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> Mike Tyson vs. Wlad Klitschko
JLUVBABY
post Jul 14 2011, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 14 2011, 08:34 PM) *
ding ding ding we have a winner.


i can assure you stev if tyson wasnt matched with them for that reason in the 90's it is only because his handlers knew that version of mike was on the decline... but you have to remember their was a 3 and a half year stint mike didnt fight... the mike that went to jail was still good enough to beat those versions of bowe and lewis... lewis wasnt that much bigger than mike at that time... he hadnt grown into the 250 lb dominant fighter he would become later and he wasnt with steward at that time who would create the fighter we would later come to know... lewis was still a somewhat green yet very capable fighter at that time but he would have been going in against a tyson that still was at least 85 to 90 percent of what he was as a champion caliber fighter in the 80's... if you are basing the tyson that came back after the prison stint well yeah no way he was ready for any tough fight... he didnt fight the type of fighters needed to get ready for a tough fight that either bowe or lewis would have been at any stage cuzz they where both two very good highly skilled fighters which is also a very big reason the tyson holyfield fight played out like it did... you dont get ready for that caliber fighter fighting mcneely, mathis bruno and seldon... those where setup fights... anyone that knows boxing knows that... you must admit that tyson was nowhere close to his prime at that point...
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Lil-lightsout
post Jul 14 2011, 09:05 PM
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Tyson would have fucking killed Wlad 100 out of 100 times. Not even close.
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gravytrain
post Jul 14 2011, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 14 2011, 09:48 PM) *
i can assure you stev if tyson wasnt matched with them for that reason in the 90's it is only because his handlers knew that version of mike was on the decline... but you have to remember their was a 3 and a half year stint mike didnt fight... the mike that went to jail was still good enough to beat those versions of bowe and lewis... lewis wasnt that much bigger than mike at that time... he hadnt grown into the 250 lb dominant fighter he would become later and he wasnt with steward at that time who would create the fighter we would later come to know... lewis was still a somewhat green yet very capable fighter at that time but he would have been going in against a tyson that still was at least 85 to 90 percent of what he was as a champion caliber fighter in the 80's... if you are basing the tyson that came back after the prison stint well yeah no way he was ready for any tough fight... he didnt fight the type of fighters needed to get ready for a tough fight that either bowe or lewis would have been at any stage cuzz they where both two very good highly skilled fighters which is also a very big reason the tyson holyfield fight played out like it did... you dont get ready for that caliber fighter fighting mcneely, mathis bruno and seldon... those where setup fights... anyone that knows boxing knows that... you must admit that tyson was nowhere close to his prime at that point...


i think with or without prison he's going to keep fading out. Givens and King took a lot out of him. you can have all the physical gifts in the world, if you don't have what it takes mentally you can't make it in boxing. when King forced Rooney out it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Jul 15 2011, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 14 2011, 09:05 PM) *
i think with or without prison he's going to keep fading out. Givens and King took a lot out of him. you can have all the physical gifts in the world, if you don't have what it takes mentally you can't make it in boxing. when King forced Rooney out it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.


I'd agree and I'll go one step further and give you guys a kinda conspiracy theory that I've alywas had about that whole rape situation.

Tyson was already dangerously spiralling out of control when the rape case came up. King had Holloway and whatever the other guy was as Tyson's managers and they were most definately feeding him the info on how badly Mike was veering off course.

When the rape case came up King got lawyer who was basically a specialist tax attorney, Vince Fuller I think his name was, to represent Mike. Remember Tyson could've afforded anyone in the world and on the advice of King they went for this schlub. Here is where I think King may have got a little tricky. Naturally I'm pretty sure that he didn't plant Desiree Washington but once the situation arose and always the opportunist he played it pretty well.

It was in King's best interests for Mike to lose that case. If he had the inside juice on how much Mike had slipped then he may have had an inkling that he could well lose the Holyfield fight. This way he gets to take him off the shelf, takes control of Mike's finances and even better when he comes out of prison Mike is an even bigger PPV attraction than he was before.

Of course Mike needs to fight on because King pretty much got all the money and now King has the bonus of getting Mike mega bucks against C class opponents because he has to allow him to lose the ring rust, which of course the public accpets and tunes in in their millions.

All in all this helps enlongate Mike's career before the inevitable happens against Holyfield. But by this stage King has squeezed millions more out of him which he probably wouldn't have got had Tyson not gone to prison and faced and got beaten by Holyfield.
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JLUVBABY
post Jul 15 2011, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 14 2011, 09:05 PM) *
i think with or without prison he's going to keep fading out. Givens and King took a lot out of him. you can have all the physical gifts in the world, if you don't have what it takes mentally you can't make it in boxing. when King forced Rooney out it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.


i agree he would have kept fading as a fighter but it would have happened at a lot lesser pace.... he would never be the same when he came back from his prison stint... he was a good fighter when he came back had he been tested and brought back right but not the same fighter as he was even after the ruddock wins... even that tyson was still good enough to rule the division and that wasa shell of a fighter even then...
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JLUVBABY
post Jul 15 2011, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jul 15 2011, 12:25 AM) *
I'd agree and I'll go one step further and give you guys a kinda conspiracy theory that I've alywas had about that whole rape situation.

Tyson was already dangerously spiralling out of control when the rape case came up. King had Holloway and whatever the other guy was as Tyson's managers and they were most definately feeding him the info on how badly Mike was veering off course.

When the rape case came up King got lawyer who was basically a specialist tax attorney, Vince Fuller I think his name was, to represent Mike. Remember Tyson could've afforded anyone in the world and on the advice of King they went for this schlub. Here is where I think King may have got a little tricky. Naturally I'm pretty sure that he didn't plant Desiree Washington but once the situation arose and always the opportunist he played it pretty well.

It was in King's best interests for Mike to lose that case. If he had the inside juice on how much Mike had slipped then he may have had an inkling that he could well lose the Holyfield fight. This way he gets to take him off the shelf, takes control of Mike's finances and even better when he comes out of prison Mike is an even bigger PPV attraction than he was before.

Of course Mike needs to fight on because King pretty much got all the money and now King has the bonus of getting Mike mega bucks against C class opponents because he has to allow him to lose the ring rust, which of course the public accpets and tunes in in their millions.

All in all this helps enlongate Mike's career before the inevitable happens against Holyfield. But by this stage King has squeezed millions more out of him which he probably wouldn't have got had Tyson not gone to prison and faced and got beaten by Holyfield.


interesting theory... lol... but thing is the tyson holyfield fight before prision is a much different fight then the first meeting we saw after prison... what finally saw was two fighters past their primes fighting each other with one fighter better prepared because of the comp he had been fighting leading up to that particular fight in holyfield then the other guy which was tyson... i will always feel that tyson went into that fight ill prepared for the kind of battle holyfield has always brought into the ring by not being prepared for a tough fight and you only get ready for a tough fight by fighting tough fighters... while holyfield had been in with riddick bowe and moorer and the rest of the top heavies he'd been fighting tyson had been off 3 ad a half years and had 4 or so set up fights.... that dont get you ready for that type of fight and fighter rather holyfield was shot at that time or not (which king and crew figured him to be)..... with that said im not saying tyson ever beats holyfield but i am saying that at his best or near his best its a different fight then the fight we saw cuzz at the end of the day of the fighters that beat tyson holyfield is the only fighter who's career really meets him prime for prime or you cold say they where at the same point in their careers at the time of the fight... the difference?... holyfield was ready and tyson wasnt ready for the kind of fight that would take place...
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BoxingWizard23
post Jul 15 2011, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 14 2011, 04:59 PM) *
Wlad always used his jab and he was NEVER A BRAWLER.

Which fights are you referring to where Wlad was a brawler?

While we're at it, how many great hws in their primes did Tyson ever face, much less beat? And how many of those great hws outweighed Tyson by 30 pounds and towered over him by 8 inches?

I've got a lot of Tyson and Wlad fights on tape and I'd love some reference points.

Are you shitting me Sherlock?? Wlad's jab was shit before he was with Steward. He use to fight offensively more often during his undefeated and prime career and he was some shit!! check the Sanders fight for evidence. He was going toe to toe with Sanders and he got decked like some poker cards.

The reason Tyson never faced those other big time HW's was because they ducked him!! ever wonder why he was the most feared man in the planet at one time?? It's been in many articles that opponents were scared to fight him. Show me 1 article or claim of where Lewis, Bowe,Moore and etc. in the 80's were trying to fight Mike when he became the youngest heavyweight champ in history. Where? I'll be waiting...............forever..
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Warlord
post Jul 15 2011, 03:33 AM
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Vitali vs. Tyson would've been a better match-up. Prime Tyson was too good of a finisher for any version of Wladimir.

Vitali had enough of a chin to possibly take Tyson late, where he would have started to punish him.
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Jul 15 2011, 03:40 AM
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QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 15 2011, 03:54 AM) *
interesting theory... lol... but thing is the tyson holyfield fight before prision is a much different fight then the first meeting we saw after prison... what finally saw was two fighters past their primes fighting each other with one fighter better prepared because of the comp he had been fighting leading up to that particular fight in holyfield then the other guy which was tyson... i will always feel that tyson went into that fight ill prepared for the kind of battle holyfield has always brought into the ring by not being prepared for a tough fight and you only get ready for a tough fight by fighting tough fighters... while holyfield had been in with riddick bowe and moorer and the rest of the top heavies he'd been fighting tyson had been off 3 ad a half years and had 4 or so set up fights.... that dont get you ready for that type of fight and fighter rather holyfield was shot at that time or not (which king and crew figured him to be)..... with that said im not saying tyson ever beats holyfield but i am saying that at his best or near his best its a different fight then the fight we saw cuzz at the end of the day of the fighters that beat tyson holyfield is the only fighter who's career really meets him prime for prime or you cold say they where at the same point in their careers at the time of the fight... the difference?... holyfield was ready and tyson wasnt ready for the kind of fight that would take place...



I hear you but then King was probably a lot more confident Holyfield could be beaten post prison because of all the wars he went through when Mike was locked up. I bet King thought that it had worked out real well. As you say they severely underestimated how prepared Holyfield was for that fight.

But then again I also think Tyson just brought out another level from Holyfield. Remember Tua and another guy were supposedly beating Vander up pretty good in sparring. And that wasn't pre-fight mindgames that is something which Vander has admitted to since the fight.
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salvador
post Jul 15 2011, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE (BoxingWizard23 @ Jul 15 2011, 03:25 AM) *
Are you shitting me Sherlock?? Wlad's jab was shit before he was with Steward. He use to fight offensively more often during his undefeated and prime career and he was some shit!! check the Sanders fight for evidence. He was going toe to toe with Sanders and he got decked like some poker cards.

The reason Tyson never faced those other big time HW's was because they ducked him!! ever wonder why he was the most feared man in the planet at one time?? It's been in many articles that opponents were scared to fight him. Show me 1 article or claim of where Lewis, Bowe,Moore and etc. in the 80's were trying to fight Mike when he became the youngest heavyweight champ in history. Where? I'll be waiting...............forever..


This is silly. Fighters like Spinks and Bruno and all the other b level guys were terrified of mike - guys like Holyfield, Lewis, and Bowe WEREN'T because they were A level fighters and A level guys don't lose fights in the stare down.

And NOBODY was saying Tyson was a different fighter after prison until he got exposed by Holyfield - the first A level fighter of his career. People were very afraid for Holyfield's health going into that match. A huge part of why Tyson wasn't as dominant a fighter after prison because he lost his confidence - he didn't KNOW he was going to go into a fight and destroy the guy, which is what he learned fighting Holyfield.

Wlad's jab was great before Steward. He used it both as a pawing mechanism to blind fighters and set up right hands and he also used it as a weapon. Sanders caught him with a huge straight left hand early because Sanders was aggressive, lucky, and willing to stick his chin out to land that one punch. Wlad never chose to trade with anyone in his career because he never had to. Stalking and dominating guys with a huge jab and a huge right hand isn't the same thing as brawling.

In any event, the fact that Tyson ducked the prime fighters of his day is deeply unfortunate for boxing historians and these kinds of debates. Your argument would be a lot stronger if Tyson hadn't waited until the end of his career to fight Lewis, but for some reason he did wait. And it's a simple matter of fact that the two times Tyson fought A level guys he got ko'd.
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