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> So Who Beats Floyd? Past or Present?
scdrking2
post May 10 2013, 04:47 PM
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People can not like him for various reasons, but guys like he and Bernard Hopkins are totally dedicated to their craft. Also, as much as people think the Klitchkos are boring, the same is said of them in terms of their study of the sport and their dedication in the gym. Folks like Hatton, Ortiz, Pavlik, Arreola etc just dont have it in them to give the sport that much and dont stand a chance.

This post has been edited by scdrking2: May 10 2013, 04:50 PM
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daprofessor
post May 10 2013, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (mgrover @ May 10 2013, 05:38 PM) *
You know you could probably of made an argument for him to be the greatest, but it's just hard at times lol.


skill wise...i've made this argument before. show me a fighter who is more skilled than floyd? i cannot think of one in history to be honest. but as for accomplishments... it's like paulie malignaggi said..."sure you can do all these things against inferior opposition...but what happens when u put someone in there with equal athleticism and intelligence?" he was talking about broner...but the same applies to floyd.

robinson had his lamotta

ali had his frazier

leonard had his duran

who has floyd really had that is anything close to his equal? no one.
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Jack 1000
post May 10 2013, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 10 2013, 07:09 PM) *
skill wise...i've made this argument before. show me a fighter who is more skilled than floyd? i cannot think of one in history to be honest. but as for accomplishments... it's like paulie malignaggi said..."sure you can do all these things against inferior opposition...but what happens when u put someone in there with equal athleticism and intelligence?" he was talking about broner...but the same applies to floyd.

robinson had his lamotta

ali had his frazier

leonard had his duran

who has floyd really had that is anything close to his equal? no one.


True because there's no equal to him or better than him to fight in today's champs and contenders. Alvarez is the ONLY guy that could present a threat. Legends in almost all the weight classes today don't have other legends to fight like in the past. Floyd is the best in his era. Love him, sort of like him, or hate him. Maybe in the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Benitez, Armstrong, Robinson, Lamotta universes, Floyd goes to a top five to ten contender because all of those guys were as good as Floyd, debate better than Floyd, and perhaps a lot better than Floyd. Like I said before, Floyd is so used to dictating the terms and tempo of his fights that his competition most of the time after the first four rounds they could not figure Floyd out. You have to go back to Castillo I were Floyd looked like a loser to many, and Castillo II were both guys looked crappy in a boring fight. As Malinaggi said, Floyd has become a much better fighter since Castillo and shows no weaknesses or signs of slowing down.

However, with these legends and the intangibles of whether the fight would be 12 or the old 15 round distance would play a role. Floyd's now up against these legends and may have to deal with digging deep and adversity for the fist time. How well could Floyd adjust to the beast of Jake Lamotta or the Duran who beat Leonard and dominated the Lightweight division and was an excellent welterweight when his head was on straight? Floyd's never had to face someone as good or better than he because, as of now, no boxer today exists.

It would be interesting to hear Floyd's take on these legends and how he would do against them!

Jack
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BrutUalBK
post May 11 2013, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ May 10 2013, 10:31 PM) *
True because there's no equal to him or better than him to fight in today's champs and contenders. Alvarez is the ONLY guy that could present a threat. Legends in almost all the weight classes today don't have other legends to fight like in the past. Floyd is the best in his era. Love him, sort of like him, or hate him. Maybe in the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Benitez, Armstrong, Robinson, Lamotta universes, Floyd goes to a top five to ten contender because all of those guys were as good as Floyd, debate better than Floyd, and perhaps a lot better than Floyd. Like I said before, Floyd is so used to dictating the terms and tempo of his fights that his competition most of the time after the first four rounds they could not figure Floyd out. You have to go back to Castillo I were Floyd looked like a loser to many, and Castillo II were both guys looked crappy in a boring fight. As Malinaggi said, Floyd has become a much better fighter since Castillo and shows no weaknesses or signs of slowing down.

However, with these legends and the intangibles of whether the fight would be 12 or the old 15 round distance would play a role. Floyd's now up against these legends and may have to deal with digging deep and adversity for the fist time. How well could Floyd adjust to the beast of Jake Lamotta or the Duran who beat Leonard and dominated the Lightweight division and was an excellent welterweight when his head was on straight? Floyd's never had to face someone as good or better than he because, as of now, no boxer today exists.

It would be interesting to hear Floyd's take on these legends and how he would do against them!

Jack



While I wouldn't say that FLoyd is unbeatable (though none has done it yet) I'd say in regards to what's in Bold that Lamotta was simply a guy who bulled forward much in the way Hatton did and that Money's footspeed/legs are too good for him to get beaten that way-both Jesus Chavez and Ricky Hatton tried that style with Mayweather and it didn't work. As far as the Duran who beat SRL in the 1st fight; many people forget that Ray fought Roberto's fight and not his own-the rematch clearly proved how easy of a night it was and if it was easy for Leonard (who IMHO is lesser skilled than FLoyd) then I'm certain that as long as Money fights his own fight that he beats/frustrates Duran just as easily and if not, moreso than Sugar due to his pinpoint accurate offense and superior defense (much better than Leonard's).
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BrutUalBK
post May 12 2013, 06:27 PM
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In a subject-response talk with RingTV.com, Hearns mulled how Mayweather and Pacquiao would fair against each other as well as against himself, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Duran.

Hearns' thoughts on Mayweather:

"Floyd Mayweather Jr. is an excellent fighter. I will give credit where credit is due. I can not take anything away from Floyd Mayweather.

"Floyd Mayweather is a very smart fighter in the ring. He feints well, and he punches pretty good. I mean he's pretty active while he's in there."

On how Mayweather and Pacquiao would do against himself, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Duran:

"I think that [Mayweather] would do pretty good. He's got good head movement and I can't put him down. ... I have to give him his props. He could last.

"Manny Pacquiao, I think that he's a pretty good fighter too. I think that he would do well. He would do OK. I think that he would do pretty good."

On what his strategy would be in a fight against Mayweather:

"Against me, I would have to respect him. I think that he could go the distance with me. I would have to out-think him and definitely out-jab him. He's a shorter man, so he can't get to me.

"I would have to keep the jab on him and keep him at a distance and force him to use his head movement all of the time. Somewhere down the line, I would probably hit him with a couple of right hands.

"I would probably get him with a good right hand if not an average right hand. If I was to go to the body, you know that might play into what he is probably trying to do strategically.

"I think that if I got closer to him trying to land a body shot, that would be what he wants. So I think that my best thing would be to stay on the outside and just box him. But I think that he could go the distance with me."

On his strategy against Pacquiao:

"He would definitely have to come to me. I would probably just box him and keep boxing him and look for the shot. Yeah, definitely, I would box him and look for the opening. I would give him a good boxing lesson. [Laughs.]"

On who would win between Mayweather and Pacquiao:

"I would say that it would be an awesome fight between the both of them, but I think that Floyd should win the fight. If Floyd does what he's supposed to do, then I think Floyd wins.

"If he doesn't, then Pacquiao will take over the fight. Manny Pacquiao comes to fight. That's all that he wants to do. But I think that the only way that Pacquiao could win is by knockout of Floyd.

"The way that Floyd is going to win is to out-box Manny Pacquiao and to make Manny Pacquiao fall apart."

On whether either Mayweather or Pacquiao could beat him:

"[Laughs.] Listen, they're good fighters, right? Can't take anything away from those guys. But you know anybody who was in my weight division, you know, I would give them hell.

"They would have to be really fighting hard and be ready to absorb a lot of punches to beat me. Because, you know, I ain't going to let anybody just come in and beat me."
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neophyte7
post May 12 2013, 08:51 PM
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Man that was an awesome read. Much respect to Tommy Hearns... interesting to say the least. He sees Pac and Floyd as able to compete in his era.
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Genius
post May 14 2013, 02:19 AM
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Unless those fighters agree to random blood and urine testing, they wouldn't happen lol
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mgrover
post May 14 2013, 06:04 AM
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I can't see PAC competing in that era at that weight tbh
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neophyte7
post May 14 2013, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE (mgrover @ May 14 2013, 07:04 AM) *
I can't see PAC competing in that era at that weight tbh





neither do I..
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MaxPayne
post May 14 2013, 09:56 AM
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I'm going to consider the following fighters:

Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Julio Caesar Chavez, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Pernell Whitaker. I'd like to include Roy Jones Jr. just for the mythical debate aspect, but then you might as well include Ali and Tyson.

I don't believe that you can be reliant on a jab to beat Floyd Mayweather. I've never, ever seen a fighter who is so effective at taking away Boxing's most basic and fundamental technique. Whether it's slipping, sliding, rolling or pulling back, jabs simply don't land on Floyd. There's a reason why the jab is generally abandoned by fighters as fights against Floyd go on. Why ? Because guys keep whiffing and then getting pull-countered with a right hand for their troubles.

Ergo, I don't believe Leonard or Hearns would have been able to beat Floyd. Hearns had a monstrous right hand, but relied on the jab to set it up. Leonard was an incredible combination puncher with excellent hand speed, but once again, relied on the jab to set up those shots.

Now, even assuming that Hearns and Leonard would land punches here and there, we still haven't asked the question about their respective defenses. Hearns took part in "The War", which tells you all about his willingness to leave his chin out there. Leonard while slick, was prone to being hit by flat footed shots (see the Hearns fights), let alone sharp shots that are thrown from angles with great timing. Leonard was also not nearly as defensively sound in the clinch or up close.

The other group of fights includes Chavez, Duran and Hagler. These were great warriors who used their physiques, conditioning and toughness to bull guys around the ring. I believe that against many fighters, this approach can work, especially when you are just able to relentlessly cut off the ring. There is an important contingency though: you're expecting the other guy's conditioning to ultimately fail him from exhaustion and being battered.

With Floyd, conditioning has never been a problem. He's also actually harder to hit in the clinch and up-close than he is at the center of the ring. Re-watch several of his fights and you'll see. None of these guys were also particularly defensively sound. They simply walked through shots. Could Floyd knock them out ? Doubtful. Would he win decisions though ? Absolutely.

That leaves us with the 2 men who I believe could have actually beaten Floyd: Pernell Whitaker and the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

So what is it about these 2 that makes them capable ? I'll outline it:

To beat Floyd, you need defense, timing and the ability to attack with lead power shots without the assistance of a jab.

You also need a great left-hand punch (right-handed power shots are a lot harder to land against the Modified Shell Defense). Pernell had his Straight Left Hand. SRR had his Left Hook.

Both men were superb defensively, to the point where it's conceivable that Floyd would have been frustrated into throwing an uncharacteristic shot that left him more open than usual. Add the ability to counter, and we're talking solid shots landing.

So I believe Pernell and SRR could have done it. However...

Who is to say that Floyd wouldn't have made that Round 3 adjustment and used a completely different set of skills to negate the above strategy ? It's entirely possible...

...and that's what makes Floyd special. As you really study him in the ring, the sheer range of his skills is somewhat baffling. There are stretches in a match where he will largely abandon the Modified Shell Defense and square up with both hands up. There are angled looks with both hands down where he's simply looking to slip and slide. Opponents are left trying different techniques as the rounds go by.

Such is the wizardry of the man.

Is he invincible ? No.

But he's about as close to invincible as we've ever seen.
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