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> The Decline of Manny Pacquiao, When??
KOpower
post Feb 18 2013, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 17 2013, 11:22 PM) *
If disrespecting me has to be included in your post then I don't respect it. You see it how you want to keyboard warrior. I call it how I see it. The only idiot or idiotic thing here is your homotional attack on my personal opinion. Now try again, if you can't rsepect me and my opinion and offer a rebuttal in a intelligent manner the don't quote me

LOL at you trying to discredit Nazim's plan. He beat Shane bad, I guess that;s why he was turning Manny all damn night and couldn't even finish him. I'll agree that he crushed Hatton, that 2nd round KO was brutal and even though I was pulling for Hatton int hat comeback fight, deep down I wished he'd stayed retired. That's the kind of punch you never recover from in the ring. Just like the one JMM hit Manny's ass with. Keep Manny's dick in your mouth and stay off mine!!



Like I said, I probably pulled for the other guy in 90% of the MP fights I have seen. I don't dislike him...but I certainly don't like him either. I do respect him. He is a helluva a fighter. He is one of the best fighters of this era. He has went out and beaten TONS of top opposition. Like I said, the man is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He moved up and fought guys MUCH bigger. He fought world champions in their prime and faded legends. He also fought all types of styles. His run is/was EXTREMELY impressive. If you say otherwise, then you aren't based in reality.
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mrchitown
post Feb 18 2013, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 18 2013, 09:13 PM) *
Like I said, I probably pulled for the other guy in 90% of the MP fights I have seen. I don't dislike him...but I certainly don't like him either. I do respect him. He is a helluva a fighter. He is one of the best fighters of this era. He has went out and beaten TONS of top opposition. Like I said, the man is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He moved up and fought guys MUCH bigger. He fought world champions in their prime and faded legends. He also fought all types of styles. His run is/was EXTREMELY impressive. If you say otherwise, then you aren't based in reality.


Call me 3-D then lol. I like him, and respect him also. What he did for boxing in terms of the popularity and the fans he brought in was nothing short of spectacular. And I agree that his fights with Morales, Barerra, and JMM(the earlier ones) were good performances on his part. But once he started stepping up it became watered down. He beat a weight drained DLH, Roach even said he saw the IV marks in his arms. He won but I can't really give too much credit for him fighting someone who shouldn't have been fighting at that weight

He beat Cotto, battered Cotto actually. A Cotto who got pummeled by Margarito and who should've lost his title to Clottey that June. He beat Margarito who was slower then him, waaay slower then him, but as I stated before, there were some rds where Margarito got him on the ropes and he bandged to the body and in one particular rd, Manny looked hurt. He beat Clottey who didn't put up a fight and hasn't been seen since. I think he lost the 3rd bout with JMM and he was robbed against Bradley but he fought in spurts

The reason why I say his decline started after the Cotto fight is because in my observation he lost something. His performances became less and less impressive. I thought he was going to finish Shane honestly but Nazim told him to keep turning him and that definitely affected Manny's offense. And he gets major credit from some for beating Shane, when Shane lost decisively to Mayweather and had a draw with Mora before the Pacquiao fight. I give him credit, he won those fights no matter what the circumstances were, he came out victorious. No matter if there were catch weights, weight drained or coming off losses, he won. But from the timer he struck superstardom, I don't see it as impressive. Those fights I just mentioned, when you look at it, the sizzle was taken out of them. I think he benefited from good matchmaking after he became Arum's bottom bitch. But he won so I give him credit for piling up the wins but I'm not going to say I was impressed when looking at his run from 08 up until now because I'd be lying and that I won't do
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sduck
post Feb 22 2013, 06:57 AM
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There is no decline for him as a fighter, but for him as a Sport's Icon.
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ks1
post Feb 22 2013, 04:50 PM
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For his sake, I hope Pac winds up with some money when it's all said and done. His career is definitely "on the clock" right now. A KO like the one he took from JM usually ends the competitive part of a fighters career and, if he goes forward, more often than not, it's not a good outcome.

This post has been edited by ks1: Feb 22 2013, 05:02 PM
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KOpower
post Feb 22 2013, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 18 2013, 11:55 PM) *
Call me 3-D then lol. I like him, and respect him also. What he did for boxing in terms of the popularity and the fans he brought in was nothing short of spectacular. And I agree that his fights with Morales, Barerra, and JMM(the earlier ones) were good performances on his part. But once he started stepping up it became watered down. He beat a weight drained DLH, Roach even said he saw the IV marks in his arms. He won but I can't really give too much credit for him fighting someone who shouldn't have been fighting at that weight

He beat Cotto, battered Cotto actually. A Cotto who got pummeled by Margarito and who should've lost his title to Clottey that June. He beat Margarito who was slower then him, waaay slower then him, but as I stated before, there were some rds where Margarito got him on the ropes and he bandged to the body and in one particular rd, Manny looked hurt. He beat Clottey who didn't put up a fight and hasn't been seen since. I think he lost the 3rd bout with JMM and he was robbed against Bradley but he fought in spurts

The reason why I say his decline started after the Cotto fight is because in my observation he lost something. His performances became less and less impressive. I thought he was going to finish Shane honestly but Nazim told him to keep turning him and that definitely affected Manny's offense. And he gets major credit from some for beating Shane, when Shane lost decisively to Mayweather and had a draw with Mora before the Pacquiao fight. I give him credit, he won those fights no matter what the circumstances were, he came out victorious. No matter if there were catch weights, weight drained or coming off losses, he won. But from the timer he struck superstardom, I don't see it as impressive. Those fights I just mentioned, when you look at it, the sizzle was taken out of them. I think he benefited from good matchmaking after he became Arum's bottom bitch. But he won so I give him credit for piling up the wins but I'm not going to say I was impressed when looking at his run from 08 up until now because I'd be lying and that I won't do



He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.
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Dolimite
post Feb 22 2013, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 03:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.


Ricky Hatton was on cocaine and depressed. he also was outclassed and destroyed by Mayweather. Oscar was done. Clottely gets as much creditability as Jeremy Lin being a great point guard. Or Romo being a fantastic QB. Stats do not win championships. Clottely hasn't fought since that fight for a darn good reason. Margarito was no competition for Manny. His style was tailored made for Manny come on. That 6-2 record should really be 5-3 at best. Actually 4-4. He couldn't knock out Shane Mosley or cut the ring. He has no idea how to fight a boxer which is why he could never truly put Marquez away. Bradley fight was BS but it was a lot closer than what HBO cheerleaders reported. Bradley made Manny look very average. When Manny could not hurt him there was no plan B and that is what has always bothered me about Manny, no plan B.
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mrchitown
post Feb 22 2013, 07:55 PM
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@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO
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daprofessor
post Feb 22 2013, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 07:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

oscar was at a weight he hadn't been at in 9yrs and he had a new trainer. huge advantage pacquiao. not impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

ricky hatton was a shot fighter who had to be saved controversially from getting beat by juan lazcano. he also was only allowed to gain 5lbs after the weigh-in. huge advantage pac...not impressive.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

cotto didn't have a real corner in the fight...catchweight plus the recent beatdown...advantage pac. decent win.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

clottey used the diarrhea excuse...plus his trainer couldn't get a visa to come to the u.s. what ever the case...it was clear to me clottey had no intention of making it a fight. he busted up pac without even trying.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

margarito..coming off a recent beat down...new trainer and catch weight. advantage pac. i wasn't impressed.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

i wonder if shane was allowed to fully hydrate in that fight. i've seen him take big shots from stronger punchers. suspect at best.

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

how about...unless you really understand how rounds are scored...i had the fight a draw. a win either way is not inconceivable.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.


smoke and mirrors...mirage...take your pick.

1. weight stipulations
2. trainer issues
3. coming off a recent beat down

those are all major things to be concerned about and definitely tilt odds in the favor of one fighter. was all of that planned or by accident? we'll probably never know...but the truth remains. with the exception of the cotto fight...all of those went exactly as i thought they would.

what more could he have done? there were opportunities for him to fight other guys such as zahir raheem, joan guzman and nate campbell, that would have convinced me of his 'greatness.' it's not his fault he didn't face those guys and in all honesty, if i was his promoter/manager or trainer...i would have chosen the same path. there's no question the three match ups i named would have posed serious problems for him and possibly made him look human. he matched up better with stand in the pocket fighters who want to trade. some of those guys happened to be some of the biggest names in the sport...and he got them at just the right times. don't think i am picking on pac with this...because i am not. i can do the same for just about any fighter out there. it's not to discredit their accomplishments imo. it's more about putting things in their proper context/perspective than anything. i've done similar things for floyds accomplishments as well. they never go over well with fighter fans.

This post has been edited by daprofessor: Feb 22 2013, 08:52 PM
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Dolimite
post Feb 22 2013, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 05:55 PM) *
@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO


Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.
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daprofessor
post Feb 22 2013, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 09:46 PM) *
Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.


damn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

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