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> Board Seminar Question #2, The best answer(s) will go up on FightHype.com...
King Eugene
post Apr 6 2010, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (Sweetness @ Apr 6 2010, 05:13 PM) *
Jeff Lacy's a good one. He was climbing pretty high on a lot of guy's lists in 04-05 off a string of banging out a bunch of over the hill B and C level guys - who for the most part (everyone really except Scott Pemberton) were all giving him tough fights, particularly Vanderpool and Shieka. But Lacy was exciting and getting those KO's so we tended to overlook his struggles. Plus he had a great attitude that everyone pretty much loved. He was willing to fight anyone, anywhere and he had a physique like Mike Tyson to boot. Lacy was a considerable favorite when he went to England to take on the undefeated hometown cocksucker Calzaghe, and the beating he took was absolutely epic. In hindsight his career was over by the 2nd round. His soul was eviscerated. It was sad to see. His subsequent comeback fights were each less impressive than the last. He got lucky to earn a win (or was it a draw, I can't remember) against Epifanio Mendoza a clubbing journeyman he admitted after the fight he had to resort to football tackling to survive against. Then he got beat down by Jermain Taylor, becoming the only guy Taylor managed to beat impressively in 5 years. Then he got crushed and stopped by the shottest of the shot, and we all musta forgot for one fight how ruined Roy Jones was himself, since many were giving him a chance against Calzaghe based off that performance. Lacy is an American Olympian and a fairly big name and a guy most can't help but root for. The truth however is his career success was primarily the resilt of his being managed very nicely early on and nothing more. He was never somebody capable of beating a good fighter.

His lack of defense and non-improvement over the years pretty much ruined him.
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D-MARV
post Apr 6 2010, 05:59 PM
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The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Let's look over Manny's resume.

Manny had two life and death wars with Juan Manuel Marquez (whom I and many others think got the best of Manny in both fights). Now Marquez is a great fighter but he's no where near an all time fighter and he gave Manny boxing lessons in both fights.

Let's move on to Eric Morales. A faded Eric Morales (after grueling wars with Barrera) was also able to take Pac-Man to school in their first bout. Although Manny was competitive, I thought Eric controlled the fight from start to end. Eric kept Manny at bay with his jab and and brutally countered Manny at will. Manny had his moments in the fight but it was a thorough ass whooping handed out by "El Terrible". Sure Manny beat Morales the second time around but only after Raheem literally OWNED Morales. Not to mention sucking down every last ounce of weight that Morales had left. I remember Morales looking like Ghandi at the Weigh in.

One of Manny's best wins came against Marco Antonio Barrera. Manny beat down the "FADED" legend in 2003 but let's face it... Marco already had 2 wars with Morales under his belt and had seen his best days.

In between his fights with faded legends, Manny fought average competition... He took on the likes of Larios (old and worn), Battery (who?), Velazquez (old and worn), and Solis (very green and outmatched).

The so-called "Legendary" run started with David Diaz. Diaz was a very average fighter who was coming off two NARROW wins over the completely shot and fat Eric Morales and Ramon Montano (I had to boxrec this guy). It was Manny's first fight at the higher weight so I gave him a pass... But Hardly the stuff of Legends. A True Legend and All Time Great would have went after the number 1 man in the division (Like Hopkins Vs Tarver or Leonard Vs Hagler).

Manny received his biggest pay day in fighting Skeletor... I mean De La Hoya. Oscar shrunk down to 145 and only gained two pounds by fight time. I guess the I.V marks on his arm were Manny's motivation. Then there was Ricky Hatton... The same Ricky Hatton that was considered Overrated and a bum the minute he signed to fight Floyd Mayweather. Manny feasted on Floyd's leftovers and got 4 times the credit that Floyd received (hmmmm). Now there's Miguel Cotto. NOW THERE"S A QUALITY WIN... Except for two things... 1 being, hmmmm, YOU GUESSED IT! HE WAS WEIGHT DRAINED! 2 being that he was beaten within an inch of his life a few fights before hand. Good win for Manny, but the stuff of Legends? I'm not to sure about that one. Now there's the EVER So DANGEROUS Joshua "The Mighty" Clottey! LOL.... can you say SET UP!!!!! Josh was paid to stand in the ring and let Manny pound away at his gloves. Hey Josh.... We'll give you some extra change and you'll get MAJOR props by NOT getting KO'd by Manny Pacquaio.


Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shiftyeyes_anim.gif)

This post has been edited by D-MARV: Apr 6 2010, 06:00 PM
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Jack 1000
post Apr 6 2010, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (alaganza @ Apr 6 2010, 04:58 PM) *
Good point


Cosign!

It's a shame, because Jones probably had the best athletic ability and since Leonard. But he fought too many soft touches to be considered a great fighter, or either fighters who were too old, or fighters whom he made sure did not pose a threat to him.

My Current Choice For The Most Over-Rated Fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr.

The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.

The last fighter that fought Floyd in his natural weight class was Castillo. Floyd is very fortunate that he is able to get these mega bucks paydays while fighting smaller fighters.

Jack
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thehype
post Apr 7 2010, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 6 2010, 07:06 PM) *
Cosign!

It's a shame, because Jones probably had the best athletic ability and since Leonard. But he fought too many soft touches to be considered a great fighter, or either fighters who were too old, or fighters whom he made sure did not pose a threat to him.

My Current Choice For The Most Over-Rated Fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr.

The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.

The last fighter that fought Floyd in his natural weight class was Castillo. Floyd is very fortunate that he is able to get these mega bucks paydays while fighting smaller fighters.

Jack


I might seriously have to consider revoking your admin rights for this post.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I mean...seriously Jack...your "criticism" is only fueled by your hatred of the personality he puts on display, because honestly, that sounded like it came from a Pactard.

Just look at some of these statements:

QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 6 2010, 07:06 PM) *
The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.



Are you sure you're talking about Floyd? Sounds more like you're talking about Oscar De La Hoya or the Klitschkos or even Bernard Hopkins. Shit, what fighter DOESN'T look for the most money and the least risk? Do you think Vitali Klitschko's selection of Sosnowski is a LEAST MONEY-HIGH RISK fight? Was Jones really a HIGH RISK fight for Hopkins? Hell, was Ornelas for that matter? Even Manny Pacquiao...do you REALLY believe that he decided to pass on Yuri Foreman and an uprecedented 8TH WORLD TITLE IN 8 DIVISIONS simply because he felt Joshua Clottey was the HIGH RISK? LOL. Man, I thought you understood the sport better than that. I mean, come on, Floyd moved up to 154 to fight De La Hoya...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk. Floyd fought the undefeated Ricky Hatton...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk (if it was a risk for Pacquiao, it should be a risk for Floyd too). Hell, 3-4 years ago, you and a lot of people were talking about how Floyd isn't a natural welterweight...he's too small...blah, blah, blah...now all of a sudden he's a guy fighting boxers who are "one-two divisions smaller than he is"? Man, cut it out! That's not Floyd Mayweather. He fought one guy...ONE GUY...Marquez, in a freakin' tune-up after a 16-month layoff. That's the ONLY guy that he's fought smaller than him. And don't even try to cry about Ricky Fatton's ass either...YOU guys wanted the fight and there were no complaints at all when Hatton moved up to fight him. Come to think of it, Floyd was the one moving up in weight before it got so popular. He moved up to 135 and fought Castillo...a HIGH RISK fight. In fact, he MOVED UP to 140 AND 147...so why you think he's been fighting all of these guys that are smaller than him is totally beyond me. I assume that's the hatred of his personality slipping out of you because if you're just looking at the facts, that's simply not true. Like I said, the ONLY guy you can point to is Marquez, but man, that fight was no different than Hopkins handpicking Ornelas for a tune-up, so the cut the man some slack. Now he's fighting Mosley, which I'm sure a lot of you probably agree is a HIGH RISK fight...so how are you going to PRAISE Bernard Hopkins for fighting a tune-up in Ornelas and then a shot fighter in Jones, but shit on Floyd for coming back after a 16-month layoff to tune-up against a top 3 P4P fighter and then take on the man at welterweight? I mean, SERIOULSY??? Man...Jack...say it ain't so.

"just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities."

Whaaaaaat?????

Man...now it's become CLEAR to me that you're DEFINITELY talking about Bernard Hopkins. I mean, after all, when he's got Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe and Kelly Pavlik, it's pretty obvious that HE'S the one "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I hate to slap around one of my favorite admins, but damn...the pimp hand had to come out strong on that one.

SHHHHHHHMACK!

You speaketh blasphemy!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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STEVENSKI
post Apr 7 2010, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Floyd fought the undefeated Ricky Hatton...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk (if it was a risk for Pacquiao, it should be a risk for Floyd too).


A undefeated Ricky Hatton who had previously shown he had NO business at 147 whatsoever. Unless you think the 147lb Hatton was the best version of Hatton that is.......


QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Floyd was the one moving up in weight before it got so popular. He moved up to 135 and fought Castillo...a HIGH RISK fight. In fact, he MOVED UP to 140 AND 147...


I will give credit for his gifts against Castillo. Who did he fight at 140 that was any risk whatsoever? Who did he fight at 147 that was any risk? No one.

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salvador
post Apr 7 2010, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 6 2010, 05:59 PM) *
The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shiftyeyes_anim.gif)


IF Pac is clean then what he's done already makes him as accomplished as any fighter around today including Floyd/Roy/Bernard - anyone. He fights EVERYONE and he's always willing to stick his chin out for the ko. I still think Floyd takes him, but Floyd has never taken the risks to be considered an ATG, Floyd's just a really really really great athlete.

I've said before that it's virtually impossible for me to believe he could move up from 106 to 147 and walk through those shots from Cotto unless he's on something. But I obviously have no proof, and if he's clean then he deserves consideration on any ATG list - he at least deserves to be a part of the debate.

Ricky Hatton, on the other hand, sucks from every angle and his only claim to fame was a consequence of his being allowed to outwrestle Tszyu. If Hatton was any other color other than white nobody would have ever heard of him.
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ROLL DEEP
post Apr 7 2010, 08:19 AM
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Man, what's with the Jones hate?!


People either think he could've beaten Ali, Holmes, Lewis and Holyfield on the same night or think he's the worst champion of all time.


Pffffft.



As a Hopkins fan, you can't bash Jones' resume without being a little hypocritical. They both fought rubbish mandatories and somehow manage to miss big fights when they should've happened.


Jones is ONE OF THE BEST EVER. Point blank. Not THE best, but up there in the mix.




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STEVENSKI
post Apr 7 2010, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Man, what's with the Jones hate?!


People either think he could've beaten Ali, Holmes, Lewis and Holyfield on the same night or think he's the worst champion of all time.


Pffffft.



As a Hopkins fan, you can't bash Jones' resume without being a little hypocritical. They both fought rubbish mandatories and somehow manage to miss big fights when they should've happened.


Jones is ONE OF THE BEST EVER. Point blank. Not THE best, but up there in the mix.


You know damm well whats up Mr Deep with the Jones hate. Jones did unbelievable things in the ring & would have been a lot better had he learnt the fundamentals of the craft to fall back on when his natural assets started to fail. He didn't & therefore provided me with great enjoyment by being knocked out a few times.
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Apr 7 2010, 09:05 AM
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[quote name='D-MARV' date='Apr 6 2010, 06:59 PM' post='479823']
The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Let's look over Manny's resume.

Manny had two life and death wars with Juan Manuel Marquez (whom I and many others think got the best of Manny in both fights). Now Marquez is a great fighter but he's no where near an all time fighter and he gave Manny boxing lessons in both fights.

Let's move on to Eric Morales. A faded Eric Morales (after grueling wars with Barrera) was also able to take Pac-Man to school in their first bout. Although Manny was competitive, I thought Eric controlled the fight from start to end. Eric kept Manny at bay with his jab and and brutally countered Manny at will. Manny had his moments in the fight but it was a thorough ass whooping handed out by "El Terrible". Sure Manny beat Morales the second time around but only after Raheem literally OWNED Morales. Not to mention sucking down every last ounce of weight that Morales had left. I remember Morales looking like Ghandi at the Weigh in.

One of Manny's best wins came against Marco Antonio Barrera. Manny beat down the "FADED" legend in 2003 but let's face it... Marco already had 2 wars with Morales under his belt and had seen his best days.

In between his fights with faded legends, Manny fought average competition... He took on the likes of Larios (old and worn), Battery (who?), Velazquez (old and worn), and Solis (very green and outmatched).

The so-called "Legendary" run started with David Diaz. Diaz was a very average fighter who was coming off two NARROW wins over the completely shot and fat Eric Morales and Ramon Montano (I had to boxrec this guy). It was Manny's first fight at the higher weight so I gave him a pass... But Hardly the stuff of Legends. A True Legend and All Time Great would have went after the number 1 man in the division (Like Hopkins Vs Tarver or Leonard Vs Hagler).

Manny received his biggest pay day in fighting Skeletor... I mean De La Hoya. Oscar shrunk down to 145 and only gained two pounds by fight time. I guess the I.V marks on his arm were Manny's motivation. Then there was Ricky Hatton... The same Ricky Hatton that was considered Overrated and a bum the minute he signed to fight Floyd Mayweather. Manny feasted on Floyd's leftovers and got 4 times the credit that Floyd received (hmmmm). Now there's Miguel Cotto. NOW THERE"S A QUALITY WIN... Except for two things... 1 being, hmmmm, YOU GUESSED IT! HE WAS WEIGHT DRAINED! 2 being that he was beaten within an inch of his life a few fights before hand. Good win for Manny, but the stuff of Legends? I'm not to sure about that one. Now there's the EVER So DANGEROUS Joshua "The Mighty" Clottey! LOL.... can you say SET UP!!!!! Josh was paid to stand in the ring and let Manny pound away at his gloves. Hey Josh.... We'll give you some extra change and you'll get MAJOR props by NOT getting KO'd by Manny Pacquaio.


Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shiftyeyes_anim.gif)

/quote]

First off who are these people that rank Manny GOAT? Sure many feel that Manny is a first ballot hall of famer but beyond that, I don't think MOST fans, press etc are saying he is anything else, so get off that partiular horse.

Onto the fights:

If the scoring had been done CORRECTLY then Manny would've won the first JMM fight.

How do we know that it was a faded Eric Morales in the first fight? Boxer's can literally change overnight. The Morales that fought Pac in that first fight was hardly faded. And FFS Raheem didn't 'own' Morales. Ss for the last weigh in, go and check, MOST of Morales'weigh-ins. He ALWAYS looks like Ghandi.

Most didn't consider Barrerra faded in their first fight, in fact he was heavy favourite to win.

OK say Manny takes some easy wins. Then figts De La Hoya at 147 when he had never fought above 135. So DLH doesn't have the best camp (coz he didn't have Senior there with him) and ends up needling himself. 2 things. Why is this Manny's problem? And how could Manny know that he would end up in that state?

As for Cotto, he came in weight drained? He came in under ONE pound than he had for the fight with Clottey. Yeah sure so much had been taken out of him in training blah blah blah.

Oh and as for Ricky Hatton, he faced him in a division where Hatton is most comfortable and never ben beaten, 140 pounds. Yeah 2 round destruction of a guy unbeaten in that weight class. cool.

Yeah hard to see how he gets OVERRATED.



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lloyd mayflower
post Apr 7 2010, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Apr 7 2010, 02:05 PM) *
Yeah hard to see how he gets OVERRATED.


I sort of agree with most of you and sort of dont. That 1 pound for Cotto could have made a huge difference, as was stated before the fight by the guys here who fight and understand about having to suck down weight. (I dont so I bowed to their knowledge)

I kinda agree with you about Manny not being overrated. But only amongst decent fans. You must surely agree that Manny is GROSSLY overrated by the casual fan. Some of the shit iv heard talked by people I know who take an occasional interest in the big fights has been fuckin ridiculous, and unfortunately, these are the people that a lot of the press pander to because they are the majority. I'v heard it stated that theres no way in hell Floyd will beat Manny. That sort of shit is perpetuated by people buying into misinformed hype and in Britain at least, boxing getting so few column inches that the writers report only the easy, obvious stuff.
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