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> Boxers Mayweather has ducked, Boxers mayweather is scared to fight
The Ollie Reed F...
post Oct 5 2010, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 5 2010, 02:31 AM) *
I respect your opinion. And I do agree that Zab that fought Floyd that night was a tough fight, BUT by principle cause he lost his previous fight, that fight should have never taken place. He should have fought a different opponent.

And Zab's only significant win(at WW) was against Spinks in the rematch, and we all know how shitty Judah's stint at welterweight has been. Just saying.


Let's not forget that by the time he fought Floyd Zab had already racked up THREE losses, the last coming his previous fight. By that time most people with a shred of common sense had worked out that Zab was not going to cut it at the very elite level, he'd come up short too many times already.
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ROLL DEEP
post Oct 5 2010, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Oct 5 2010, 03:24 AM) *
Let's not forget that by the time he fought Floyd Zab had already racked up THREE losses, the last coming his previous fight. By that time most people with a shred of common sense had worked out that Zab was not going to cut it at the very elite level, he'd come up short too many times already.



That's what I was thinking.


Although a slippery customer, his previous losses showed that he was beatable and he had looked like dog shit in fighting and was prone to not training 100%.
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Snoop
post Oct 5 2010, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 5 2010, 07:31 AM) *
I respect your opinion. And I do agree that Zab that fought Floyd that night was a tough fight, BUT by principle cause he lost his previous fight, that fight should have never taken place. He should have fought a different opponent.

Then he should have fought Baldomir right? I mean who did you honestly believe was the tougher challenge: Baldomir or Judah? I'm going to go out on the limb here and say Judah just underestimated Baldomir and that the Judah that showed up against Floyd would have wiped the floor with Baldomir. Maybe I'm making excuses, but try to seriously argue otherwise. And besides, Floyd DID fight Baldomir afterward so it's really pointless to argue which one was the tougher fight.

The only other guy out there was Margarito, which again is why I ask, Judah or Margarito? And apparently, according to D-Marv, the Marg fight wasn't being made because of Arum, not Floyd? Either way, I say the criticisms of Floyd's WW resume rest on that choice. Judah or Margarito?

QUOTE
And Zab's only significant win(at WW) was against Spinks in the rematch, and we all know how shitty Judah's stint at welterweight has been. Just saying.

Zab's resume has been pretty shitty, but let's look at it at the time the Mayweather fight was being proposed. True, Judah only had one significant win, but it was THE BEST win you could have had in the division. I mean Zab had won the WW Championship and if Floyd didn't fight him, then he's ducking Zab right?

QUOTE
Let's not forget that by the time he fought Floyd Zab had already racked up THREE losses, the last coming his previous fight. By that time most people with a shred of common sense had worked out that Zab was not going to cut it at the very elite level, he'd come up short too many times already.

I'm not sure how AT THAT TIME you can say Zab wasn't going to cut it at the elite level when he LEGITIMATELY won the Undisputed WW Championship. I mean in hindsight it's pretty easy to see, but at the time people were seeing the Judah/Mayweather fight as pretty damn legit. I'm amazed at how fast people forget things.

Remember, the Judah and Mayweather fight was planned immediately after Judah KO'd Spinks, with Mayweather taking a first time WW tune-up fight against Mitchell and Judah taking an "easy" fight against Baldomir. Nobody expected Judah to be a complete dumbass and blow the Baldomir fight (Anyone who said they did predict that outcome, I'd LOVE to see the proof).

Just glancing at Floyd's run at WW, it's easy to see the holes in his resume (don't get me wrong, they're there), but when you look back at the details, it's kind of just how things played out. I mean people didn't have a problem with him fighting Baldomir (as sucky as he was, he was the legit champ), didn't have a problem with him moving up to 154 to challenge DLH, and people were pretty damn excited when he took on Hatton at 147. The other guys just kinda got lost in the process.

Again, the only solution I see would have been if Floyd fought more frequently, and/or if not "retiring" after the Hatton fight, which are both legitimate arguments, but IMO really the only legit ones out there.

This post has been edited by Snoop: Oct 5 2010, 11:54 AM
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thehype
post Oct 5 2010, 03:35 PM
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Be careful Snoop...you're walking a thin line between making sense and defending Floyd Mayweather.

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The Ollie Reed F...
post Oct 5 2010, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (Snoop @ Oct 5 2010, 11:52 AM) *
I'm not sure how AT THAT TIME you can say Zab wasn't going to cut it at the elite level when he LEGITIMATELY won the Undisputed WW Championship. I mean in hindsight it's pretty easy to see, but at the time people were seeing the Judah/Mayweather fight as pretty damn legit. I'm amazed at how fast people forget things.


No not really Snoop. After his loss to Kostya you could say OK fair enough he got caught by a big punch against a great fighter. I'll give him that one. Then he has a loss to Spinks (who I thought got a fucken gift against Mayorga) and not to mention he even suffered a flash knockdown against the feather fisted crackhead.

OK so now that's 2 strikes against him. So he comes back and redeems himself with an impressive win against a Spinks whom had exhausted himself with his ring walk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

So here we can say young Zab has got his career back on track, then all he has do is beat the journeyman Baldomir before moving on to the biggest fight of his career. There's some motivation right there, right? wrong! He goes out and loses (and got hurt in the fight) and just about blows his payday against Floyd.

Put the sum total together and it's easy to assume that:

A) He hasn't got a great chin.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Lacks focus and motivation
C) Has come up short 3 times in title shots, and only one of them was against a great fighter.
D) Possibly needs a better corner to get him on track.

Fair play to him he came out and gave Floyd a tough fight for the first 4 rounds but I would've been amazed, just about Buster Douglas/Mike Tyson amazed if he had beaten Floyd that night, his pedigree was already there to see.
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Snoop
post Oct 5 2010, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Oct 5 2010, 10:55 PM) *
No not really Snoop. After his loss to Kostya you could say OK fair enough he got caught by a big punch against a great fighter. I'll give him that one. Then he has a loss to Spinks (who I thought got a fucken gift against Mayorga) and not to mention he even suffered a flash knockdown against the feather fisted crackhead.

OK so now that's 2 strikes against him. So he comes back and redeems himself with an impressive win against a Spinks whom had exhausted himself with his ring walk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

So here we can say young Zab has got his career back on track, then all he has do is beat the journeyman Baldomir before moving on to the biggest fight of his career. There's some motivation right there, right? wrong! He goes out and loses (and got hurt in the fight) and just about blows his payday against Floyd.

Put the sum total together and it's easy to assume that:

A) He hasn't got a great chin.
B) Lacks focus and motivation
C) Has come up short 3 times in title shots, and only one of them was against a great fighter.
D) Possibly needs a better corner to get him on track.

Fair play to him he came out and gave Floyd a tough fight for the first 4 rounds but I would've been amazed, just about Buster Douglas/Mike Tyson amazed if he had beaten Floyd that night, his pedigree was already there to see.

So who should Floyd have fought after Judah lost to Baldomir? Baldomir right? Well he did so even though everything you say about Zab may be true, the same question remains:

Who would have been a better opponent at the time? Judah or Margarito?

It's cool of you think Margarito would have been the tougher challenge, just realize that you're saying that if you're calling the Judah fight a farce and be ready to defend that position.

I also think you're really underrating Judah's win over Spinks. As weird as it sounds, Spinks, being one of the very few fighters to legitimately unify titles in ANY weight class, was THE man to beat at welterweight. Therefore Judah was legitimately THE man after Spinks and Baldomir was THE man after Judah. I mean maybe it all conveniently worked in Floyd's favor, but if we're going to stick to the logic of how linear championships work (and presumably linear championships is what all fighters should strive for), then Floyd's choices are actually justified.

Shit, I too find it strange that Cotto, Margarito, and Williams all somehow got left out the mix when the dust settled, but when you actually look at each step Floyd took, it's actually not all that ridiculous.

QUOTE
Be careful Snoop...you're walking a thin line between making sense and defending Floyd Mayweather.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

LOL. I view it like this. Mayweather is human so there are things I like about him and things I dislike about him. I find it funny how a lot of people on this board have categorized it to either completely hating him or completely loving him.

This post has been edited by Snoop: Oct 5 2010, 11:38 PM
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Lil-lightsout
post Oct 6 2010, 12:08 AM
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Zab WAS the man at welterweight(briefly), after he lost to Spinks, he no longer was the man. He lost in January 2006 to Baldy, and 3 months later he gets a shot at the P4P king!!! I do not care how anyone tries to justify that fight, it's a farce. I would have 1000 times rather PBF fought Margarito or anyone else decently rated at that time.

Speaking of questionable resumes, here is Floyd's in the last 5 years.

2005- Past his prime blown up welterweight Sharmba Mitchell.
2006- Hey I just lost my previous fight Zab Judah.
2006- Baldomir...need I say more.
2007- Seen better days Oscar DeLa Hoya.
2007- Blown up jr. welterweight Ricky Hatton.
2009- Really blown up lightweight Juan Manuel Marquez
2010- Good win against Mosley, though not his best days(SSM), beautiful performance by Floyd regardless.

Regardless of all the BS in boxing, this is pretty shitty and hardly someone who claims himself to be the GOAT. There were better fights out there, and this is only 7 fights in 5 years.

Defend that.
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Snoop
post Oct 6 2010, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 6 2010, 05:08 AM) *
Zab WAS the man at welterweight(briefly), after he lost to Spinks, he no longer was the man. He lost in January 2006 to Baldy, and 3 months later he gets a shot at the P4P king!!! I do not care how anyone tries to justify that fight, it's a farce. I would have 1000 times rather PBF fought Margarito or anyone else decently rated at that time.

Speaking of questionable resumes, here is Floyd's in the last 5 years.

2005- Past his prime blown up welterweight Sharmba Mitchell.
2006- Hey I just lost my previous fight Zab Judah.
2006- Baldomir...need I say more.
2007- Seen better days Oscar DeLa Hoya.
2007- Blown up jr. welterweight Ricky Hatton.
2009- Really blown up lightweight Juan Manuel Marquez
2010- Good win against Mosley, though not his best days(SSM), beautiful performance by Floyd regardless.

Regardless of all the BS in boxing, this is pretty shitty and hardly someone who claims himself to be the GOAT. There were better fights out there, and this is only 7 fights in 5 years.

Defend that.

First and foremost, I'm only "defending" Floyd's choices before his "retirement" after the Hatton fight, but let's see:

2005- Past his prime blown up welterweight Sharmba Mitchell.
After Judah KO'd Spinks, the promoters were already setting up a Mayweather/Judah title fight AND the fans were clamoring for it. Since this was Floyd's first WW fight, I saw it as a tune-up for Judah (slick southpaw, slightly slower). Some see tune-ups as legitimate, some don't, but I saw it as a tune-up, not him ducking anyone.

2006- Hey I just lost my previous fight Zab Judah.
Again for me it just boils down to who else was out there? Margarito? Fine. If you think Marg was the tougher challenge, like I said, that's cool. It's pretty much an "agree to disagree" kinda thing. All I know is that Judah gave Floyd his toughest fight to date and I was pretty damn entertained watching it.

2006- Baldomir...need I say more.
As shitty as Baldomir was, NOBODY here can deny that he was, sadly enough, THE man at Welterweight. Might have been a lucky man to be there, might have been the shittiest fighter to have ever been there, but he was THE man nonetheless. And I bet you anything if Floyd took on Marg instead, people would start saying shit like, "Mayweather ducked Baldomir!" as asinine as that sounds.

2007- Seen better days Oscar DeLa Hoya.
Going up to challenge a naturally bigger fighter for a 154 strap AND a career high payday was a bad choice? I can't hate on him for that. PLUS there were plenty of fight fans picking DLH to win this one. I mean who else was there to fight? Margarito? C'mon man. That doesn't make career sense OR financial sense.

2007- Blown up jr. welterweight Ricky Hatton.
I mean in retrospect the fight is ridiculous but at the time Ricky Hatton was an highly ranked (overhyped IMO) undefeated fighter. For whatever reason people were generally okay with this fight. I think most people would have been okay if he took on Hatton, Cotto, or Margarito at that point.

2009- Really blown up lightweight Juan Manuel Marquez
I can agree with this one being questionable, but I think he did it to make a statement since Pacquiao struggled with Marquez and Floyd toyed with him. Not the best opponent, but after a nearly two year retirement, we could have gotten a lot worse.

2010- Good win against Mosley, though not his best days(SSM), beautiful performance by Floyd regardless.
Apart from Pacquiao, Mosley was the best choice out there. But we seem to agree on this point.

Regardless of all the BS in boxing, this is pretty shitty and hardly someone who claims himself to be the GOAT. There were better fights out there, and this is only 7 fights in 5 years.
Overall, I agree with you man. His resume does not reflect the GOAT status that he claims, and I've repeatedly stated my dislike of him boasting that. But looking at his WW resume pre-Hatton, it was just kind of a result of the circumstances, not that he was deliberately ducking anyone. I mean the only two things I think he could have done to have a resume live up to people's expectations was to 1) fight more often or 2) stop taking these retirements. Both legitimate criticisms, but at the same time, you question how much of it is Floyd and how much of it is just the current trend of how often fighters fight.

What Floyd does NOW is going to be crucial to his legacy, but I just feel people glance at his past and write it off before actually looking at it. So really Floyd's choices in opponents don't really bother me because I can empathize with why he made them, but what does bother me are the conclusions he drew from the choices he made.
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Snoop
post Oct 6 2010, 01:11 AM
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Better yet, let me just put it this way. During his WW campaign pre-Hatton retirement, I don't feel that Mayweather ducked anyone, but it somehow didn't result in a GOAT resume either.
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Oct 6 2010, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (Snoop @ Oct 5 2010, 11:26 PM) *
I also think you're really underrating Judah's win over Spinks. As weird as it sounds, Spinks, being one of the very few fighters to legitimately unify titles in ANY weight class, was THE man to beat at welterweight. Therefore Judah was legitimately THE man after Spinks and Baldomir was THE man after Judah. I mean maybe it all conveniently worked in Floyd's favor, but if we're going to stick to the logic of how linear championships work (and presumably linear championships is what all fighters should strive for), then Floyd's choices are actually justified.


No I'm not underrating his win over Spinks. If you re-read my post I mention that it seems like he has got his career back on track after that second fight. However he then went and promptly lost to Baldomir, that should tell you everything you need to know about Zab Judah.

As for Spinks yeah he was the man at WW and it is impressive when you become unified. However the WW division was comparitively weak back then. Haye unified CW and Cokezaghe unified SMW. What does that mean? Actually although I hate his guts I give Cokezaghe more props than Spinks as a fighter. My point being you can unify a weak division.

And frankly Judah was an ass for losing to Spinks the first time.

When talking about guys Floyd should've fought, yeah I would've preferred to see him in there with Margarito. Hindsight is 20/20 but at the time I think more fans wanted that fight. I also remember Winky Wright who had beaten Mosley twice at 154 and was a big name in the sport practically offering to chop his left arm off to come down to 147 and fight Floyd. Floyd really didn't want none of that either.

We both agree about Williams but as he came on later in the piece after beating Marg I will leave him out of the discussion for now.

For what it's worth I do enjoy these debates, FightHype is our version of a bunch of guys hanging round the barbers shop arguing about who was better. I hope some of you guys are around in 20 years. Then we'll really have this shit crackin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Fucken Fitz will be digging up threads from 17 years ago saying "do you remember when you said THIS?" LOL
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