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> DELAHOYA SAYS MAYWEATHER AFRAID OF ALVAREZ, afraid to fight him???
KOpower
post Apr 9 2013, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (VJones @ Apr 9 2013, 01:36 PM) *
Agreed. DLH is acting as promoter and invoking the "Floyd is scared" mantra, perfected by Arum to create a buzz for his fighter. But I'll add (as others have suggested) that there is certainly no love lost between DLH and FM. There is a very real jealousy and dislike for Mayweather on the part of Oscar that he finds difficult to hide at times. Oscar made a career as "the golden boy", carrying the burden of a 'perfect' persona -- a good and wholesome guy; while his real life vices and strong urges threatened to topple his kingdom. In essence, he couldn't do what he wanted to do. He felt shackled and stifled. And now, Mayweather has out earned and over-shadowed him, while more or less doing whatever he wants to. That rankles Oscar to no end.

On Floyd's part, his dislike of Oscar goes back to Top Rank, and the disparity of treatment by Arum of both men. Floyd has always disliked Oscar for being duplicitous. If you ask Floyd, he'll tell you Oscar is a fake. Because the truth is, nearly everyone in boxing knew what Oscar's life outside the ring was like. Frankly it resembled Floyd's, but with even more excess, plus drugs and drinking. Everyone knew. And everyone (Arum, HBO, Media) helped cover it up. And that rankled Floyd to no end.



You have a great misunderstanding of the how's, why's, and when's of PPV. But I think Cshel has done a great job in addressing some of it. I'll simply add that 1. Networks are big on statistics. They don't do things for kicks and giggles. 2. PPV is a money-making ordeal. It's not about exposure for a fighter. Its not about supposition. It's about proven numbers. 3. PPV requires millions in advertising, fees, etc., which the network is partly responsible for. 4. Networks are not in the business of losing money, so if it doesn't make dollars, then it doesn't make sense to do. This is why Canelo has yet to have a PPV of his own. He is not ready. He has yet to have a breakout performance when he had the stage and the casual fans on the undercard of FM's ticket. No one is clamoring to PAY to VIEW this kid. Not yet. The undercard of a PPV star is where you can make your mark towards becoming a star within your own right. That was his time to shine. And obviously, the statistics collected by the networks show that his star isn't bright enough to make him PPV worthy. Not yet.

I think it's reckless to hear someone suggest that an unproven and up and coming young star is somehow responsible for the PPV numbers of a proven, PPV record-holder. It's just madness. Stop listening to Dan Rafael. He's a shill and a hack and writes to his emotions.

Even a Miguel Cotto (and Shane Mosely) proven stars (significantly more popular with the casual, PPV buying fan) don't register much in terms of PPV numbers on a Mayeather card, much less Canelo Alvarez...? SMH

Networks are not emotional or subjective. It's business. Therefore it's all about the numbers. If Canelo Alvarez was capable of putting up (like Chavez Jr.) a few hundred-thousand buys on his own...he would have headlined his own PPV, two fights ago.



Canelo was going to fight on PPV this past summer, but the fight with Williams didn't go through and the fight with Kirkland didn't go through. That left Canelo with Ortiz, but then Ortiz lost. All of those fights were going to be PPV....but the opponent just didn't handle business or got injured.

I disagree with you about a fighter like Canelo continuing to fight on the Mayweather's undercard. That is not how you go about building your reputation. Canelo vs Trout is not undercard material and at this point Canelo is not an undercard fighter. It's that simple. Canelo was ok with fighting his biggest fight on Floyd's undercard if a guarantee was in place (provided both fighters won), but Floyd didn't want to commit. At that point there is no reason for Canelo to fight on a Floyd Mayweather PPV event. I don't see why that is so unreasonable to so many on this board.

I have no problem with Floyd not wanting to fight Canelo this fall. IMO Floyd is just a once a year fighter. I don't see him fighting in the fall. If he does, I think he faces Berto, Alexander, or even a rematch with Judah if Judah beats Garcia. I don't think Floyd has the desire to be a consistent fighter anymore and THAT is why he doesn't want to lock himself in.
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KOpower
post Apr 9 2013, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Apr 9 2013, 11:21 AM) *
Allow me to explain the two bold points...

That was floating around, but I don't remember Floyd mentioning it, but I could be wrong. I remember him saying that he will fight in May and September, but I guess Oscar got the happy pants and inserted Canelo's name into that September slot.

Now, the second point is what ruined this whole "deal" a few weeks ago. How does this sound?...Canelo tries to "offer" Floyd an undercard fight, an "explosive" undercard fight, by taking on Trout for May 4th. NOW, why would Canelo go off and give Floyd an ultimatum, when this whole "both winners fight each other in September" deal was already verbally agreed upon?

Maybe it's because he knew that he would get his ass kicked by Trout on May 4th. Think about it, would a Trout ass-whoopin' be as bad, when you already have a lofty payday set up with Floyd 4 months later? What sense does that make? So you're telling me that Canelo wasn't going to fight ANYBODY on May 4th or April 20th, until a fight with floyd was signed?

I mean this dude (Canelo) DOES have a careerto follow through with, so why is Floyd's decision of him fighting Trout, holding him up? What if Canelo was fighting Angulo on May 4th, would he be begging for a signed agreement to fight in September...or is the thought of losing to Trout, that makes him want that guarantee?

What if Canelo/Trout fought on May 4th, Trout beat him, but the September contract was already signed? How would that look? The guy who Floyd was supposed to be fighting, got beat, but the winner didn't get his shot at Floyd? Sounds like some serious doubt was going on with Canelo's team.


What is the alternative for Canelo? I mean really...do you honestly think he should just become Floyd's bitch and fight on his undercard until Floyd deems him worthy? I don't think so. Canelo is going his own way and I think it's good for both guys. There are MANY good fights for Canelo. Trout is LEGIT, Sergio Martinez is out there and a fight with Cotto would be HUGE. Canelo vs Guerro could be exciting and Kirkland is still out there. Hello, Canelo vs Berto or Thurman could be great.

It is time for Canelo to stop fighting on Mayweather undercards.
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KOpower
post Apr 9 2013, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Apr 9 2013, 10:59 AM) *
Stop it with the numbers stuff. If anything, we can say that more people bout the card because his opponent, and not this "fluctuated" star power of his. Answer this, before ordering this card, how many people knew Shane compared to Canelo? There's your answer.

Again, I'll compare Canelo and Julio's HBO views from 2011 and 2012...views don't equate to buys, sorry. I'd watch Golovkin fight any day of the week, but I sure as hell didn't buy his recent low-budget PPV against Ishida, regardless of the fact that it was nowhere near $45-$70.

So...Julio's miiiiilions of viewers equated to how many PPV buys in the biggest fight of his life?! Around 400K?! Stop it man. If Floyd fought on Showtime Championship next weekend for FREE, then Im sure their view rate for that night would be more than his recent 1.5M BUYS. Right? I'm sure people would loooove to see Floyd (to win or lose) for free, but not many are willing to cough up $70.

Answer this, how many people do you think would be willing to PAY anywhere from $45-$70 to see Canelo fight Shane Mosley? I'll wait. They were PUSHING Canelo's fight, hell, you see that they aired it a week later on HBO when they replayed Mayweather/Cotto. That fight wasn't that big to drive up sales bro, sorry.

Let's be real here, Canelo can't GIVE anybody AYTHING, so for you to say that Canelo was willing to GIVE Floyd the Trout fight on his undercard, is laughable. De La Homo's hand (and probably something else) is up Canelo's ass and telling him what to do and say, he is under contract, or am I missing something?

You're probably one of those retards that thinks Manny can make his own decisions and offer fighters certain amounts of money...or "take the smaller split". Hell, that retard can't even incriminate himself and offer to take the smaller split of a purse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Just stop failing man...


You can continue to make up facts all you want but it won't help. The deal, according to every published report I have seen, was Canelo would fight Floyd IF they both won on May 4th. There is NOTHING about it being locked in regardless of the outcome of Canelo's fight with Trout. If you have ANYTHING that backs up YOUR claim, then please produce it b/c I am open to changing my opinion.
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Cshel86
post Apr 9 2013, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Apr 9 2013, 10:48 PM) *
What is the alternative for Canelo? I mean really...do you honestly think he should just become Floyd's bitch and fight on his undercard until Floyd deems him worthy? I don't think so. Canelo is going his own way and I think it's good for both guys. There are MANY good fights for Canelo. Trout is LEGIT, Sergio Martinez is out there and a fight with Cotto would be HUGE. Canelo vs Guerro could be exciting and Kirkland is still out there. Hello, Canelo vs Berto or Thurman could be great.

It is time for Canelo to stop fighting on Mayweather undercards.

You're naming some great fights for a fighter who probably wont fight them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

QUOTE (KOpower @ Apr 9 2013, 10:51 PM) *
You can continue to make up facts all you want but it won't help. The deal, according to every published report I have seen, was Canelo would fight Floyd IF they both won on May 4th. There is NOTHING about it being locked in regardless of the outcome of Canelo's fight with Trout. If you have ANYTHING that backs up YOUR claim, then please produce it b/c I am open to changing my opinion.

The funny thing is, we had no idea who Canelo was going to fight for a long time, he was just riding off of everybody else's name. No need to be open to changing your opinion, I like you for the jackass that you are, it makes things interesting.

If there was nothing locked in about a Floyd fight in September regardless of the outcome of Canelo/Trout, then why in the flying fuck was Canelo's ass hurting about Floyd not signing the contract? If the outcome wasn't riding on whether or not a September fight with Floyd would happen, then again, why was Canelo pressing for it?

I asked you the same question in two different forms, just in case you were too dumb to understand the first time around. The ball's in your court
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KOpower
post Apr 9 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Apr 9 2013, 11:08 PM) *
You're naming some great fights for a fighter who probably wont fight them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


The funny thing is, we had no idea who Canelo was going to fight for a long time, he was just riding off of everybody else's name. No need to be open to changing your opinion, I like you for the jackass that you are, it makes things interesting.

If there was nothing locked in about a Floyd fight in September regardless of the outcome of Canelo/Trout, then why in the flying fuck was Canelo's ass hurting about Floyd not signing the contract? If the outcome wasn't riding on whether or not a September fight with Floyd would happen, then again, why was Canelo pressing for it?

I asked you the same question in two different forms, just in case you were too dumb to understand the first time around. The ball's in your court



Come on, he was all set to fight Paul Williams. He was all set to fight Kirkland. He was all set to fight Ortiz. You know it and I know it so why do you have to make stuff up? Canelo wasn't riding off of anyone's name there...he was going to fight all 3 on a PPV event but through no fault of his own the fights all fell through. Honestly, if you want to deny and debate that FACT, is it really worth talking to you?

What Canelo wanted was pretty simple. He fought on Floyd's last 2 PPV cards in hopes that it would pave the way for a fight against Mayweather in the future. Well Mayweather's team obviously wanted Canelo-Trout on the undercard (and for good reason) so they dangled the possible fight with Mayweather in front of him n hopes that Canelo would accept. Canelo said yes...but instead of HOPING that Mayweather would eventually agree, Canelo wanted in writing. Mayweather declined so Canelo took the Trout fight and made his own event.

There is nothing wrong with either side, so where is the argument from Mayweather fans coming from?

And like I said before, every published report says that the deal was Canelo v Mayweather IF Canelo beat Trout. Period. Like I said, find me one shred of evidence that says otherwise and I will do further research. You have none because you know that was the way it went down. For some really, REALLY odd reason you don't want to give that talking point up. It's sort of weird...
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mrchitown
post Apr 10 2013, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Apr 9 2013, 09:48 PM) *
What is the alternative for Canelo? I mean really...do you honestly think he should just become Floyd's bitch and fight on his undercard until Floyd deems him worthy? I don't think so. Canelo is going his own way and I think it's good for both guys. There are MANY good fights for Canelo. Trout is LEGIT, Sergio Martinez is out there and a fight with Cotto would be HUGE. Canelo vs Guerro could be exciting and Kirkland is still out there. Hello, Canelo vs Berto or Thurman could be great.

It is time for Canelo to stop fighting on Mayweather undercards.


So you think Canelo fighting Berto or Thurman is a suitable fight? And even Guererro? This is the knock on the kid, he needs to fight legit 154lbers. His whole career is feasting on smaller fighters, I like Canelo but he has to show and do more. Granted he's facinga legit boxer in Trout and I don't think he'll beat Trout but he'll need to do more then that. He needs more fighters at his weight like a Kirkland as you mentioned, how about Lara..it's plenty of people at his weight he can fight. It's time to take the training wheels off. And as far as him fighting Sergio, that won't happen, he'll get cooked

This post has been edited by mrchitown: Apr 10 2013, 12:21 AM
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checkleft
post Apr 10 2013, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Apr 9 2013, 10:29 PM) *
Come on, he was all set to fight Paul Williams. He was all set to fight Kirkland. He was all set to fight Ortiz. You know it and I know it so why do you have to make stuff up? Canelo wasn't riding off of anyone's name there...he was going to fight all 3 on a PPV event but through no fault of his own the fights all fell through. Honestly, if you want to deny and debate that FACT, is it really worth talking to you?

What Canelo wanted was pretty simple. He fought on Floyd's last 2 PPV cards in hopes that it would pave the way for a fight against Mayweather in the future. Well Mayweather's team obviously wanted Canelo-Trout on the undercard (and for good reason) so they dangled the possible fight with Mayweather in front of him n hopes that Canelo would accept. Canelo said yes...but instead of HOPING that Mayweather would eventually agree, Canelo wanted in writing. Mayweather declined so Canelo took the Trout fight and made his own event.

There is nothing wrong with either side, so where is the argument from Mayweather fans coming from?

And like I said before, every published report says that the deal was Canelo v Mayweather IF Canelo beat Trout. Period. Like I said, find me one shred of evidence that says otherwise and I will do further research. You have none because you know that was the way it went down. For some really, REALLY odd reason you don't want to give that talking point up. It's sort of weird...

The argument isn't from "mayweather fans" its from boxing fans. I could care less if they fought on separate cards or the same card. The argument is Canelo, in terms of real boxing fans, is absolutely nobody to be demanding a mayweather fight. He has fought no one, he has done nothing, his belt is an accessory, a gift. Yes fights fell through with two decent 154 pounders who had not looked good at all in their passed 2-3 fights, but does that warrant him to go down to lower divisions to just pad Gus already padded record? What about molina? Lara? Delvin? Bundrage? Instead he has his sights set on the ortiz lopez winner!?! Two guys who not too long ago were Jr welterweights. He was a joke before this fight got signed, and even Mexican fans like me know it. At least jcc Jr took his schooling like a man and showed some grit.

Btw I can bet money that the other two times Canelo was on mayweathers cards it was because of golden boys agenda not because of the mayweather camp (Wtf was that all about). He would get way more exposure on cards like that than a normal hbo showcase back then.
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VJones
post Apr 10 2013, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (KOpower @ Apr 9 2013, 09:44 PM) *
Canelo was going to fight on PPV this past summer, but the fight with Williams didn't go through and the fight with Kirkland didn't go through. That left Canelo with Ortiz, but then Ortiz lost. All of those fights were going to be PPV....but the opponent just didn't handle business or got injured.

I disagree with you about a fighter like Canelo continuing to fight on the Mayweather's undercard. That is not how you go about building your reputation. Canelo vs Trout is not undercard material and at this point Canelo is not an undercard fighter. It's that simple. Canelo was ok with fighting his biggest fight on Floyd's undercard if a guarantee was in place (provided both fighters won), but Floyd didn't want to commit. At that point there is no reason for Canelo to fight on a Floyd Mayweather PPV event. I don't see why that is so unreasonable to so many on this board.

I have no problem with Floyd not wanting to fight Canelo this fall. IMO Floyd is just a once a year fighter. I don't see him fighting in the fall. If he does, I think he faces Berto, Alexander, or even a rematch with Judah if Judah beats Garcia. I don't think Floyd has the desire to be a consistent fighter anymore and THAT is why he doesn't want to lock himself in.


KO, I wasn't suggesting that Canelo continue to stay on Floyd's undercard per se. It really is up to his promoter to decide their best strategy for his career. What I mentioned was his failed opportunity to have what one would call a "breakout performance" when he twice had the platform on Floyd's undercard. Something that would attract casual American fans (ie a knockout or complete dominance or supreme skill or even charisma or...how about a command of the English language.) He did/had none of that. And thus, any network worth their salt is not going to lose money, just to give this kid a PPV, so he can say he had one. Because as I stated, the only purpose of a PPV is PROFIT.

Btw, it is NOT factual that fights with Williams, Kirkland, and Ortiz would have been PPV. They were being considered. And I can promise you that the Kirkland fight would not have been a PPV fight. And the Williams fight more than likely would not have met the muster either. Ortiz however...a good possibility. And why? Because Ortiz danced with FM (on PPV) and even in a humiliating defeat became all the more popular by his mere presence in the ring with the biggest PPV draw, along with all of the mainstream media attention that came with it. In other words, he was exposed to a broader market of buyers (not to be confused with viewers)...and some of which became fans and some haters and some just now know his name.

Casual fans have to remember you and know you by name to 'buy' into you. Canelo hasn't gained that appeal with American fans. But GBP is doing their best to try and get him there...including having him learn English.

Make no mistake, Ortiz would have been the A-side of that PPV. It's simply about numbers. Ask yourself, would ABC network put Canelo on Dancing With The Stars as they've done with Victor? I'll answer. Heck no! Who is he? With the exception of hardcore boxing fans in America, who the heck is Canelo? But guess what, if I said to my circle (of mostly casual fans): "Remember the red-headed Mexican on Floyd Mayweather's undercard, who fought Shane Mosley?" Then some of them would remember him. Because he was on Floyd's undercard. No other reason, because Canelo himself did nothing memorable (to a casual boxing fan) in that fight.

I think the very way in which you perceive the business of PPV and how/why fights are made, is why many of us are taking issue with your statements. You seem to believe for instance that Canelo makes his own decisions. Not the case. GBP is his promotional unit. They are making the decisions for Canelo. And Golden Boy Promotions is who wants Canelo on Floyd's undercard...not Team Mayweather. Why? Because its beneficial to Canelo's career. It's the big leagues and an opportunity for him to steal the show with a breakout performance. Team Mayweather would certainly enjoy having a rising star and another great fight on the card...but 1. Floyd's money is guaranteed and 2. He's already proven he can do over a million PPVs, so what is the great benefit there?

So the notion of Canelo "allowing" his fight to be on Mayweather's undercard...as if he's doing Floyd a favor is absurd. But Canelo is 22 years old, pampered, and somewhat delusional...so he'll learn. Maybe the hard way. Because I can also promise you this...without fighting Floyd Mayweather, he'll never climb to Floyd's level of popularity or earnings...anymore than Floyd or Manny would have without Oscar.

It is also NOT factual that an agreement was drawn or that it stated "in the case of both fighters winning". Team Mayweather will definitely take issue with that. The only people spinning that tale AFTER some minor backlash, was Oscar, Canelo's Manager, and Dan Rafael.

Note: if you read an "article" (especially on the internet) and it doesn't bother to have a quote from BOTH sides and its unsourced; you can rest assured it's some hackish, non-journalistic, foolishness. A fact-based article requires all sides of the story. Most of what you're reading online is not FACT...it's opinion...and worse, propaganda. Boxing is so dirty...
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VJones
post Apr 10 2013, 02:48 AM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Apr 10 2013, 12:20 AM) *
So you think Canelo fighting Berto or Thurman is a suitable fight? And even Guererro? This is the knock on the kid, he needs to fight legit 154lbers. His whole career is feasting on smaller fighters, I like Canelo but he has to show and do more. Granted he's facinga legit boxer in Trout and I don't think he'll beat Trout but he'll need to do more then that. He needs more fighters at his weight like a Kirkland as you mentioned, how about Lara..it's plenty of people at his weight he can fight. It's time to take the training wheels off. And as far as him fighting Sergio, that won't happen, he'll get cooked


Agreed.

QUOTE (checkleft @ Apr 10 2013, 12:56 AM) *
The argument isn't from "mayweather fans" its from boxing fans. I could care less if they fought on separate cards or the same card. The argument is Canelo, in terms of real boxing fans, is absolutely nobody to be demanding a mayweather fight. He has fought no one, he has done nothing, his belt is an accessory, a gift. Yes fights fell through with two decent 154 pounders who had not looked good at all in their passed 2-3 fights, but does that warrant him to go down to lower divisions to just pad Gus already padded record? What about molina? Lara? Delvin? Bundrage? Instead he has his sights set on the ortiz lopez winner!?! Two guys who not too long ago were Jr welterweights. He was a joke before this fight got signed, and even Mexican fans like me know it. At least jcc Jr took his schooling like a man and showed some grit.

Btw I can bet money that the other two times Canelo was on mayweathers cards it was because of golden boys agenda not because of the mayweather camp (Wtf was that all about). He would get way more exposure on cards like that than a normal hbo showcase back then.


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VJones
post Apr 10 2013, 03:01 AM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 9 2013, 06:20 PM) *
excellent post.

i think you all make valid points...but i agree that canelo is in no position to be making demands. floyd has been very good about selecting the right opposition and the promoters have been good about putting together solid undercards. this next ppv will be no different. i think floyd would have benefitted with canelo on the undercard moreso than mares. i'll agree that canelo is not ppv worthy...but if he should beat trout i think he is without doubt floyds biggest payday like KOpower has suggested.


Definitely Prof...in the sea of potential fights (within 147/154)...and within the current landscape of GBP/May Promo vs TR/HBO warfare, Canelo is more than likely the biggest payday for FM. Khan however could rival or offer more, with UK buys...
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