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> Ortiz's future after the fight
duwdu
post Aug 23 2011, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:32 AM) *
Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.

So you want the guy to like punishment and not have to fight on the back foot (which you obviously insinuate as "running",) and may be become incapacitated in his old age, just because you'd pay $60 to watch him fight... hmm. As for your corollary to that/thought of Floyd ever quiting, you've obviously posted with your heart, which is not necessarily a bad thing... especially so if only wishes were horses...

P34c3

This post has been edited by duwdu: Aug 23 2011, 12:05 PM
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 12:04 PM) *
Floyd was hurt much worse by Corley as well as Mosley, he stayed right in the pocket and fought. Emanuel Agustus gave him a rough fight, he stayed right in there and slugged it out and stopped him. Floyd is no coward, not to say that if he had to move to survive a rough moment he wouldn't. The guy is one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen, he does what he needs to win. He's never quit, the guy broke his hand took a knee and won the fight with one hand. Obviously you need to spend a little youtube time revisiting the guys career, at least boxrec time to realize he's 42-0 with no losses, obviously he's never quit. Supposedly he tore his rotator cuff and still moved up and fought Castillo, had a bad performance and immediately rematched him.

No need to ride dick but at least give the guy his just due


He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.
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EAlbian
post Aug 23 2011, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM) *
He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.



Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?
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duwdu
post Aug 23 2011, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:03 PM) *
He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.

So how does this all lead you, at this stage, to associate a fighter of Floyd's pedigree with the most heinous crime in boxing - quitting? Why don't you just care to draw a decent line when you criticize an accomplished fighter?

P34c3
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?


Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (duwdu @ Aug 23 2011, 01:22 PM) *
So how does this all lead you, at this stage, to associate a fighter of Floyd's pedigree with the most heinous crime in boxing - quitting? Why don't you just care to draw a decent line when you criticize an accomplished fighter?

P34c3


Why are you feigning incredulity? I'm only taking Floyd's own comments at face value. He doesn't want to take punishment. One scenario on September 17 is that he can no longer move and dance like he use to, and if he finds himself on the deck a couple times, takes big shots consistently, and is forced to stand and bang with Ortiz, you think his 100 million dollar ass is gonna stick it out and try to win? He might not pull a Duran, but he'll seek to preserve his brain before trying to win a slugging match against a 24 year old.

Having said that, I think his conditioning is too good and I don't think Ortiz' punches are going to be anything he can't physically handle. At worst this will be Jones-Tarver I.

This post has been edited by Eighty88Eight: Aug 23 2011, 12:53 PM
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duwdu
post Aug 23 2011, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.

It's all good that you're now off your "quitting" high horse. However, you're very good with condescending words to describe the actions you yourself admit as being smart, so one has to always look past your use of language.

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duwdu
post Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Why are you feigning incredulity? I'm only taking Floyd's own comments at face value. He doesn't want to take punishment. One scenario on September 17 is that he can no longer move and dance like he use to, and if he finds himself on the deck a couple times, takes big shots consistently, and is forced to stand and bang with Ortiz, you think his 100 million dollar ass is gonna stick it out and try to win? He might not pull a Duran, but he'll seek to preserve his brain before trying to win a slugging match against a 24 year old.

Having said that, I think his conditioning is too good and I don't think Ortiz' punches are going to be anything he can't physically handle. At worst this will be Jones-Tarver I.

The fact that Floyd doesn't like punishment doesn't mean he wouldn't take it once in a long while to preserve his integrity, like he indeed has done even in recent past. In fact, I would want to think that's one of his strategies that inform his lay offs - to rebuild his elements, but I may be wrong.

Otherwise your arguments are ok.

P34c3
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mgrover
post Aug 23 2011, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 05:26 PM) *
he didn't look rusty after 9mo off fighting Mosley either, who was the #1 WW and coming off a huge win. Mayweather chose to stay out of the ring and if he loses he gets no sympathy from me. 41 have tried and 41 have failed, if 42 prevails than 42 was better on September 17th


he didnt look rusty against mosley but that shot he took, I don't think he would of taken it if it wasnt for a lay off. after he adjusted for that shot by throwing a left hook to ensure mosley backed off.
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EAlbian
post Aug 23 2011, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM) *
Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.


I said he clearly hurt his hand. Didn't say he clearly won the round. The fight wasn't clearly won. I scored it a draw and could make an argument for either guy. I think Floyd won the 12th round, watch it again, Castillo threw punches but they were all arm punches and nothing landed cleanly. Mayweather landed the cleaner punches. I thought Compu-box did a terrible job in this fight(its just a guy clicking a button) and didn't see a lot of Castillo's punches landing
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