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> Russel Mora and terrible refs, absolutely hate mora
checkleft
post Nov 11 2012, 02:42 AM
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Well this thread is basically about your least favorite refs.

Watched the katsidids fight against guerrero and he was freaking terrible. Robert was holding behind the head and punching he didn't count a knockdown and he deducted two points from katsidids without any previous warning for low blows when the shot wasn't intentional. Which is ironic cause in the agbeko fight he failed to call low blows lol

What are your least favorite officials?
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Plah
post Nov 12 2012, 11:32 AM
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Mora, Cortez & Draculich
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daprofessor
post Nov 12 2012, 01:29 PM
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mora, draculich, raul caiz jr and sr., cole and jay nady all suck.

This post has been edited by daprofessor: Nov 12 2012, 09:07 PM
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Jack 1000
post Nov 13 2012, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Nov 12 2012, 12:29 PM) *
mora, draculich, raul caiz jr and sr., cole and jay nady all suck.


Good thread!

I think that there are refs that suck, but for different reasons why they suck:

Lawrence Cole: Sucks because of the fact that there is a conflict of interest because father Dick Cole runs the commission. Dick Cole was a former WBC Supervisor and ref himself. The Cole's are well-off. The family has an insurance company who's fighters have invested in this company. There are father and son teams in boxing, Larry Hazzard ran the New Jersey Commission for years- (Called the Control board.) His son Larrry Jr. is a judge and has supervised for the IBF and WBC over the years. But Hazzard NEVER worked a fight as ref where his son was part of the officiating team because he once said himself, "that's a conflict of interest, and not good for boxing.

Laurence Cole is biased toward Texas fighters and the home town guy. If he's brought in as a neutral ref, he's much better.

Jay Nady: Runs hot and cold for me, Usually Warm. He used to stop fights a little too fast, but I don't think he shows much bias.

Vic Draculich- Who I call Vic Dracula because for some reason he kind of reminds me of a human Dracula! LOL! His problem is that he's relatively inexperienced in major fights. He is there too much and in the faces of the fighters too much. (He's sort of a modern Cortez)

Joe Cortez: Finally retired. Fifteen years ago and before he was one of the best. Aging caught up to him. "Fair but firm" would watch over the fighters like a Mother Hen and put himself in the spot-light. In later years, legendary ref Arther Mercante Sr. did the same thing. Compare that to Arther's fights from the 60's to 70's or Cortez from the 70's to early 90's. You only saw him when you needed to see them. He fell for Lorenszo's acting con job in the fist Soto fight with that bullshit DQ. Probably one of the worst calls in the history of refing! Thankfully the WBC upon review ordered a rematch and declared the first fight a no-contest. Nevdada refused to change Coretez's DQ call

Pat Russell: Used to be one of my favorite refs and I agree with his stoppage of the Rios-Alverado fight. He fucked up badly, very badly in Hopkins-Dawson I, and will probably be remembered more for that aweful call than all the years and fights he did right. He's a good judge too.

Russell Mora: Has improved since the Mares-Agbeko I outrage with all of those low blows. But is known as a Golden Boy favored ref, even before the Mares-Agbeko fight

I see a problem with the bias of California, Texas, and New Mexico protecting the star fighters of Mexican and Latin American origin. And the WBC being ruled by a Mexican President falling into the promotional interest of Golden Boy Promotions by "protecting" their stars. I think if you put Raul Caiz Sr and Raul Caiz Jr. in a neutral setting, they would be fine. But bloodlines and heritage run deep, in addition to crowd hostility if these guys go against the home town hero. Native Latin American/Mexican judges and refs will protect their undefeated Latin-American/Mexican fighter, sometimes very subtly.

I am not sure that all of this can be attributed to coincidence. But the answer to greatly reduce bias. Bring in neutral officials, especially for the big world title fights! However, these commissions are often so insistent on using their own officials. Having a Mexican Ref or judge against a Mexican undefeated fighter in California, Texas, Mexico, Arizona could bring out bias and often does. However, if you take the refs like Raul Caiz Sr and Raul Caiz Jr, and put them in East Coast venues, they can be fair.

A British ref working a fight involving a British undefeated superstar, same problem. And how many times are Ricky Hatton's shoelaces gonna come untied in his comeback fight? That fights almost a waste to watch because the handwriting's on the wall.

Boxing has gotten more international judges for the big fights. I think Commissions need to use more outside refs. That will help reduce the bias.

Jack
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checkleft
post Nov 13 2012, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Nov 13 2012, 01:14 AM) *
Good thread!

I think that there are refs that suck, but for different reasons why they suck:

Lawrence Cole: Sucks because of the fact that there is a conflict of interest because father Dick Cole runs the commission. Dick Cole was a former WBC Supervisor and ref himself. The Cole's are well-off. The family has an insurance company who's fighters have invested in this company. There are father and son teams in boxing, Larry Hazzard ran the New Jersey Commission for years- (Called the Control board.) His son Larrry Jr. is a judge and has supervised for the IBF and WBC over the years. But Hazzard NEVER worked a fight as ref where his son was part of the officiating team because he once said himself, "that's a conflict of interest, and not good for boxing.

Laurence Cole is biased toward Texas fighters and the home town guy. If he's brought in as a neutral ref, he's much better.

Jay Nady: Runs hot and cold for me, Usually Warm. He used to stop fights a little too fast, but I don't think he shows much bias.

Vic Draculich- Who I call Vic Dracula because for some reason he kind of reminds me of a human Dracula! LOL! His problem is that he's relatively inexperienced in major fights. He is there too much and in the faces of the fighters too much. (He's sort of a modern Cortez)

Joe Cortez: Finally retired. Fifteen years ago and before he was one of the best. Aging caught up to him. "Fair but firm" would watch over the fighters like a Mother Hen and put himself in the spot-light. In later years, legendary ref Arther Mercante Sr. did the same thing. Compare that to Arther's fights from the 60's to 70's or Cortez from the 70's to early 90's. You only saw him when you needed to see them. He fell for Lorenszo's acting con job in the fist Soto fight with that bullshit DQ. Probably one of the worst calls in the history of refing! Thankfully the WBC upon review ordered a rematch and declared the first fight a no-contest. Nevdada refused to change Coretez's DQ call

Pat Russell: Used to be one of my favorite refs and I agree with his stoppage of the Rios-Alverado fight. He fucked up badly, very badly in Hopkins-Dawson I, and will probably be remembered more for that aweful call than all the years and fights he did right. He's a good judge too.

Russell Mora: Has improved since the Mares-Agbeko I outrage with all of those low blows. But is known as a Golden Boy favored ref, even before the Mares-Agbeko fight

I see a problem with the bias of California, Texas, and New Mexico protecting the star fighters of Mexican and Latin American origin. And the WBC being ruled by a Mexican President falling into the promotional interest of Golden Boy Promotions by "protecting" their stars. I think if you put Raul Caiz Sr and Raul Caiz Jr. in a neutral setting, they would be fine. But bloodlines and heritage run deep, in addition to crowd hostility if these guys go against the home town hero. Native Latin American/Mexican judges and refs will protect their undefeated Latin-American/Mexican fighter, sometimes very subtly.

I am not sure that all of this can be attributed to coincidence. But the answer to freatly reduce bias. Bring in neutral officials, especially for the big world title fights! However, these commissions are often so insistent on using their own officials. Having a Mexican Ref or judge against a Mexican undefeated fighter in California, Texas, Mexico, Arizona could bring out bias and often does. However, if you take the refs like Raul Caiz Sr and Raul Caiz Jr, and put them in East Coast venues, they can be fair.

A British ref working a fight involving a British undefated superstar, same problem. And how many times are Ricky Hatton's showlaces gonna come untied in his comeback fight? That fights almost a waste to watch because the handwritting's on the wall.

Boxing has gotten more international judges for the big fights. I think Commissions need to use more outside refs. That will help reduce the bias.

Jack

Awesome post! Totally agree
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Cshel86
post Nov 13 2012, 09:38 AM
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Pat Russell is an, but I'm starting to forgive him nowadays. His only problem is that he'll stop the fight before a guy even hits the canvas. If a cat falls down and legs or knees to do that weird bending move before they hit the canvas, then it's cool to stop it....they usually don't recover from those types of knockdowns anyway.

I wasn't well with his stoppage of the Rios/Alvarado fight but, but hell, you guys know how pissed I get with fighters who refuse to take a fuckin' knee. I've lost my shit in plenty of threads because a guy just refused to take a knee.

I NEVER want to hear Cortez's voice again...sucks how they have him on Showtime now. They always seem to ask the convenient question of whether or not the fight needs to be stopped, and he always happily responds with either a "yes" or "the ref needs to look closely and be in position to stop it".

I just hope that we don't have a shitload of quick stoppages. I cant remember off the top of my head, who was the ref in JMM/Pac 1? The guy's a hero in my book. Oh wait, it was Cortez's dusty...must have been the ending of his glory days, but he's a hero for not stopping it...he'll forever get a pass for that. JMM would never be who is today, had that fight been stopped.
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Franchize
post Nov 13 2012, 11:20 AM
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I think Cortez wasn't as bad as people say but he still has to be on this list. I also don't like Jay Nady at all.
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daprofessor
post Nov 13 2012, 02:02 PM
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i think cortez got the soto/lorenzo call right. soto hit the guy twice when he was down and one was behind the head. doesn't get any more blatant than that. soto deserved the dq and i wasn't surprised that the wbc overturned the foul of a mexican fighter.

i also think pat russell got the bhop/dawson call in the first fight right. bhop was clearly faking injury. he has a history of this...and russell was aware of it.

mora, caiz jr, sr, nady, draculich (cheating p.o.s who i've had a personal experience with) and cole will always suck in my eyes.

while we're at it...let's add the ref from adrade/bute 1 and the other ref from abraham/miranda 1. they're both pieces of shit too.

great refs....

tony weeks, steve smoger and kenny bayless are the best!!!
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Jack 1000
post Nov 13 2012, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Nov 13 2012, 01:02 PM) *
i think cortez got the soto/lorenzo call right. soto hit the guy twice when he was down and one was behind the head. doesn't get any more blatant than that. soto deserved the dq and i wasn't surprised that the wbc overturned the foul of a mexican fighter.

i also think pat russell got the bhop/dawson call in the first fight right. bhop was clearly faking injury. he has a history of this...and russell was aware of it.

mora, caiz jr, sr, nady, draculich (cheating p.o.s who i've had a personal experience with) and cole will always suck in my eyes.

while we're at it...let's add the ref from adrade/bute 1 and the other ref from abraham/miranda 1. they're both pieces of shit too.

great refs....

tony weeks, steve smoger and kenny bayless are the best!!!


What's wrong with Dracula? (Vic Draculich) I find him to not let fighters fight inside, but not as bad as the others. What was your personal experience with him?

Jack
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Jack 1000
post Nov 13 2012, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE
tony weeks, steve smoger and kenny bayless are the best!!!


Agree! Smoger's only blunder was coaching Lou Saverese to get up when he should have just been counting over him. Forgot what fight that was.

Jack
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