[thehype]

If that is the case, please tell me how Mayorga outpointed the purely skilled fighter in Forrest in the rematch? I mean you would think Forrest should have easily outboxed Mayorga, but he couldn't. And Forrest was in his prime.

He didn't...I actually had Forrest winning the rematch, regardless of what the judges said.

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But that's besides the point. Vernon went in there tentative due to the first fight, giving Mayorga just enough respect to allow him to fight his fight, which is usually an ugly brawl with him swinging wildly and landing some awkward, but effective punches. Surely you're not trying to imply that Mayorga was a more skilled boxer than Vernon Forrest, are you? When Forrest was boxing, he was getting the better of Mayorga....where he made his mistake is when he opted to exchange with Mayorga, which allowed Mayorga to bank more rounds in the eyes of the judges. Just because he won on the scorecards doesn't mean he "outboxed" Forrest.

I mean, I'm not saying that a less skilled fighter can't win a fight...I'm just saying that it's very rare to see a less skilled fighter using his jab effectively to control a fight, which is what Mayorga was actually doing against Mosley.

I seriously think Mosley might have trouble at first with Berto's speed and skills. But I just think with Naz, Shane is now at a different level than with his dad. I just do not see Berto being able to take Shane's punches. I guess we will see in 2 months what Mosley we get.

A different level? Shane's not at a different level. He just actually has a gameplan now when he goes into fights. You can't teach an old dog new trickes. He still does the same stuff he's always done...that flicking jab, the wicked left hook to the body and the overhand right...the only difference now is that he has a guy in his corner who can give him the right strategy to implement. Thus far, we saw that union work perfectly aginst Antonio Margarito...but I mean, it was Antonio Margarito, who isn't exactly the best boxer when it comes to technique. Don't get me wrong, Shane deserves credit for the impressive win, but in my opinion, his performance was helped by the fact that Margarito went right at him without even using his jab. Stick a jab in Shane's face and he gets flustered. It'll be up to Brother Naaz to get Shane to adjust, but I'm afraid Berto's particular style, with his running and clinching, might be all it takes to survive an ugly fight and win a decision.

For everyone who keeps talking about Berto not being able to take his punches....I mean....I really hope you guys are right. I like Shane and all, but the only guys he's stopped or "destroyed" in the past 8 years are Antonio Margarito, Ricardo Mayorga and Fernando Vargas. Think about that for a second. Since losing to Venon Forrest, he's fought 10 different opponents and only stopped 3 of them...1 (Mayorga) in the final seconds of the bout and the other (Vargas) was wrecked before he stepped into the ring. Call me crazy, but I think Berto has an excellent chance of being one of the other 7 guys and going the distance with Shane...and if it goes the distance, don't be surprised to hear those scorecards.

[thehype]

EXCEPT he will never fight Paul Williams. If Williams could get back down to 147 I just don't see that as a fight that PBF would ever contemplate.

It doesn't matter if Floyd would contemplate it or not. AL HAYMON is not going to contemplate. Seeing as how Al Haymon manages BOTH Floyd Mayweather and Paul Williams, there's no reason for him to have them fight each other unless both guys have exhausted all of their options.

[The Ollie Reed F...]

It doesn't matter if Floyd would contemplate it or not. AL HAYMON is not going to contemplate. Seeing as how Al Haymon manages BOTH Floyd Mayweather and Paul Williams, there's no reason for him to have them fight each other unless both guys have exhausted all of their options.

Even if Haymon gave it the green light I really don't see Floyd getting in his ear to take that particular fight. LOL His zero is too precious to him.

[Lil-lightsout]

He didn't...I actually had Forrest winning the rematch, regardless of what the judges said.

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But that's besides the point. Vernon went in there tentative due to the first fight, giving Mayorga just enough respect to allow him to fight his fight, which is usually an ugly brawl with him swinging wildly and landing some awkward, but effective punches. Surely you're not trying to imply that Mayorga was a more skilled boxer than Vernon Forrest, are you? When Forrest was boxing, he was getting the better of Mayorga....where he made his mistake is when he opted to exchange with Mayorga, which allowed Mayorga to bank more rounds in the eyes of the judges. Just because he won on the scorecards doesn't mean he "outboxed" Forrest.

I mean, I'm not saying that a less skilled fighter can't win a fight...I'm just saying that it's very rare to see a less skilled fighter using his jab effectively to control a fight, which is what Mayorga was actually doing against Mosley.



A different level? Shane's not at a different level. He just actually has a gameplan now when he goes into fights. You can't teach an old dog new trickes. He still does the same stuff he's always done...that flicking jab, the wicked left hook to the body and the overhand right...the only difference now is that he has a guy in his corner who can give him the right strategy to implement. Thus far, we saw that union work perfectly aginst Antonio Margarito...but I mean, it was Antonio Margarito, who isn't exactly the best boxer when it comes to technique. Don't get me wrong, Shane deserves credit for the impressive win, but in my opinion, his performance was helped by the fact that Margarito went right at him without even using his jab. Stick a jab in Shane's face and he gets flustered. It'll be up to Brother Naaz to get Shane to adjust, but I'm afraid Berto's particular style, with his running and clinching, might be all it takes to survive an ugly fight and win a decision.

For everyone who keeps talking about Berto not being able to take his punches....I mean....I really hope you guys are right. I like Shane and all, but the only guys he's stopped or "destroyed" in the past 8 years are Antonio Margarito, Ricardo Mayorga and Fernando Vargas. Think about that for a second. Since losing to Venon Forrest, he's fought 10 different opponents and only stopped 3 of them...1 (Mayorga) in the final seconds of the bout and the other (Vargas) was wrecked before he stepped into the ring. Call me crazy, but I think Berto has an excellent chance of being one of the other 7 guys and going the distance with Shane...and if it goes the distance, don't be surprised to hear those scorecards.

I never said or implied Mayorga was a better boxer than Forrest, but he did WIN the rematch fair and square. And I always hated him then, and wanted Forrest to decapitate him.
My point about Mayorga is that he is a difficult guy to fight. He is awkward, tough, and hits extremely hard. I thought Shane felt his power early on, and was a little hesitant in there. Plus like Shane has already stated, it got stale with his Dad. So I am sure he was not at his best against Mayorga too. Just like his fights against Cruz and Estrada, surely he was not at peak form for those type of guys. Ever see Mayweather-Burton? Think Floyd was at his best for that fight?



Well I consider it a different level if you IMPROVE on your game regardless. Sure it was just one fight, but there is no denying he was on another level that night. No one came remotely close to doing what Shane did to AM. To me and many others, it just seemed that was a different Mosley in there that night. Mosley is going to be a year older from that fight, so I am curious to see if he has another performance like that in him. I like the way Shane talks and acts recently, he makes me believe in him. So until Berto can prove me wrong, I am sticking with Mosley by KO.

There is no denying the fact Shane has excellent power, and by not knocking out many of those guys since Forrest, alot can be said about there toughness and the quality of fighters he faced. And people mainly picking Mosley by KO are also attributing it to Berto's weak chin and lack of big time opponents.

So don't you be surprised when no scorecards are read that night.

[thehype]

I never said or implied Mayorga was a better boxer than Forrest, but he did WIN the rematch fair and square. And I always hated him then, and wanted Forrest to decapitate him.
My point about Mayorga is that he is a difficult guy to fight. He is awkward, tough, and hits extremely hard. I thought Shane felt his power early on, and was a little hesitant in there. Plus like Shane has already stated, it got stale with his Dad. So I am sure he was not at his best against Mayorga too. Just like his fights against Cruz and Estrada, surely he was not at peak form for those type of guys. Ever see Mayweather-Burton? Think Floyd was at his best for that fight?

I don't know if I would compare the "awkwardness" of Burton to the "awkwardness" of Mayorga. Do I think Floyd was at his best for that fight? Maybe, maybe not...but I do think a 23-year-old Floyd Mayweather was much closer to his prime when he fought Burton than a 37-year-old Shane Mosley was when he fought Mayorga. I mean, of course Shane is going to blame his dad for the way he looked...I mean, do you really expect him to blame himself, or his strategy, or the lack of the Cream and the Clear?

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I actually thought Mayorga looked LESS awkward against Mosley than he normally looked...he appeared to be doing a much better job of sticking to the gameplan and focusing on keeping his jab in Shane's face. Was he awkward at times? Absolutley, but he was a lot less awkward when he fought De La Hoya...and yet, somehow, De La Hoya was able to ICE him A LOT easier than Shane was. Hmmmm. Interesting.

Well I consider it a different level if you IMPROVE on your game regardless. Sure it was just one fight, but there is no denying he was on another level that night. No one came remotely close to doing what Shane did to AM. To me and many others, it just seemed that was a different Mosley in there that night. Mosley is going to be a year older from that fight, so I am curious to see if he has another performance like that in him. I like the way Shane talks and acts recently, he makes me believe in him. So until Berto can prove me wrong, I am sticking with Mosley by KO.

Again, I'm not saying that Brother Naaz didn't help his performance...but I AM saying that while you think the "different" Mosley was the reason he looked so good, I think it had more to do with the fact that it was a MUCH MORE "different" Margarito in there with him...you know...the one who wasn't allowed to cheat. So I can't really judge how much Shane has IMPROVED given the fact that he pretty much looked like the same fighter that we've been watching. I mean, Shane didn't look any different to me at all in there. He still squints his eyes and bites down on his lip when he throws those bombs...he still flicks his jab out there....basically, he still looked like the same fighter. One thing I can say, without a doubt though, is that Margarito was DEFINITELY a different fighter without his wraps. He never looked confident at all in there (probably because he knew what was going down with the raps) and he just wasn't as throwing as many punches as he normally does. Normally I would attribute that to his opponent being crafty and elusive, but Shane was right in front of him all night. The difference is that instead of being confused and not having a good strategy, Shane knew exactly what the gameplan was and the times when he did start to stray from it, Brother Naaz put him in check and got him back on track. So was Shane on a whole other level? Pffff. I guess if you want to call it that, but in my opinion, he's still on the same level he's always been on...he just has a good strategist in his corner now. Regard.less of the way Shane talks and acts recently, he still looks like the same fighter to me. Can Brother Naaz come up with the right strategy to defeat Berto? Absolutely, but is Shane going to prevent Berto from running and clinching so he can implement that stategy...man...I'm not so sure...not after seeing how easily he let Cotto off the hook. Margarito wasn't trying to run and clinch at all....Berto, on the other hand, will do exactly that

There is no denying the fact Shane has excellent power, and by not knocking out many of those guys since Forrest, alot can be said about there toughness and the quality of fighters he faced. And people mainly picking Mosley by KO are also attributing it to Berto's weak chin and lack of big time opponents.

So don't you be surprised when no scorecards are read that night.

LOL. The funny thing is that the toughness and quality of fighter that you want to give Shane credit for are the same fighters that Berto has faced....Collazo, David Estrada...I mean, I don't know...maybe there is some denying Shane's "excellent power". I would never deny the quality of his chin, but I mean, he was landing some bombs on Cotto and never really did the same type of damage that Manny Pacquiao just did to Miguel. He was landing some bombs on Mayorga too and never got him out of there until the final seconds of the fight, despite Oscar and Tito cracking that chin early in their fights. Of course, I guess we can attribute that with the fact that Shane was never really able to land that powerful of a punch on Mayorga until the final seconds of the round due to his "awkwardness", but even still, to me, that sounds like a problem and so long as Berto is allowed to run and hold, the chances of Shane landing that big punch are slim. Berto isn't going to be standing right in front of him like Margarito, Vargas and Mayorga were doing. If Cotto, Collazo, David Estrada (who Berto stopped) and Jose Luis Cruz, can survive and go the distance with Shane, I think Berto has an excellent shot of doing the same.

If no scorecards are read, I'll be EXTREMELY surprised, but PLEASANTLY happy since, after all, I am a member of the Berto Hate Bus.

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Again, don't get me wrong....I'm pulling for Shane BIG TIME...but I have a bad feeling that we're about to Hopkins vs. Taylor all over again...not the fight itself, but the outcome.

[The Ollie Reed F...]

Nice analysis Hype.

I'll tell you one thing you missed and that was that lovely body shot Shane threw in the first round to Margs. I mean I had seen Cotto hit him previously with some absolute BOMBS and nothing happened. As soon as I saw him double over from that body shot I knew we were in for a special night. But I was very very shocked when I saw that. I didn't think much of Margs as a fighter but I must admit i didn't think anyone at 147 could seriously hurt him either, least of all in the first minute of the fight.

[Keith]

For everyone who keeps talking about Berto not being able to take his punches....I mean....I really hope you guys are right. I like Shane and all, but the only guys he's stopped or "destroyed" in the past 8 years are Antonio Margarito, Ricardo Mayorga and Fernando Vargas. Think about that for a second. Since losing to Venon Forrest, he's fought 10 different opponents and only stopped 3 of them...1 (Mayorga) in the final seconds of the bout and the other (Vargas) was wrecked before he stepped into the ring. Call me crazy, but I think Berto has an excellent chance of being one of the other 7 guys and going the distance with Shane...and if it goes the distance, don't be surprised to hear those scorecards.

How many of them were at 147? I think your looking back too far. I'm only looking at Collazo on.... and in those fights it appears to me that welters arent exactly estatic abut trading with Shane Mosley. He knocked Collozo down (awkward as it looked) and won a clear decision, banged around with Cotto and had him retreating despite the loss, and ko'd the seemingly indestructible Margarito.

Who bangs harder then Mosley at 147?

[King Eugene]

Roll Deep, you pretty much aren't very aware of Sugar Ray Robinson. The modern perception of Ray Robinson during his time was VERY akin to how a lot of people feel about Floyd. Black America loved him, White America, 'ahhh, He wasn't totally revered and as far as negotiations. He was an extremely hard negotiator lets say.

Source Thomas Hauser Article
http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-h...sited--part-two

Also I've read about three books about Ray Robinson one he authored himsel where he admits he wasn't taking any backseat in negotiations.

Good for him and Floyd and how dare ANY of you say the HELL with MONEY. You're not taking the blows here.

There is actually a 20th Century Sports video on google that goes over Robinson's career and it goes to tell how extremely difficult he was to negotiate with.

[MarzB]

sorry homie dont cut my head off... lol...

Nothing like that. We're cool..

[King Eugene]

Really? Since when do you take what Leonard Ellerbe says as gospel?

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Here's the key...he didn't say WHEN they would fight either one of those guys.

And besides....Mosley ain't beating Berto. Mark my words. The only way Shane wins is if Berto is if he puts Berto to sleep. Otherwise, expect an ugly affair that sees Berto hugging and running all 12 rounds en route to a CONTROVERSIAL decision (much like Taylor vs. Hopkins) that will force a rematch.

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Sorry but I dont know either you, your sources, or Ellerbe personally so from the outside looking in I tend to believe the people actually dealing with the situation instead of a "he told me they said" story. Nothing against you or your people but thats just me.

I'm picking Berto but rooting for Shane in that fight as well.

This post has been edited by King Eugene: Nov 20 2009, 11:51 PM