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> did PED'S do pac in???, i don't think so...
checkleft
post Dec 13 2012, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 02:36 PM) *
the difference in what i saw between this marquez...and the marquez of old...he was definitely loading up more on the shots and went about setting them up better in a more economical fashion. it's exactly what nacho said they were going to do. they were still going to box smart...but this time they wanted to hurt pac. last time they were looking to out point him. it's definitely a gamble because usually when u look for the knock out u get knocked out. he kept just enough of the boxing to be elusive and set up that shot. pac was clearly much more aggressive this time around and as a result he was more reckless. a lot of freddie roach fighters are guilty of this. it's a flaw that i noticed since day one. they focus more on offense than defense.

You could say the same for marquez in that fight, his loading up and staying within range got him into trouble a few times. But it eventually paid off for him
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VJones
post Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 06:18 PM) *
great post...and exactly my thought as i watched marquez recuperate from the knockdown.


Thanks prof.

QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, Max. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, Max.


+1

There are a lot of things that my body could be pushed to do in my 20's that my latter 30's body can no longer manage. But there are also some new things that I can do that either my 20-something frame couldn't handle or that I was mentally ill-equipped for. In addition, a 30-something athlete can be physically diminished in some areas, but make up for it in their mental game. You cannot underestimate the power of will, belief, and intention. JMM was trying to knock MP out. Intent, matched with will, plus a heavy dose of underdog, is the most powerful drug I know. JMM has them in spades.

QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 08:18 AM) *
someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.


+1

Did you notice too that by the end of the 5th, PAC seemed already winded. I think the pace (that he set) was not one he could keep up. And 5 took a lot out of him. Despite Marquez having the 'broken' nose, Pac's corner was the one that seemed more anxious. By round 6, he slowed his pace and I think he was reverting to what he did with Bradley (try to win the last few seconds of each round). That's why for no really smart reason (with 10 sec left in the round), he got jumpy (overly-aggressive) and JMM capitalized.

I think the outcome would have been the same even if he escaped the 6th. Because by then, JMM had his timing down and was reading PAC effectively.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:36 PM) *
the difference in what i saw between this marquez...and the marquez of old...he was definitely loading up more on the shots and went about setting them up better in a more economical fashion. it's exactly what nacho said they were going to do. they were still going to box smart...but this time they wanted to hurt pac. last time they were looking to out point him. it's definitely a gamble because usually when u look for the knock out u get knocked out. he kept just enough of the boxing to be elusive and set up that shot. pac was clearly much more aggressive this time around and as a result he was more reckless. a lot of freddie roach fighters are guilty of this. it's a flaw that i noticed since day one. they focus more on offense than defense.


Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For both fighters. But most of the pressure was on Manny and thus his recklessness. Because Manny was the one who'd been exalted and therefore had more to prove. He was the one coming off of a lackluster performance and loss to Bradley. And truly, his agression has always played into JMM's strengths. But aggression was also the only way he could try and get a clearl win.

I think if they had both been this aggressive in the 3rd fight, we could have seen the same outcome...or atleast knockdowns from one or both men.

This post has been edited by VJones: Dec 13 2012, 09:48 PM
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VJones
post Dec 13 2012, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 10:16 PM) *
You could say the same for marquez in that fight, his loading up and staying within range got him into trouble a few times. But it eventually paid off for him


True. But Check, Marquez is such a smart fighter. Calculating in every move he makes. I never saw him in trouble. I think the 3rd fight along with his new conditioning proved to him that he could take Manny's punch at Welter. And so he was willing to engage to get Manny to be more aggressive so he could capitalize. Truth is, that strategy had been working for 3 fights...minus the loading up. He was knocking guys out with that same overhand right in sparring, so his confidence was high.

I say all that to say, PAC works off of speed and athleticism. He barrages his opponents with shots and he hits hard. But he's never been clever. His fight game is one of instinct, not intellect. And I think that's why it could be argued that though he has had the "power" to knock JMM out, he (and blame Freddie too) lacks a real plan outside of: "Just go in there and be Manny!"

I've been paying attention to what Virgil Hunter is teaching Amir Khan: how to think in the ring, why you throw certain punches, defense, survival, etc. You know, fundamental boxing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Manny has done extremely well with his natural tools, and so the fundamentals hadn't mattered until he met JMM back in 04. And top rank knew this. That's why they kept him away from JMM for so long, slick boxers, and master-counter-punchers.
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duwdu
post Dec 13 2012, 11:24 PM
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What do you say...Arum now says he would "insist" on random drug testing for a Marquez-Pacquiao V. What a pathetic figure this Bob Arum is, and what a shame after all these wasted and disparaging years!!!

And, he can't even do a proper damage control, other than make it sound as if it is his original idea (with that "insist" B.S,) and to add that any such testing would have to be under the commission that will handle the fight. God Almighty...

http://www.boxingscene.com/arum-on-board-w...arquez-5--60435

P34c3
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mgrover
post Dec 14 2012, 12:26 PM
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thing is that may make a difference, no excuses either by this but ariza said they hadn't been doing the strength and conditioning program. am sure that made the difference to his stamina.
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daprofessor
post Dec 14 2012, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM) *
Thanks prof.



+1

There are a lot of things that my body could be pushed to do in my 20's that my latter 30's body can no longer manage. But there are also some new things that I can do that either my 20-something frame couldn't handle or that I was mentally ill-equipped for. In addition, a 30-something athlete can be physically diminished in some areas, but make up for it in their mental game. You cannot underestimate the power of will, belief, and intention. JMM was trying to knock MP out. Intent, matched with will, plus a heavy dose of underdog, is the most powerful drug I know. JMM has them in spades.



+1

Did you notice too that by the end of the 5th, PAC seemed already winded. I think the pace (that he set) was not one he could keep up. And 5 took a lot out of him. Despite Marquez having the 'broken' nose, Pac's corner was the one that seemed more anxious. By round 6, he slowed his pace and I think he was reverting to what he did with Bradley (try to win the last few seconds of each round). That's why for no really smart reason (with 10 sec left in the round), he got jumpy (overly-aggressive) and JMM capitalized.

I think the outcome would have been the same even if he escaped the 6th. Because by then, JMM had his timing down and was reading PAC effectively.



Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For both fighters. But most of the pressure was on Manny and thus his recklessness. Because Manny was the one who'd been exalted and therefore had more to prove. He was the one coming off of a lackluster performance and loss to Bradley. And truly, his agression has always played into JMM's strengths. But aggression was also the only way he could try and get a clearl win.

I think if they had both been this aggressive in the 3rd fight, we could have seen the same outcome...or atleast knockdowns from one or both men.


another gem. hard to disagree with anything written. great observations. keep them coming.
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VJones
post Dec 14 2012, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (duwdu @ Dec 14 2012, 12:24 AM) *
What do you say...Arum now says he would "insist" on random drug testing for a Marquez-Pacquiao V. What a pathetic figure this Bob Arum is, and what a shame after all these wasted and disparaging years!!!

And, he can't even do a proper damage control, other than make it sound as if it is his original idea (with that "insist" B.S,) and to add that any such testing would have to be under the commission that will handle the fight. God Almighty...

http://www.boxingscene.com/arum-on-board-w...arquez-5--60435

P34c3


Arum is unconscionable. I mean, let's have OSDT for every fight. Let's change the system. But the last person I want to hear talk about drug testing after hemming, hawing, and outright refusal for the past 3 years, is Bob Arum. Actually, no member of Team Pacquiao should utter a word about it. Just shameful.

They squandered their ability to question anyone else when they sqawked at being asked to test...and then Pac had an opportunity to take up the 'cleanup the sport' mantle separate of Mayweather and still did nothing. Just shameful stuff here. But not at all surprising coming from Arum. Nothing new, really. Smh.

QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 14 2012, 01:26 PM) *
thing is that may make a difference, no excuses either by this but ariza said they hadn't been doing the strength and conditioning program. am sure that made the difference to his stamina.


Definitely. Boxing is behind the curve. Elite athletes in other sports have specialists assisting them in every area of optimization and it does make a difference. Team Pac was smart enough to hire a S&C coach, but have regulated him to being a cut man. Crazy huh? Don't know if they're not listening to Ariza because of the issues b/w him and Roach. But it's not been a smart move.

Sure, Ariza's personality can be grating...but why keep him on if they're not gonna utilize his expertise?

At this stage, you figure these guys aren't gonna learn new strategies or skills. They already know how to punch, move, block shots, avoid, control distance, space, etc. But what they can benefit from is conditioning and strength training. That can always increase.

This post has been edited by VJones: Dec 14 2012, 04:29 PM
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VJones
post Dec 14 2012, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 14 2012, 02:50 PM) *
another gem. hard to disagree with anything written. great observations. keep them coming.


Thanks again, Prof! Enjoying the great dialogue with you guys!
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daprofessor
post Dec 17 2012, 03:52 AM
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is it me? or has merchant, lampley and hbo tried to paint juan manuel marquez a cheat with their allegations/strong insinuations?

and does anyone else find it funny/conspicuous that they are singing the praises of nonito donaire who is working side by side with a known cheat(victor conte) in the sport?

they were quick to throw peterson and berto(who worked with conte) under the bus with their positive test...but really offered no explanations.

they are quick to sing vada's praises but make no mention that victor conte is part of vada.

where was this criticism/speculation when pac was knocking out and beating much bigger fighters?

should JMM pursue legal action?

what they are doing is careless, sloppy and irresponsible and should be reeled in.
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Franchize
post Dec 17 2012, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 03:52 AM) *
is it me? or has merchant, lampley and hbo tried to paint juan manuel marquez a cheat with their allegations/strong insinuations?

and does anyone else find it funny/conspicuous that they are singing the praises of nonito donaire who is working side by side with a known cheat(victor conte) in the sport?

they were quick to throw peterson and berto(who worked with conte) under the bus with their positive test...but really offered no explanations.

they are quick to sing vada's praises but make no mention that victor conte is part of vada.

where was this criticism/speculation when pac was knocking out and beating much bigger fighters?

should JMM pursue legal action?

what they are doing is careless, sloppy and irresponsible and should be reeled in.


It's definitely not just you. They preluded the replay of the fight with a whole bunch of steroid accusations. It's just sad. They are sore losers and they aren't even part of Pacquiao's camp...at least as far as I know lol. Marquez should absolutely seek legal action as his evidence of defamation was far more concrete than Pacquaio's vs Mayweather. Ever since the fight ended, the whole focus was onhow will Manny recover and is Marquez' victory tainted...as if he's been caught doing something. His test came back negative. He and Heredia welcomed blood testing without hesitation (unlike Manny) and he won the fight. HBO needs to stop taking the luster off this incredible moment in boxing history.
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