[The Ollie Reed F...]

No, Mayweather helped generate 2.5 million buys and got 1.4-1.5 with Mosley by being an asshole on camera though. He might not be entertaining to the casual fan in the ring but he entertains them outside of it.

Most of the top fighters over the years have been American, in divisions that receive attention anyway. And no, the Klits wouldn't be huge in the states no matter how you look at it. They didn't get dropped by networks because they're from another country, they got dropped because there's no entertainment with them inside or outside the ring. They're nice guys, they can't sell a fight inside or outside of the ring though. Unless they were WASPs.

OK, why isn't Andre Ward a PPV star? Why has this cat been doing jack shit on Showtime up until the Super Six? He's an American Olympic gold medalist, that should guarantee him something right? No. As an American I can tell you that people here want to be entertained, they don't care if you're American or not. What about all the other Americans that no one knows? The fighters people do know about have mainstream exposure and do something to sell their fights.

Answer me this. Why is Pac so hugely popular in the Phillipines? Why is Danny Green so massive in Australia? Why is Hatton so loved in England. Why when Tua gets off his tubby arse does he do massive viewing numbers in NZ? Why are the Klits so big in their adopted country of Germany? Why does JMM rate throiught the roof in Mexico?

It's called national pride. Extra fans will always gravitate to a fighter if they feel a nationalistic affinity with that fighter. Don't believe me then check out the examples above. In some cases these guys aren't/weren't the best in their own divisions but that didn't stop them from pulling huge viewing numbers in their homeland. In some other cases it is because they are excelllent boxers and great entertainers, but you can be sure that if Manny was Chinese he wouldn't stop the masses in the Phillipines the way he does now.

Are you now telling me that in America, one of the most patriotic countries in the world, a boxer being American would have no relevance on their popularity/profile? Seriously are you bullshitting me? Wow if that's the case that's really sad. Sad that American fans don't have any kind of national pride to support their own.

As for the Klits, c'mon Gravy you damn well know if they were Johnny and Jimmy Guido they would be fucking huge in the States. Look at Tommy Morrisson, a guy with not even half the career or career KO's that either brother has. Before he got Aids he was halfway towards becoming a superstar in America.

Even more recently that tubby Joe Mesi was starting to develop a really big fan base with no talent at all. Imagine if he'd won a strap? The guy would've been huge.

Now as for your Andre Ward example, that is facile at best. Try actually reading my posts on the subject. Nowhere have I said that being American GUARANTEES you'll be a PPV star in America. You need a few things for that to happen. You need good management, promotion, good marketing, good matchmaking, natural charisma and a TV pleasing style. Sorry but Ward falls short of the mark in a few of those areas. That is why he is not a star.

I'll say it one last time. Whilst being from the States is no guarantee of PPV success, when you break through it has to be worth an added pop in viewing figures in your own country. As I've said in every other country I can think of it would certainly be worth some added numbers if only for the casual fan buying a fight to see one of their countrymen win a title etc.

However you may be right, maybe Americans simply don't care about Americans anymore and there isn't the national pride that ensures that they have extra success in their own country. I feel sorry for you if that is the case.

[Snoop]

Answer me this. Why is Pac so hugely popular in the Phillipines? Why is Danny Green so massive in Australia? Why is Hatton so loved in England. Why when Tua gets off his tubby arse does he do massive viewing numbers in NZ? Why are the Klits so big in their adopted country of Germany? Why does JMM rate throiught the roof in Mexico?

It's called national pride. Extra fans will always gravitate to a fighter if they feel a nationalistic affinity with that fighter. Don't believe me then check out the examples above. In some cases these guys aren't/weren't the best in their own divisions but that didn't stop them from pulling huge viewing numbers in their homeland. In some other cases it is because they are excelllent boxers and great entertainers, but you can be sure that if Manny was Chinese he wouldn't stop the masses in the Phillipines the way he does now.

Are you now telling me that in America, one of the most patriotic countries in the world, a boxer being American would have no relevance on their popularity/profile? Seriously are you bullshitting me? Wow if that's the case that's really sad. Sad that American fans don't have any kind of national pride to support their own.

As for the Klits, c'mon Gravy you damn well know if they were Johnny and Jimmy Guido they would be fucking huge in the States. Look at Tommy Morrisson, a guy with not even half the career or career KO's that either brother has. Before he got Aids he was halfway towards becoming a superstar in America.

Even more recently that tubby Joe Mesi was starting to develop a really big fan base with no talent at all. Imagine if he'd won a strap? The guy would've been huge.

Now as for your Andre Ward example, that is facile at best. Try actually reading my posts on the subject. Nowhere have I said that being American GUARANTEES you'll be a PPV star in America. You need a few things for that to happen. You need good management, promotion, good marketing, good matchmaking, natural charisma and a TV pleasing style. Sorry but Ward falls short of the mark in a few of those areas. That is why he is not a star.

I'll say it one last time. Whilst being from the States is no guarantee of PPV success, when you break through it has to be worth an added pop in viewing figures in your own country. As I've said in every other country I can think of it would certainly be worth some added numbers if only for the casual fan buying a fight to see one of their countrymen win a title etc.

However you may be right, maybe Americans simply don't care about Americans anymore and there isn't the national pride that ensures that they have extra success in their own country. I feel sorry for you if that is the case.

But again the American nationality only comes into play when the other guy isn't American. If Pacquiao was fighting another Filipino fighter, they'd probably still be rooting for him, but not because he's Filipino. Same with all the other examples you gave. Same reason as to why the Mosley vs Mayweather fight is no reflection on the level of pride American viewers has in it's fighters.

You're also homogenizing the American demographic. We ARE the most diverse nation in the world, filled with citizens from all corners of the world, and because of that, an "American" identity has become ambiguously defined. There are plenty of first generation immigrant Americans that hold more allegiance to their homeland than this one and because of that, don't necessarily "feel" American enough to start waving a flag and singing the national anthem.

This post has been edited by Snoop: Nov 24 2010, 07:28 PM

[The Ollie Reed F...]

But again the American nationality only comes into play when the other guy isn't American. If Pacquiao was fighting another Filipino fighter, they'd probably still be rooting for him, but not because he's Filipino. Same with all the other examples you gave. Same reason as to why the Mosley vs Mayweather fight is no reflection on the level of pride American viewers has in it's fighters.

You're also homogenizing the American demographic. We ARE the most diverse nation in the world, filled with citizens from all corners of the world, and because of that, an "American" identity has become ambiguously defined. There are plenty of first generation immigrant Americans that hold more allegiance to their homeland than this one and because of that, don't necessarily "feel" American enough to start waving a flag and singing the national anthem.

Nope still not getting it (but then again nothing new there.) My whole point, my only point, is that being a great American boxer must help your PPV numbers in America. Now I'm not saying that that is the ONLY thing that helps but it's got to be worth a few extra buys. It would be in every other country in the world.

As for your countryman V. countryman example I have a recent one for you. In NZ by far the largest PPV numbers in the history of PPV in our country was last year when David Tua fought a palooka called Shane Cameron. Never heard of him? Don't worry not many others have either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Cameron is also a Kiwi and a very very average HW. The buy numbers for this fight were obscene simply because people wanted to watch 2 New Zealanders go at it hammer and tong. It had nothing to do with the quality of the fighters, more where they came from.

And you know what Snoop I'd even argue that you're the most diverse nation in the world. That's a very bold statemnt to make my friend, based on what evidence? Hmmmmm that should keep you busy for a while (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Snoop]

Nope still not getting it (but then again nothing new there.) My whole point, my only point, is that being a great American boxer must help your PPV numbers in America. Now I'm not saying that that is the ONLY thing that helps but it's got to be worth a few extra buys. It would be in every other country in the world.

And apparently you're not getting MY point. You started by saying Pacquiao wouldn't be popular if he had Floyd's "boring-ass style". I said that Floyd's American nationality gave him the opportunity to be popular, but it didn't guarantee his popularity. But again, for some reason you're hanging on shit we agree on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dntknw.gif)

As for your countryman V. countryman example I have a recent one for you. In NZ by far the largest PPV numbers in the history of PPV in our country was last year when David Tua fought a palooka called Shane Cameron. Never heard of him? Don't worry not many others have either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Cameron is also a Kiwi and a very very average HW. The buy numbers for this fight were obscene simply because people wanted to watch 2 New Zealanders go at it hammer and tong. It had nothing to do with the quality of the fighters, more where they came from.

But they didn't root harder for either guy because he was from NZ. That would be stupid since the other guy has the exact same quality. I mean I get your point, it's a much bigger deal there than it is here simply for the fact that gravy pointed out that Americans are bombarded with so much entertainment that it's not really an event when two Americans go at it. I'm just saying that nationality plays more of a factor when you have one nation going up against another, which is something that didn't happen in the Mosley vs Mayweather fight, which is why I don't think you can say Americans don't care about their fighters based off just that fight, which is why I got into the whole debate to begin with. But to be fair, it's not something directed at you, just found it relevant to the discussion.

And you know what Snoop I'd even argue that you're the most diverse nation in the world. That's a very bold statemnt to make my friend, based on what evidence? Hmmmmm that should keep you busy for a while (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

It is a bold statement to make and other countries have a lot more diversity than the average American gives them credit for, but I wouldn't be surprised if the USA still came out on top. I guess it all depends on how you define "diversity" in the first place. I'd rather not debate it since it's a bit off-topic, but if you REALLY wanna argue it, I'm game. Start another thread with some evidence that American isn't the most diverse nation in the world.

[gravytrain]

Answer me this. Why is Pac so hugely popular in the Phillipines? Why is Danny Green so massive in Australia? Why is Hatton so loved in England. Why when Tua gets off his tubby arse does he do massive viewing numbers in NZ? Why are the Klits so big in their adopted country of Germany? Why does JMM rate throiught the roof in Mexico?

It's called national pride. Extra fans will always gravitate to a fighter if they feel a nationalistic affinity with that fighter. Don't believe me then check out the examples above. In some cases these guys aren't/weren't the best in their own divisions but that didn't stop them from pulling huge viewing numbers in their homeland. In some other cases it is because they are excelllent boxers and great entertainers, but you can be sure that if Manny was Chinese he wouldn't stop the masses in the Phillipines the way he does now.

Primarily because those countries have or had a fighter that reached the highest stage so obviously the country will support the only thing they've got. It'd be like if an American went on to be successful in F1, Americans that wouldn't normally care would watch him just because he's the only American competing at that level in the sport.

There's national pride but not like you're trying to make it out to be. Being an American fighter means jack shit in America, your marketability and promoter is everything. Nobody got to the top just by being American. Andre Ward is really marketable and he's fucking around on Showtime lol. Come on now, man. Seriously now. Andre Ward, Olympic gold medalist and devout Christian.. No mainstream success outside of his home town. Where is his nationality helping him? lol.

Are you now telling me that in America, one of the most patriotic countries in the world, a boxer being American would have no relevance on their popularity/profile? Seriously are you bullshitting me? Wow if that's the case that's really sad. Sad that American fans don't have any kind of national pride to support their own.

Sure there's. Look at it like this though; Pac isn't American and he's probably received more attention than an American boxer, Mayweather, has. How could you account for that? It's because of his marketability and his promoter.

As for the Klits, c'mon Gravy you damn well know if they were Johnny and Jimmy Guido they would be fucking huge in the States. Look at Tommy Morrisson, a guy with not even half the career or career KO's that either brother has. Before he got Aids he was halfway towards becoming a superstar in America.

Even more recently that tubby Joe Mesi was starting to develop a really big fan base with no talent at all. Imagine if he'd won a strap? The guy would've been huge.

If they were William and David Tebow maybe. Unless Wlad and Vitali were white, conservative, and Christian they wouldn't be getting the success you're thinking of. If they were just two American HWs they'd probably get the same amount of attention the guys will get when the Klits retire.

Tommy Morrison had shit going on for him outside of boxing, he'd a famous relative and was in a Rocky movie. That's why he was becoming a superstar, not because he's American. As for Joe Mesi, maybe a big fan base to some standard but not mainstream.

Now as for your Andre Ward example, that is facile at best. Try actually reading my posts on the subject. Nowhere have I said that being American GUARANTEES you'll be a PPV star in America. You need a few things for that to happen. You need good management, promotion, good marketing, good matchmaking, natural charisma and a TV pleasing style. Sorry but Ward falls short of the mark in a few of those areas. That is why he is not a star.

I'll say it one last time. Whilst being from the States is no guarantee of PPV success, when you break through it has to be worth an added pop in viewing figures in your own country. As I've said in every other country I can think of it would certainly be worth some added numbers if only for the casual fan buying a fight to see one of their countrymen win a title etc.

However you may be right, maybe Americans simply don't care about Americans anymore and there isn't the national pride that ensures that they have extra success in their own country. I feel sorry for you if that is the case.

LOL come on man, that guarantees you superstardom anyway. That would be like saying "being a good player doesn't mean you'll make it as a quarterback in the NFL, you just need a 4.0 40, be able to throw the ball 100 yards and hit a water bottle, read defenses easier than a child's book, and completely dominate the SEC".

I think you're just looking for a way to account for the difference between Mayweather's PPV and Pac's PPV. Want to know what it's? People wanted to see Mayweather lose. We Americans love controversy and Mayweather provides it, that's probably why Pac only got a Road To Dallas and Mayweather got a 24/7. His antics get people to watch HBO because he makes a fool of himself. Mayweather isn't championed as America's fighter by the general public, he's a clown that people love to hate.

If we were talking about De La Hoya I'd agree but Mayweather is no DLH.

[The Ollie Reed F...]

And apparently you're not getting MY point. You started by saying Pacquiao wouldn't be popular if he had Floyd's "boring-ass style". I said that Floyd's American nationality gave him the opportunity to be popular, but it didn't guarantee his popularity. But again, for some reason you're hanging on shit we agree on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dntknw.gif)


But they didn't root harder for either guy because he was from NZ. That would be stupid since the other guy has the exact same quality. I mean I get your point, it's a much bigger deal there than it is here simply for the fact that gravy pointed out that Americans are bombarded with so much entertainment that it's not really an event when two Americans go at it. I'm just saying that nationality plays more of a factor when you have one nation going up against another, which is something that didn't happen in the Mosley vs Mayweather fight, which is why I don't think you can say Americans don't care about their fighters based off just that fight, which is why I got into the whole debate to begin with. But to be fair, it's not something directed at you, just found it relevant to the discussion.


It is a bold statement to make and other countries have a lot more diversity than the average American gives them credit for, but I wouldn't be surprised if the USA still came out on top. I guess it all depends on how you define "diversity" in the first place. I'd rather not debate it since it's a bit off-topic, but if you REALLY wanna argue it, I'm game. Start another thread with some evidence that American isn't the most diverse nation in the world.

I certainly think not being from America, not speaking English, yeah having Floyd's style would be a tough sell for Pac. Floyd loves to play like he's some tough thug from the streets. He certainly likes to try and play the 'gangsta' which is a reasonably American concept yeah? It ensures that some love and relate to him and others want to throttle him. His whole play though is around the American success story and for that he dials in to the American pysche.

To be honest in NZ hardly anyone has heard of him. You could say we are a small country and nobody cares (and they'd be right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) but here's the point. In NZ we don't relate to Floyd's thug life persona we only judge him on his fights, if they are exciting etc. Same with manny. It's the reason why Manny is a much bigger draw in a neutral country like ours than in America. I'd be interested to know from Steve of Fitz as to which fighter is better known in Oz.

My round about point is Floyd's success or infamy or whatever you want to call it, in America is so successful there because it is a persona scripted soley for that audience.

If you feel that if Floyd were Japanese and spoke no English he would be just as successful with his PPV numbers in America as he is now then fair play to you I can't change your mind. Me? I can't see it myself.

I'll also disagree with the countries thing making it a bigger rivalry. Just seeing the way American's get into the whole East Coast/West Coast thing and your football, basketball and baseball finals I don't think you need to have guys from different countries to make the rivalry bigger.

As long as the chemistry is good that's enough. Shoot if Roy Jones and James Toney came along now, with PPV and 24/7 and all the rest of that stuff, darn that fight would be HUGE. Undefeated trash talkers like those two? You'd be looking at 2 mill. buys easy.

[The Ollie Reed F...]

Primarily because those countries have or had a fighter that reached the highest stage so obviously the country will support the only thing they've got. It'd be like if an American went on to be successful in F1, Americans that wouldn't normally care would watch him just because he's the only American competing at that level in the sport.

There's national pride but not like you're trying to make it out to be. Being an American fighter means jack shit in America, your marketability and promoter is everything. Nobody got to the top just by being American. Andre Ward is really marketable and he's fucking around on Showtime lol. Come on now, man. Seriously now. Andre Ward, Olympic gold medalist and devout Christian.. No mainstream success outside of his home town. Where is his nationality helping him? lol.



Sure there's. Look at it like this though; Pac isn't American and he's probably received more attention than an American boxer, Mayweather, has. How could you account for that? It's because of his marketability and his promoter.



If they were William and David Tebow maybe. Unless Wlad and Vitali were white, conservative, and Christian they wouldn't be getting the success you're thinking of. If they were just two American HWs they'd probably get the same amount of attention the guys will get when the Klits retire.

Tommy Morrison had shit going on for him outside of boxing, he'd a famous relative and was in a Rocky movie. That's why he was becoming a superstar, not because he's American. As for Joe Mesi, maybe a big fan base to some standard but not mainstream.



LOL come on man, that guarantees you superstardom anyway. That would be like saying "being a good player doesn't mean you'll make it as a quarterback in the NFL, you just need a 4.0 40, be able to throw the ball 100 yards and hit a water bottle, read defenses easier than a child's book, and completely dominate the SEC".

I think you're just looking for a way to account for the difference between Mayweather's PPV and Pac's PPV. Want to know what it's? People wanted to see Mayweather lose. We Americans love controversy and Mayweather provides it, that's probably why Pac only got a Road To Dallas and Mayweather got a 24/7. His antics get people to watch HBO because he makes a fool of himself. Mayweather isn't championed as America's fighter by the general public, he's a clown that people love to hate.

If we were talking about De La Hoya I'd agree but Mayweather is no DLH.

Thanks for addressing none of my points.

[JLUVBABY]

I think its fair to say that america doesnt back its fighters like other countries... we as a whole dont support our fighters like we do football teams basketball etc... its a shame too... the hattons, pacs, etc are like a franchise in their respected countries... they back their fighters and get behind them... thats the one bad thing about american boxing today... cnn and espn used to follow the sport down to usa tuesday night fights... a championship fight is lucky to get 30 seconds of coverage.... something bad has to happen or it has to be a super fight to get coverage these days....

[gravytrain]

I think its fair to say that america doesnt back its fighters like other countries... we as a whole dont support our fighters like we do football teams basketball etc... its a shame too... the hattons, pacs, etc are like a franchise in their respected countries... they back their fighters and get behind them... thats the one bad thing about american boxing today... cnn and espn used to follow the sport down to usa tuesday night fights... a championship fight is lucky to get 30 seconds of coverage.... something bad has to happen or it has to be a super fight to get coverage these days....

Come on, J. Obviously cats are getting plastered all over the media because they're American.. Or is it the 300 American athletes the media has to choose from? It's not like American boxers don't have to compete against the NFL and NBA that's loaded with superstars either. lol.

Only time I see boxing really get some attention is when Mayweather is going to fight, even then it's mainly just HBO and ESPN.

Thanks for addressing none of my points.

You haven't made any points and your argument completely collapsed on itself. If your argument had any credibility then Ward would have had more mainstream success. What you listed; "You need good management, promotion, good marketing, good matchmaking, natural charisma and a TV pleasing style." is what's going to make you a star in America, it'll make you a star whether you're American or Australian.

The biggest advantage American fighters have is the ability to start getting exposure the minute they start competing on the international level.

[SmartyBeardo]

Thanks for addressing none of my points.

Ollie, the fact is that boxing is largely ignored by the American media. It is like a shitty parent that ignores one child over another. They hope that their ignorance will make it just go away.

Americans catch a lot of grief for a perceived ultra patriotism. This is, once again, largely a creation of the media. It foments the patriotic fervor in an easily influenced demographic and hits the rest of us over the head with it over and over again.

Don't get me wrong, I feel extremely lucky to have been born in the USA, and I have and will defend my country. But, I believe that there is still a silent majority of us that defend the ideals of the Constitution of the United States of America over the geography, the flag or a sense of nationalism.

We believe in Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of happiness for all citizens, and we fight to evolve toward greater inclusiveness. We believe in The Rule of Law and Equal Justice under it. That does not mean that Equal Justice exists but simply that we the people continue to fight for it.

I believe in these truths for every man, woman and child on this planet, not just in the USA, and I fight every single day toward that end.

I like PWill, but I was pulling for the Argentinian. Does that make me less American? On the contrary, that is what Americans are all about.

I am a partner in a small local business that competes directly with three multinational corporations. When I speak at seminars and chamber meetings, I certainly tout the fact that we are local, that we are American, that our clients' money churns in the local economy. But, in the next breath I state that nobody should be doing business with my company solely because we are local and American. If our product sucks, you should not purchase it.

Competition breeds excellence. I admire excellence no matter what corner of the globe it originates from. Just because a boxer or a car is American does not mean I am interested in rooting for him or buying it.