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> Prime Holyfield Vs. Prime James Toney, cruiserweight
JonnyBlaze
post Sep 29 2008, 10:30 PM
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Who do you all think would of won this fight at cruiserweight??There's no doubt in my mind Holyfield would of whooped him..Holy would be countering counter shots from Toney and would be all over him the whole fight..Holyfield's jab would cause major problems for him too..

Also,I'm wondering who you all think could of beaten Holyfield at cruiserweight and why??In my opinion,I'd say no one..
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King Eugene
post Sep 30 2008, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Sep 29 2008, 11:30 PM) [snapback]405843[/snapback]
Who do you all think would of won this fight at cruiserweight??There's no doubt in my mind Holyfield would of whooped him..Holy would be countering counter shots from Toney and would be all over him the whole fight..Holyfield's jab would cause major problems for him too..

Also,I'm wondering who you all think could of beaten Holyfield at cruiserweight and why??In my opinion,I'd say no one..

If that was Toney's prime when he lost to Roy, Holyfield would have stopped him no doubt!
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JonnyBlaze
post Sep 30 2008, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE(3King3 @ Sep 30 2008, 01:51 AM) [snapback]405870[/snapback]
If that was Toney's prime when he lost to Roy, Holyfield would have stopped him no doubt!

I have been sayin this a lot it seems about different fighters but Toney just lost a insane amount of weight to fight Jones..After the fight Toney had to get hooked up to a IV right away because he drained himself out too much before the fight and the fight itself did some too..I think Roy would of beat him either way but I do sometimes wonder..

Holy would of really put it to Toney and at cruiserweight I think Holy would of been able to be the first person ever to hurt Toney for real..

I remember hearing Jirov hit Toney in the kidneys soo many times Toney was pissing blood for 2 weeks after the fight..
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BigG
post Sep 30 2008, 06:27 AM
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All I know is the Toney of the HOLYFIELD fight (the one where he beat the unholy piss out of Holy) would have still given Holyfield a tough fight. Toney was no joke in that fight. Maybe he wouldn't have beaten Evander but it definitely would have been very competitive.
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Spyder
post Sep 30 2008, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Sep 30 2008, 03:12 AM) [snapback]405871[/snapback]
I remember hearing Jirov hit Toney in the kidneys soo many times Toney was pissing blood for 2 weeks after the fight..

I think that was the first Rahman fight that you remember hearing that. Jirov hit Toney low a few times, but I don't remember him hitting James in the back like Hasbeen did.
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JonnyBlaze
post Sep 30 2008, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE(Spyder @ Sep 30 2008, 07:06 AM) [snapback]405878[/snapback]
I think that was the first Rahman fight that you remember hearing that. Jirov hit Toney low a few times, but I don't remember him hitting James in the back like Hasbeen did.

It was either the Jirov,Rahman,or Peter fight..I think it was the Jirov fight though..
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King Eugene
post Oct 1 2008, 08:20 PM
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James Toney himself has stated that Roy was just the better fighter that night, no excuses. So like I said if that was his Prime then Holy would have stopped him but if it wasn't I'd still give Holy the decision but Toney was giving him a pretty good beating til it was stopped.
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Big Slim Sweet
post Oct 2 2008, 10:09 AM
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How are you proposing this matchup though? Holyfield as a cruiserweight was in his mid-20's absolute prime. Toney as a cruiserweight was past his best. Are you saying, the Holyfield of 1986-1988 vs. the Toney of 2000-2003? Or is this more a p4p thing where you envision the best version of either man and fit him so to speak into a 200 pound frame.

Cause they're very different scenarios. A mid-20's Holyfield would have beaten a mid-30's Toney, no doubt, although I think it still would have been an entertaining fight and by no means a one-sided knockout. Like Bernard Hopkins said, "Ain't nobody knocking James Toney out."

P4P prime vs. prime however I believe the matchup favors Toney. Holyfield is the kind of fighter James has always loved to fight - he comes right at you looking to trade shots and is wide open for counters. Toney, OTOH, is the kind of fighter even a prime Holyfield struggled with. Look at his first battle with Qawi (though Holyfield blasted him to bits in the rematch, Qaawi himself was way past his best by that point). Holyfield also had some difficulty with Bert Cooper, who while nothing like JT style-wise had a similar body type. Holyfield loved to fight on the inside and gave away a lot of his natural advantages when facing smaller guys for the pure thrill of slugging it out, and that would have played right into Lights Out's hands.

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JonnyBlaze
post Oct 3 2008, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 2 2008, 10:09 AM) [snapback]406046[/snapback]
How are you proposing this matchup though? Holyfield as a cruiserweight was in his mid-20's absolute prime. Toney as a cruiserweight was past his best. Are you saying, the Holyfield of 1986-1988 vs. the Toney of 2000-2003? Or is this more a p4p thing where you envision the best version of either man and fit him so to speak into a 200 pound frame.

Cause they're very different scenarios. A mid-20's Holyfield would have beaten a mid-30's Toney, no doubt, although I think it still would have been an entertaining fight and by no means a one-sided knockout. Like Bernard Hopkins said, "Ain't nobody knocking James Toney out."

P4P prime vs. prime however I believe the matchup favors Toney. Holyfield is the kind of fighter James has always loved to fight - he comes right at you looking to trade shots and is wide open for counters. Toney, OTOH, is the kind of fighter even a prime Holyfield struggled with. Look at his first battle with Qawi (though Holyfield blasted him to bits in the rematch, Qaawi himself was way past his best by that point). Holyfield also had some difficulty with Bert Cooper, who while nothing like JT style-wise had a similar body type. Holyfield loved to fight on the inside and gave away a lot of his natural advantages when facing smaller guys for the pure thrill of slugging it out, and that would have played right into Lights Out's hands.

I think Toney was still in his prime at cruiserweight..No one beat him there and he fought really tough guys..Holyfield is a lot more diverse of a fighter than you are saying..Holyfield is the complete fighter..He can fight any way and can adapt to anyone when he is in 100% health..When Holyfield is "sluggin it out" he isn't just going crazy on his opponent,he is thinking the whole time..Watch him more closely on the inside..He does have time where he know he has to go all out and when he does that,it normally comes out on top..Toney was weighing in the cruiserweight range in 95..He fought Greg Everett in 95 for a cruiserweight belt..He also fought McCallum at cruiserweight too..How familiar are you with Toney's record??Do you just know his big fights??Noone has KO'd Toney but I don't know how many of Holyfields punches he could of taken if they were flush..Jirov could of won the Toney fight but Toney came through in the last round..Also,James Toney and Qawi are definitely not the same body type AT ALL!!Toney is 5'10,Qawi was like 5'6..Qawi was soooo stocky..Toney was a decent sized cruiserweight but nowhere near the build of Qawi..They both are hard hard to hit,thats about all ya can compare them by..Qawi is a extremely heavy hitter and Toney is a amazing counter puncher that has to break you down to put you out at cruiser..

The Holyfield/Qawi first fight was the first time Holy even went past 8 ROUNDS!!!!!He was fighting a 15 round fight and had only gone 8 before that fight..I know he had to of been thinking about his stamina the whole fight..Also,Holy lost 15 lbs in the ring that night too..It is insanity!!Shows ya what kinda hell he'd go through..

Holy would of known not to try to go all out on Toney,he would have varied his attack a lot..Toney has a good jab but Holy's jab would of been a lot more effective by setting up left hooks when Toney slips the jab..Toney is a master working off the ropes,but Holy is a master of bustin you up bad against the ropes soo I would really of wanted to see who owns the ropes in that fight at cruiserweight..
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Big Slim Sweet
post Oct 3 2008, 11:11 AM
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I'm very familiar with James Toney's record and while I know he made a hell of a cruiserweight and fought there often I still don't believe that was his best weight as a fighter, nor was he in his physical prime for the majority of his fights there.

Really though, who knows what JT's best weight was? He's struggled with it so badly throughout his career. Weight problems at middleweight, weight problems at heavyweight. I'll offer my opinion that had he been committed he could have made one of the best light heavyweights of all time.

Toney and Qawi are similar fighters with respect to Holyfield. Shorter, stocky, hard to hit. Also, I didn't compare their body types, I compared Toney's to Bert Cooper's. Again though, with respect to fighting Holyfield.

You're wrong about Toney needing that 12th round to beat Jirov. He was well ahead on points before the knockdown and was beating the daylights out of Jirov, who was giving back good too but still getting whipped. That is one of my all-time favorite fights to watch, and together with Holyfield-Qawi 1, the two best fights in cruiserweight history, IMO.

Holyfield is a much more complete fighter than a guy who just goes in and slugs it out. He is always thinking in the ring, and he can adapt. But I'm not willing to say he's the professor James Toney is in the ring. His tendency to trade would favor Toney's inside countering skills, and as underrated a puncher as Holyfield has always been I don't believe he can knock out JT. However, if prime Holy had better hand speed than James he would definitely win a decision.
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