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> The Decline of Manny Pacquiao, When??
sduck
post Feb 22 2013, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 06:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.

Posts like this really make me question some people's knowledge of the sport, honestly...

I don't mean to sound like a douche, but stuff like what you said with Clottey, I mean come on now...

This post has been edited by sduck: Feb 22 2013, 10:00 PM
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KOpower
post Feb 22 2013, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 22 2013, 08:44 PM) *
smoke and mirrors...mirage...take your pick.

1. weight stipulations
2. trainer issues
3. coming off a recent beat down

those are all major things to be concerned about and definitely tilt odds in the favor of one fighter. was all of that planned or by accident? we'll probably never know...but the truth remains. with the exception of the cotto fight...all of those went exactly as i thought they would.

what more could he have done? there were opportunities for him to fight other guys such as zahir raheem, joan guzman and nate campbell, that would have convinced me of his 'greatness.' it's not his fault he didn't face those guys and in all honesty, if i was his promoter/manager or trainer...i would have chosen the same path. there's no question the three match ups i named would have posed serious problems for him and possibly made him look human. he matched up better with stand in the pocket fighters who want to trade. some of those guys happened to be some of the biggest names in the sport...and he got them at just the right times. don't think i am picking on pac with this...because i am not. i can do the same for just about any fighter out there. it's not to discredit their accomplishments imo. it's more about putting things in their proper context/perspective than anything. i've done similar things for floyds accomplishments as well. they never go over well with fighter fans.


I will give you credit for at least telling me what more Manny could have done. It at least put a smile on my face...seeing you mention guys like Zahir Raheem and Nate Campbell.

You can nit-pick on anyone. Nobody is matched up against stud after stud every fight. Manny was a smaller fighter and fought almost every big challenge at the smaller weight. Going 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio is outstanding and 4 of those 6 wins were dominant. We can talk about the close fights with Marquez, but Manny has a legit beef about the way the 1st fight was scored seeing as how one official refused to give Manny credit for a KD. All 3 of those close fights could have gone either way so having it 2-0-1 in favor of Manny is certainly not an injustice.

Now if you want to discredit everything Manny has done since moving up, be my guest. But you have to give him credit for beating Josh Clottey and Tim Bradley. Those were 2 guys he fought at a normal weight. Those were 2 guys that were roughly in their prime. Moving up and fighting (beating) those 2 guys after doing what he did at the smaller weight is impressive. Then you can give him whatever credit you want for wins against Margarito, Cotto, Hatton, and Mosley.

Manny is not as good as Mayweather or Jones but he is one of the best of this era. I give the little man tons of credit for taking on everyone (apparently other than Raheem and Campbell) at the lower weights and then moving up to fight big name P4P guys that were way above his normal weight limit.
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KOpower
post Feb 22 2013, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 07:55 PM) *
@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO



MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.
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mgrover
post Feb 22 2013, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 23 2013, 03:51 AM) *
MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.


It's not what this board has to say but the fact many fights have * next to them. I'll leave with this, it's much easier to go up in weight than to go down. I mean how weaken was Cotto since he did some damage on the ropes and played into character fading down the stretch
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mrchitown
post Feb 23 2013, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 07:46 PM) *
Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.


I unfortunately saw that, that loss cut me deep
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mrchitown
post Feb 23 2013, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 09:51 PM) *
MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.


LOL are we really going the black route now?? Please DO NOT go there!

And I only brought up his popularity because it's a fact that his accomplishments and his abilities are blown up by casual fans and those who vaulted him into stardom.. He is an all time great and nothing I can do will take away from him going into the HOF, nor would I want it to. But I deal with facts, and the facts are that he had an advantage in the fights that solidified his greatness.

You never heard me say he wasn't good, I just think he's not "as good" as many make him out to be. I'm not some overweight slob who gets his rocks off by hating someone I don't know. I'm not a fanatic, there is nothing I have against Manny or any fighter, I just like to deal in truth and some don't want to admit that his wins from 08 til now aren't as good as they want to believe. My knowledge of the sport of boxing runs deep but my pursuit and demand of truth runs even deeper.

I refuse to alter my words to fit something that is dishonest and in this case, Pacquiao's fights in the timeframe I mentioned should all have * next to them. Now if you attribute that to me and other members on this board having some axe to grind with someone who we've never met, then by all means do so. But like I said before, if you hearing it from multiple sources then their is something to it. There are people on other forums who feel the same way I do and some that feel the way you do. Their's something to be said for both arguments here
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Dolimite
post Feb 23 2013, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 09:09 PM) *
I unfortunately saw that, that loss cut me deep


I did not understand that game what so ever. Just give the MVP to James and let it be done! Hell Chris Bosh even had a monster game. Noah looked slow and uninterested and Carlos Bozer I just hate at times. They could not make a shot if their life depended on it! But yawl will meet again.

QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 09:23 PM) *
LOL are we really going the black route now?? Please DO NOT go there!

And I only brought up his popularity because it's a fact that his accomplishments and his abilities are blown up by casual fans and those who vaulted him into stardom.. He is an all time great and nothing I can do will take away from him going into the HOF, nor would I want it to. But I deal with facts, and the facts are that he had an advantage in the fights that solidified his greatness.

You never heard me say he wasn't good, I just think he's not "as good" as many make him out to be. I'm not some overweight slob who gets his rocks off by hating someone I don't know. I'm not a fanatic, there is nothing I have against Manny or any fighter, I just like to deal in truth and some don't want to admit that his wins from 08 til now aren't as good as they want to believe. My knowledge of the sport of boxing runs deep but my pursuit and demand of truth runs even deeper.

I refuse to alter my words to fit something that is dishonest and in this case, Pacquiao's fights in the timeframe I mentioned should all have * next to them. Now if you attribute that to me and other members on this board having some axe to grind with someone who we've never met, then by all means do so. But like I said before, if you hearing it from multiple sources then their is something to it. There are people on other forums who feel the same way I do and some that feel the way you do. Their's something to be said for both arguments here

+1 I don't get why we have to hate a certain boxer just because we are looking at his career critically and not with rose color HBO commentary glasses. Catch weights, dehydration clauses, not wanting extra testing, not facing prime opposition all play a part for me in evaluating Manny's career. I do not hate the guy but the love and accolades he has received are more do to his popularity than his skill set. I have criticized Floyd on some of his opposition but Floyd never asked for key stipulations for his fights. I just think it is difficult to evaluate Manny without being called a Floyd lover or a Pac basher. Pac is an exciting fighter but he is shaky on somethings. His opposition could have been better but he worked with what he was given.

This post has been edited by Dolimite: Feb 23 2013, 12:38 AM
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mrchitown
post Feb 23 2013, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 11:37 PM) *
I did not understand that game what so ever. Just give the MVP to James and let it be done! Hell Chris Bosh even had a monster game. Noah looked slow and uninterested and Carlos Bozer I just hate at times. They could not make a shot if their life depended on it! But yawl will meet again.


+1 I don't get why we have to hate a certain boxer just because we are looking at his career critically and not with rose color HBO commentary glasses. Catch weights, dehydration clauses, not wanting extra testing, not facing prime opposition all play a part for me in evaluating Manny's career. I do not hate the guy but the love and accolades he has received are more do to his popularity than his skill set. I have criticized Floyd on some of his opposition but Floyd never asked for key stipulations for his fights. I just think it is difficult to evaluate Manny without being called a Floyd lover or a Pac basher. Pac is an exciting fighter but he is shaky on somethings. His opposition could have been better but he worked with what he was given.


I wish someone would KO Boozer already, he's a disappointment

Agreed also, I don't have issues with any fighter or any other athlete. I'm just expressing my opinion and when one looks objectively at the monstrous streak Manny went on, it is riddled with question marks. We can say the same about Floyd to an extent, RJJ, and other boxers throughout history. However, this thread isn't about them. It's about Manny and his wins the last few yrs have to be scrutinized in a sense.
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mgrover
post Feb 23 2013, 06:26 AM
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I don't get why people make a massive deal out of catch weights. It was 2 fights. I agree there shouldn't of been a title on the line.
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KOpower
post Feb 23 2013, 10:13 AM
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I think it is important to find out where you guys that think Manny is overrated feel he deserves to be ranked among this era of fighters. Mayweather is better and I don't think many people will argue. Some people will say Marquez is better. That is a legitimate claim. I still give Manny a solid edge b/c I don't think Marquez would be able to move up and fight the guys Manny fought and have the same success. After those 2, it depends on how far you want to stretch this "era" to. You can include Roy Jones or Bernard Hopkins. If you move it up another 10 or so years then you can include Ward. Manny is still a Top-10 fighter over a 20 or 30 year stretch. That is amazing and that makes him legendary. You can also put him in the Top-5 with no real problem.

I look at Manny as light-weight fighter who fought and beat amazing opposition at the smaller weights....just about cleaning that opposition out. He then moved up to fight a bunch of name p4p guys and whipped them all. That is how I will remember him. He had an amazing run and made a bunch of amazing and exciting fights. He is absolutely one of the best of his era.

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