[rusty_trombone]

I don't understand why you think it's unbelievable he could have been a leader for the masses. Malcolm X never finished high school and was self-educated in the state correctional facility. And disagree with the fact as much as you want, but hip-hop music, then and now, has an incredible grip on the youth. Have you ever actually listened to his music? My guess is 'no' since you're unaware of the fact he was trying to leave Death Row at the time of his murder. My point is that people here seem jump to ridiculous conclusions based on not liking rap or his image, without knowing anything about the man, and when anything else proves the contrary of him being a ruthless, uneducated thug rapper, they refuse to listen.

Not unbelievable, just untrue. Malcom X was a leader of his people, and sought cultural reforms. Tupac had rap videos, and imaged himself as a thug. He could have been a cultural leader, but he cared about money more than leading his people. Just perpetuating the same bullshit, no one knows why Tupac got killed, but everyone knows why Malcolm X did. Ali was a leader, King was a leader, X was a leader people listened to them.

And as far as his image, he created it, so don't cry about that shit either

This post has been edited by rusty_trombone: May 21 2009, 06:23 PM

[Snoop]

Not unbelievable, just untrue. Malcom X was a leader of his people, and sought cultural reforms. Tupac had rap videos, and imaged himself as a thug. He could have been a cultural leader, but he cared about money more than leading his people. Just perpetuating the same bullshit, no one knows why Tupac got killed, but everyone knows why Malcolm X did. Ali was a leader, King was a leader, X was a leader people listened to them.

And as far as his image, he created it, so don't cry about that shit either

Again, have you actually listened to his music? Nearly every one of his albums had tracks advocating social and cultural reform, but of course, you would never hear about them if you never bothered to open your mind.

T.H.U.G.L.I.F.E (which I'm guessing is why you refer to him as a "thug") was a code of ethics he created for the U.S. ghettos in efforts to curb growing gang violence and was modeled from Huey P Newton and the Black Panthers.

And his image is subjective, depending on how much you actually know about the person, which most Tupac detractors, like yourself, don't bother to learn about.

Do I think Tupac was on par with a Malcom or a King? No. But did he have the ideas, the following, and the potential? Yes, definitely. You're reasoning to say he didn't seems to stem from ignorance of his personal character and disdain for the hip-hop culture rather than listening to facts.

This post has been edited by snoopnick: May 21 2009, 07:26 PM

[rusty_trombone]

Again, have you actually listened to his music? Nearly every one of his albums had tracks advocating social and cultural reform, but of course, you would never hear about them if you never bothered to open your mind.

T.H.U.G.L.I.F.E (which I'm guessing is why you refer to him as a "thug") was a code of ethics he created for the U.S. ghettos in efforts to curb growing gang violence and was modeled from Huey P Newton and the Black Panthers.

And his image is subjective, depending on how much you actually know about the person, which most Tupac detractors, like yourself, don't bother to learn about.

Do I think Tupac was on par with a Malcom or a King? No. But did he have the ideas, the following, and the potential? Yes, definitely. You're reasoning to say he didn't seems to stem from ignorance of his personal character and disdain for the hip-hop culture rather than listening to facts.

Out on bail fresh outta jail, California dreamin
Soon as I stepped on the scene, I'm hearin hoochies screamin
Fiendin for money and alcohol
the life of a west side playa where cowards die
and its all war
Only in Cali where we riot not rally to live and die
In L.A. we wearin Chucks not Ballies (that's right, uh)
Dressed in Locs and khaki suits and ride is what we do
Flossin but have caution we collide with other crews
Famous cause we program worldwide
Let'em recognize from Long Beach to Rosecrans
Bumpin and grindin like a slow jam, it's west side
So you know the row won't bow down to no man
Say what you say
But give me that bomb beat from Dre
Let me serenade the streets of L.A.
From Oakland to Sactown
The Bay Area and back down
Cali is where they put they mack down

how progressive. what part of this song, one of his most popular, is uplifting? The half he doesn't rap is worse. Image is what you create, and he chose to be a part of this. I don't remember the last time King rapped being a Georgia playa, or Malcolm X told bitches where he puts his mack down. Do i need to put more lyrics up here. Get your shit together, make heroes out of heroes, not rappers and sports stars.

Finger tips on the hips as I dip, gotta get a tight grip, don't slip
Loose lips sink ships, it's a trip
I love the way she licks her lips, see me jocking
Put a little twist in her hips cause I'm watching
Conversations on the phone til the break of dawn
Now we all alone, why the lights on?
Turn 'em off, time to set it off, get you wet and soft
Something's on your mind, let it off
You don't know me, you just met me, you won't let me
Well if I couldn't have it (silly rabbit) why you sweating me?
It's a lot of real G's doing time
Cause a groupy bit the truth and told a lie
You picked the wrong guy baby if you're too fly
You need to hit the door, search for a new guy
Cause I only got one night in town
Break out or be clown, baby doll are you down?
I get around

How about groupie bitches?

[Snoop]

Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
I say the darker the flesh then the deeper the roots
I give a holler to my sisters on welfare
Tupac cares, and don't nobody else care
And uhh, I know they like to beat ya down a lot
When you come around the block brothas clown a lot
But please don't cry, dry your eyes, never let up
Forgive but don't forget, girl keep your head up
And when he tells you you ain't nuttin don't believe him
And if he can't learn to love you you should leave him
Cause sista you don't need him
And I ain't tryin to gas ya up, I just call em how I see em
You know it makes me unhappy (what's that)
When brothas make babies, and leave a young mother to be a pappy
And since we all came from a woman
Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman
I wonder why we take from our women
Why we rape our women, do we hate our women?
I think it's time to kill for our women
Time to heal our women, be real to our women
And if we don't we'll have a race of babies
That will hate the ladies, that make the babies
And since a man can't make one
He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one
So will the real men get up
I know you're fed up ladies, but keep your head up

Tupac (Keep Ya Head Up)

Time to question our lifestyle, look how we live
Smokin weed like it ain't no thang, so even kids
wanna try now, they lie down and get ran through
Nobody watched 'em clockin the evil man do
Faced with the demons, addicted to hearin victims screamin
Guess we was evil since birth, product of cursed semens
Cause even our birthdays is cursed days
A born thug in the first place, the worst ways
I'd love to see the block in peace
With no more dealers and crooked cops, the only way to stop the beast
And only we can change
It's up to us to clean up the streets, it ain't the same
Too many murders, too many funerals and too many tears
Just seen another brother buried plus I knew him for years
Passed by his family, but what could I say?
Keep yo' head up and try to keep the faith
And pray for better days

Tupac (Better Dayz)

[Snoop]

how progressive. what part of this song, one of his most popular, is uplifting? The half he doesn't rap is worse. Image is what you create, and he chose to be a part of this. I don't remember the last time King rapped being a Georgia playa, or Malcolm X told bitches where he puts his mack down. Do i need to put more lyrics up here. Get your shit together, make heroes out of heroes, not rappers and sports stars.

Here's the thing. I have never denied that Tupac had contradictions or even music I didn't agree with. But what seems to be happening is that people are denying another part of him existed. People want to reduce him to some uneducated street gangster when they know absolutely nothing about him. Am I claiming he was the last Malcolm X or Martin Luther King? No. (Although I think it is VERY unfair to hold him those standards since the black community in the United States has changed DRASTICALLY). But I don't deny him the potential to have those ideas given how much I know about his life and the music he made.

Do I think his shit is the most socially conscious hip-hop out there? Hell no. Not when you have artists like Mos Def (at least the old Mos Def), Common, Talib Kweli, etc. But none of those artists had the same type of following (from consumers of all races) that Pac had. These days it's your 50 cents, Soulja Boy's and all that other stupid shit that has the public's attention. Tupac was more than that and it's unfair to categorize him with the like without knowing a damn thing about the man.

How about groupie bitches?

Oh please. It's not like this forum has had a history of advocating gender equality as evidenced by the numerous threads about "beating up women that deserved it" or the other sexually objectifying avatars I've seen on this page. I don't really judge people about it, but don't start pointing fingers and chastising people about objectifying behavior like "groupie bitches" when most of ya'lls comments aren't any better.

[BigG]

I was never the biggest Tupac fan but "Dear Mama" is still one of the greatest tracks ever. Lyrically he was never on the level of a Nas, Common, Talib Kweli, Notorious B.I.G but he was a great ARTIST who made great music with meaning.

[Snoop]

I was never the biggest Tupac fan but "Dear Mama" is still one of the greatest tracks ever. Lyrically he was never on the level of a Nas, Common, Talib Kweli, Notorious B.I.G but he was a great ARTIST who made great music with meaning.

Exactly. Tupac wasn't a great lyricist, but he was an artist who conveyed emotion very effectively through his music.

[BigG]

Exactly. Tupac wasn't a great lyricist, but he was an artist who conveyed emotion very effectively through his music.

He was also a very charismatic person.

[rusty_trombone]

Am I claiming he was the last Malcolm X or Martin Luther King? No. (Although I think it is VERY unfair to hold him those standards since the black community in the United States has changed DRASTICALLY).

Tell that to Obama.

[rusty_trombone]

Oh please. It's not like this forum has had a history of advocating gender equality as evidenced by the numerous threads about "beating up women that deserved it" or the other sexually objectifying avatars I've seen on this page. I don't really judge people about it, but don't start pointing fingers and chastising people about objectifying behavior like "groupie bitches" when most of ya'lls comments aren't any better.

Yeah, but we're not talking about us, we don't have people claim that we're the new vocal leaders for social change of a community. My comments don't have to be better, I'm not claiming to be the voice of a generation. Stay on topic, this argument is shit. I'm pretty sure I'm done with this discussion though. Choose better heroes.

This post has been edited by rusty_trombone: May 22 2009, 01:10 PM