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> WHY DOESN'T AMERICA CELEBRATE HOPKINS?, Before the doping Armstrong was heraleded!!
BrutUalBK
post Mar 12 2013, 12:10 PM
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QUOTE (pacco_diablo @ Mar 12 2013, 10:00 AM) *
IMO, race does play a small part in it. Mostly from the perspective (here in America) that because he's a black athlete he's almost expected to be a better athlete. White American boxers are considered inferior and the track record and history of the sport show why, especially within boxing today. It's like when Jason Sehorn started to become a big name for the New York Giants. He was considered an anomaly because he was a fast white corner back, a positioned dominated by black athletes, but then he got hurt and fell off the face of the planet. So race does play a part in the sense that people are usually ok with rooting for underdogs, aka white american boxers.

However...

Here are other reasons why Hopkins isnt celebrated the way he should be.

1 - He has losses. If he was undefeated or only had 1 -2 losses then he would be celebrated. Regardless if he has never been knocked out or not. In the end a loss is a loss. This is what dropped the great Roy Jones from the top of the boxing world. This is also what is keeping Mayweather at the top.

2 - personality. He's not as likable as George Foreman. He's not as cocky as Ali, Tyson or RJJ and Americans love an over confident/controversial figure.

3 - fighting style. So many of his big fights have been too strategic for the casual fan to find exciting. It's usually when the public eye has left him that he breaks out of his usual style and fights the way that 'fans' like to watch.



Again, we are getting sidetrack with the race thing a bit but aside from that it is the accomplishment that should get him the noteriety he deserves whether he has had losses or not. What he has done hasn't ever been done in this sport, that alone stands by itself and irregardless of what color/race/nationality he is or whoever would've accomplished this feat it should automatically guarantee that person the fame they deserve.

When it comes to achievements it's not about how many times you failed in the past, Michael Jordan failed far more than he succeeded but he is still known for being a winner, many sports figures have lost far more than they've had success so are we to strip them of their noteriety because they had those failures?? (rhetorical).

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mrchitown
post Mar 12 2013, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 12 2013, 07:25 AM) *
I believe that anybody that refuses to fall in line, and decides to do things their way, usually catches hell. Stuff like that takes courage, along with knowing that you'll receive some backlash and probably wont get paid for a while.


Now if we want to talk about something, THAT'S what needs to be discussed. It takes an incident like Sandy Hook Elementary or Columbine High School, to make people spew out some fear-driven mumbo jumbo about gun control. Funny thing is, nobody is saying shit about these daily death deaths in Chicago and so on.


100% agree, when you go against the status quo, and this is regardless of race....you will be ridiculed to the best of those people/companies/system etc degree. The system doesn't like to have it's balance of power upset and in sports, people like Hopkins have no problem tipping those scales

Hopkins, Floyd, Tyson, Ali...all these fighters have spoken out about issues at one time or another and they've all touched on their racial decent in regards to how their viewed in the sport. Is that a coincidence? I think not, they KNOW what time it is. Hell, Hopkins speaks on it every chance he gets. He brought it up in that ESPN article that was done on him not that long ago....Go look at comments under these guys' fights and I bet you in each one you'll find at least 3 or 4 racial remarks. I applaud what Hopkins is doing because not only is he breaking down barriers, he's using the platform that he finally has gotten to speak out on things, and not just race. I loved how in the post-fight presser how he championed the importance of reducing obesity and living the right way.

And I'd be lying if I said that another reason he's not glorified is because of his style of fighting. Early on in his career he seemed to be right on track but when he went more defensive and technician, it was hard to watch for some. Defense wins championships but offense sells tickets and that's what most care about


And they won't say anything about it because once again the system is being undermined and dictated by these corporations. In this case the NRA. But now that Mike Vick owns a dog, everyone is up in arms about it and wants to make some BS statements. But they rally against him but they don't rally for the murders that's happening on the southside of Chicago, or the war between latinos and blacks in LA. But when those precious white kids were killed, look what happened. We have taken strides in regards to race relations but to say that it doesn't play a factor. I question any one who says that and their motives behind saying it
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BrutUalBK
post Mar 12 2013, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (mrchitown @ Mar 12 2013, 06:32 PM) *
100% agree, when you go against the status quo, and this is regardless of race....you will be ridiculed to the best of those people/companies/system etc degree. The system doesn't like to have it's balance of power upset and in sports, people like Hopkins have no problem tipping those scales

Hopkins, Floyd, Tyson, Ali...all these fighters have spoken out about issues at one time or another and they've all touched on their racial decent in regards to how their viewed in the sport. Is that a coincidence? I think not, they KNOW what time it is. Hell, Hopkins speaks on it every chance he gets. He brought it up in that ESPN article that was done on him not that long ago....Go look at comments under these guys' fights and I bet you in each one you'll find at least 3 or 4 racial remarks. I applaud what Hopkins is doing because not only is he breaking down barriers, he's using the platform that he finally has gotten to speak out on things, and not just race. I loved how in the post-fight presser how he championed the importance of reducing obesity and living the right way.

And I'd be lying if I said that another reason he's not glorified is because of his style of fighting. Early on in his career he seemed to be right on track but when he went more defensive and technician, it was hard to watch for some. Defense wins championships but offense sells tickets and that's what most care about


And they won't say anything about it because once again the system is being undermined and dictated by these corporations. In this case the NRA. But now that Mike Vick owns a dog, everyone is up in arms about it and wants to make some BS statements. But they rally against him but they don't rally for the murders that's happening on the southside of Chicago, or the war between latinos and blacks in LA. But when those precious white kids were killed, look what happened. We have taken strides in regards to race relations but to say that it doesn't play a factor. I question any one who says that and their motives behind saying it



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WolfishPromistah
post Mar 13 2013, 01:53 AM
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QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Mar 12 2013, 10:24 AM) *
... All we need to do here is to stop looking at the man and look at the achievement, being the oldest man to capture a Championship should be the focus and no matter who did that it in itself should make them an instant celebrity regardless if you liked their boxing style or not. Sure Hopkins isn't pretty, sure he has a big mouth, sure some of his fights may be dull but at the end of the day he has done what no other has done in this sport and that alone should give him the fanfare he deserves whether you love him or hate him.


^^^
AND "That!" -- ladies and gentlemen...is the WHOLE thing in the nutshell (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Moreover, in the vain of what BrutUalBK says, take what some wished to do to O.J. (for what could be considered the least amount of 'getback' on the issue regarding the murder of Simpson's wife, Nicole, and Ron Goldman): Some people "actually" wanted to take away the Heisman trophy Simpson had rightfully won years earlier, as if his past accomplishments did not establish that he deserved the thing in the first place. Oh, if those revenge seekers could have they'd have rewritten history on it all, with that move, in any way to deprive even time itself of celebrating that man in the slightest way possible.

It's not that people would not have seen taking the trophy "back" as a bogus move -- it's "just" the issue the attempt was made, that it was even suggested to be done in the first place. 'Best believe some would have if they could have (nodding); it's how ... "petty" history has seemed to show things can go -- for some more consistently than for others.
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sduck
post Mar 13 2013, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 12 2013, 08:25 AM) *
People loved them AFTER they hit rock bottom, and more than likely, that "love" that they show them, is from pure guilt for all of the nasty shit that they said about them while they were on top of their game.

Ali is damn near the poster child for Parkinson's disease, and why isn't Michael J. Fox the poster child? It's a weird way of looking at it, but I believe people "uplift" Ali and condition, because he's still suffering. Michael J. Fox doesn't seem to be doing all that bad nowadays, but Ali on the other hand...

No matter how much shit Tyson did back in the day, I believe most can stand up and say that Mike is a real dude. The stuff that he expresses nowadays, most men wouldn't even admit. When he seemed dangerous and mentally unstable, they had everything in the world to say about him, but now that he has this pleasant demeanor, people are clamoring over his presence and so on.

That's another thing some people do, that's just a natural evil of people.

Muhammad Ali and Michael J. Fox are not even the same kind of people. Fox is nothing more than an actor. Ali is a fighter, a sports Icon. People naturally have more sympathy for Ali because his recognition his greater.

QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Mar 12 2013, 09:24 AM) *
First of all, they are not MY top black fighters. Second, Marciano is still bigger than all of them. Let me explain; you are confusing popularity with boxing. In terms of boxing none of them have did what RM has done and therefore there are none who have surpassed him, examine what happened with Babe Ruth and then compare it to when Bonds outsted his record.

Sure Ali and Tyson were more well-known especially in recent times and that is due to the modern day we live in and how the media is broadcasted around the world and that makes them more popular but in terms of the sport of boxing they still did not superseed RM/his PERFECT record of 50-0 and until anyone does then he is touted as the absolute best in this sport.

Now you may not believe it but that argument happens in the USA a lot more than you think especially if you debate with someone who can still remember him (RM) from his days of perfection in this sport. Ali wasn't big so much so for what he did in the ring, it was his political stance/statements against the Vietnam War that gained him his worldwide fame/popularity, Tyson was popular initially because he KO'd many of his opponents in devastating fashion but as his competition got better he gained fame from his antics outside of the ring and as well as the earbiting incident and not because of what he did in the sport.

All we need to do here is to stop looking at the man and look at the achievement, being the oldest man to capture a Championship should be the focus and no matter who did that it in itself should make them an instant celebrity regardless if you liked their boxing style or not. Sure Hopkins isn't pretty, sure he has a big mouth, sure some of his fights may be dull but at the end of the day he has done what no other has done in this sport and that alone should give him the fanfare he deserves whether you love him or hate him.

I wasn't literally saying your favorites, I was saying people in general. Uh what, this is based on popularity. People like Ali and Tyson were popular fighters because of their antics in and outside of the sport. Rocky Marciano was never that popular of a fighter, people only mention him because of his undefeated record as a heavyweight. He's usually nothing more than a name that some people try to use for argument sake, whether to compare to other fighters, or to uplift themselves (white-Italian pride).

People will never be rightfully appreciated as a whole. Most people that acknowledge boxing are nothing more but casual fans, who react to what little with what they know.
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BrutUalBK
post Mar 13 2013, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE (sduck @ Mar 13 2013, 04:47 AM) *
That's another thing some people do, that's just a natural evil of people.

Muhammad Ali and Michael J. Fox are not even the same kind of people. Fox is nothing more than an actor. Ali is a fighter, a sports Icon. People naturally have more sympathy for Ali because his recognition his greater.


I wasn't literally saying your favorites, I was saying people in general. Uh what, this is based on popularity. People like Ali and Tyson were popular fighters because of their antics in and outside of the sport. Rocky Marciano was never that popular of a fighter, people only mention him because of his undefeated record as a heavyweight. He's usually nothing more than a name that some people try to use for argument sake, whether to compare to other fighters, or to uplift themselves (white-Italian pride).

People will never be rightfully appreciated as a whole. Most people that acknowledge boxing are nothing more but casual fans, who react to what little with what they know.


Again, I believe you are getting caught up in this "Popularity" issue, this isn't about popularity-it's about achievement!! Regardless of how BHop fought in the past or how he fights now and even the things he's stated or whether or not people like him or not; it should be about the achievement alone. In regards to Rocky Marciano is exactly what I'm thinking, sure Rocky wasn't popular but based what he was able to achieve he is still celebrated and often his name come up in comparison to the HWs and many in boxing for having the perfect record.

Why is it that his (Marciano's) perfect record still being thrown up in people's faces whenever we speak of the best HWs or the best in boxing? It is simple, because of his achievement, not because the way he fought or the things he said/didn't say and because his skin happens to be white. Whether or not we chose to accept those as valid reasons or not the facts remain undisputed.
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neophyte7
post Mar 13 2013, 06:30 PM
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Overall Hopkin's achievements are like a giant next a flea in comparison to marciano's.. What he is doing beyong 45 is legendary and will not be duplicated many times as long as the earth spins on its axis
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sduck
post Mar 13 2013, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Mar 13 2013, 08:01 AM) *
Again, I believe you are getting caught up in this "Popularity" issue, this isn't about popularity-it's about achievement!! Regardless of how BHop fought in the past or how he fights now and even the things he's stated or whether or not people like him or not; it should be about the achievement alone. In regards to Rocky Marciano is exactly what I'm thinking, sure Rocky wasn't popular but based what he was able to achieve he is still celebrated and often his name come up in comparison to the HWs and many in boxing for having the perfect record.

Why is it that his (Marciano's) perfect record still being thrown up in people's faces whenever we speak of the best HWs or the best in boxing? It is simple, because of his achievement, not because the way he fought or the things he said/didn't say and because his skin happens to be white. Whether or not we chose to accept those as valid reasons or not the facts remain undisputed.

lol, I thought that's what this thread was about. Why isn't Hopkins popular and celebrated for what he's achieved? And people here are giving you that answer. Most people do not solely look at a fighter's record to give them recognition. Most fighters were popular and celebrated because they were appealing in and outside of the ring. Hopkins is not. Rocky Marciano is only sometimes a favorable mention because of his undefeated record; in which I further stated people often like to compare him to other undefeated fighters for arguments sake, or use him for white-Italian pride.

This post has been edited by sduck: Mar 13 2013, 07:08 PM
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BrutUalBK
post Mar 13 2013, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (sduck @ Mar 13 2013, 07:06 PM) *
lol, I thought that's what this thread was about. Why isn't Hopkins popular and celebrated for what he's achieved? And people here are giving you that answer. Most people do not solely look at a fighter's record to give them recognition. Most fighters were popular and celebrated because they were appealing in and outside of the ring. Hopkins is not. Rocky Marciano is only sometimes a favorable mention because of his undefeated record.



Again, it seems we are agreeing about Marciano's celebrity status being carried on because of his record but somehow Hopkins' is being overlooked even though we're only talking about the record/achievement and not necessarily the man.

I believe in years down the road once people begin to forget about Hopkins' ways, style of fighting or atleast the fights they called "boring" that he'll be more celebrated for his achievements and not solely on who he is perceived to be.
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mgrover
post Mar 13 2013, 07:55 PM
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I do have a fault with both the people he fought to become the oldest, they weren't up to par and certainly weren't the best in the division.

I mean while Pascal beat Dawson to effectively make him the best, he beat the worst of Dawson, and Cloud is a prospect with a belt

This post has been edited by mgrover: Mar 13 2013, 08:00 PM
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