[STEVENSKI]

Look at Keith trying to stand out from the crowd...lol...Mr. "I don't want to get lost in the shuffle".

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Big time browntonguer. I am disowning him.

[pcraw]

Because his BS charade as a HW is getting close to a decade and by the front page of this very website every other day, which seems to show that there is no end in sight....I'm going to say James Toney!

NOW...I am in no way going to say that James Toney as a whole is overrated, we all are very aware of his accomplishments in the lighter divisions. My questioning of JT's greatness is with his career as a heavyweight.

People in the boxing community and on this site attempt to give James Toney credit as being the sole fighter than can take out the Klits and unify the HW titles......BASED ON WHAT?

This is a CLEAR case of people being blinded by a fighters former luster. Any rational person that has watched James as a HW should not be impressed....and for sure should not see him as the potential to end the dredful rule of the Twin Champs.

YET....James Toney is consistantly mentioned as the fighter to beat one or both Klits as well as Haye.

When people come to this notion....I think they are seeing fond memories of the dramatic one punch KO of Prince Charles Williams in the 12th round.....YET...they are totally forgetting much of what we have all actually seen at HW.

Here is a rundown of JT's HW career.

It started off GREAT....with a beautiful TKO of a well past his prime...yet still very able Evander Holyfield. I have to admit, this fight had me believing as well....never had I seen such a profound body attack...nor had Evander...things looked good.

Then it all went downhill.

He won a BORING UD over the little known Ridell Booker.

Recieved a UD win over the often sited WORST Champ in Ruiz, but due to steroids being found in his blood stream this fight was changed to a NC and Toney was stripped of his HW title. No matter if you think we could have won with or without drugs is not the issue. The man tested positive and was stripped and the W was taken away.

Then came the BORING UD win over the lackluster Dominick Guinn

Then came the draw with Rahman with their second fight earning JT yet another NC.

Between those fights were the two back to back losses to Sam Peter, a decent but far from spectacular HW fighter himself.

He then gets a BORING UD against Danny Bachelder, a guy that was beaten by Lance Whitiker, Lamon Brewster and a thrid guy since that fight. Bacheldor is 3-7 in last 10 fights including the Toney loss.

He then gets a controversial win over Fres Oquendo, which many believed he actually lost.

He then polishes this turd of a career even more...with FINALLY a KO win over Matthew Greer...a guy that has lost his last 3 fights, including a loss to Minto and Kevin Johnson.

So in retrospect....as a HW...James Toney's carrer record looks like this.

6-2-1-2 with 2 of those wins by KO.

If people want to believe that record is worthy of praising this guy and listing him as the last hope to rid the division of the Klits.....more power to them....but I myself can see past all of the mouthing and BS for what it is....a desparate attempt to milk $$ from a career LONG over.

In a prior thread I stated this and I'm quite proud to type it yet again. If this keeps up the one single thing that will be worthy of being at the Boxing HOF long after Toney passes will be his vocal chords. Put 'em in a big ole glass with formaldehyde and let people take it all in.

If JT's fists flew as fast as his mouth has the last 7 years.....he would be a legend in the HW division.

First and foremost people on this website don't think Toney is the sole fighter to take the Klitschko's out, but is the sole fighter (and I actually put David Tua in there) that won't eat one Klitschko right hand and shut the fuck down. I mean what the hell did Eddie Chambers prove against Klitshcko, what did Arreola prove..how about QueenPin? The only thing they proved is that this new set of American heavyweights are straight up bitches; no other way to sugar coat it. I've seen Toney come in terrible shape and still fight a hard 12 to where these guys claim to be in the best shape mentally and physically and then check out of the fight with the first hard punch thrown. Hell Klitschko's could batter Toney around for 12 rounds all I care, but you obviously have more faith in them beating Toney than they do. I would much rather James Toney name on my resume than fucking Albert Sosnowski.

The only guy of note that Johnson had beaten to get a shot was a 50 year old Bruce Seldon. Johnson was a terrible ESPN fighter, but he gets a pass for whatever reason according to your argument. Chris Arreola's claim to a heavyweight tile shot was a huge win over Jameel McCline; hell Travis fucking Walker almost knocked Arreola out. So why are we talking about heavyweights earning shots? I would prefer to see Toney in these fights just to stir up the division. All of these fucking nice guys is more aggravating than Toney talking shit. Since we're putting records out here Ruiz was 3-3 in his last 6 going into the Haye fight with his biggest win coming over who??? You guessed it...Jameel McCline. Damn does Jameel get a cut of these guys purse for being the guy to beat to get a title shot? Hmmmm.

You say, don't count Toney's win to Ruiz because it was taken away, fair enough, but why are we saying, "Most people thought Oquendo won?" Hey Toney got the W so don't count that fight. 6-2-1-2 for a former middleweight fighting at heavyweight and no one has stopped him ain't bad opposed to what he's up against. Hell if you don't want to see Toney fight the Klitscho's for a title you gotta at least think guy's like Arreola, Chambers and QueenPin should have to go through him to get a title shot.

As to the question posed I would say Zab Judah or Sam Peter. I'm so sick of hearing, "If Zab gets his shit together he would blah blah blah..." I say Peter because I thought so many Americans hung their hat on him being the last hope and he did the unthinkable. He quit on the stool. For me that is a no no and he has never been in the light again. He's been on a crusade to wreck journeymen since the Klitschko loss; with the exception of Chambers.

This post has been edited by pcraw: Apr 7 2010, 06:44 PM

[Method]

Im w PCraw, I would MUCH rather see Toney, win or lose, get a shot at the Klits as opposed to those other motherfucking losers that the Klits seem to pull out of pubs.

[The CEO]

Lots of good AND unexpected responses, guys...thank you.

I don't know what to do...I might have to make this a Special 3 Edition question, posting 2 per piece...

All I ask is that some of you trim your answers down a bit...some are too lengthy for a column like mine....just go back and edit them if you would/can please...

Deadline will be tomorrow night...I will try to submit something to Hype by the end of the weekend to be shown on Monday....


@Keith...I would rather you post it in this thread this time...

[thehype]

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....

A undefeated Ricky Hatton who had previously shown he had NO business at 147 whatsoever. Unless you think the 147lb Hatton was the best version of Hatton that is.......

I think the 147lb. Hatton was pretty much the same as the 140lb. Hatton. He didn't struggle with Collazo because of the weight...he struggled with Collazo because Hatton just isn't that great to begin with...never has been! HOWEVER, that being said, it's the fight that EVERYONE wanted...well just about everyone anyway. Personally, I figured it would be EASY WORK for Floyd and I really could've cared less if he fought him....but people like YOU, maybe not you in particular, but people similar to you were claiming that Floyd ducked him at 140, so ask and ye shall receive. Now, do I thnk it was great "challenge" for Floyd? No...I don't...but if someone is going to point to how good Manny Pacquiao is and talk about his destruction of Ricky Hatton as an example, then how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first? But regardless, the point is, don't make it sound like Ricky Hatton was some super featherweight that Floyd handpicked. It's a fight that the public DEMANDED, as evidence by the 1.5 million PPV buys, so it's a fight that they got! That whole post was addressing Jack's comments about Floyd having this reputation of fighting smaller fighters and that's simply not the case.

I will give credit for his gifts against Castillo. Who did he fight at 140 that was any risk whatsoever? Who did he fight at 147 that was any risk? No one.

Who was at 140 that was any risk to begin with? Let's take a look. Gatti was the WBC champ. Vivian Harris was the WBA champ. Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champ. Cotto was the WBO champ.

Kostya Tszyu was with Showtime, so that fight was difficult to make to begin with. Please don't forget that up until that point, Floyd had yet to even headline a PPV, and as far as I know, the only fight that HBO and Showtime did a collaboration on was Tyson vs. Lewis...a HUGE PPV event...so don't make it sound like that was a case of Floyd "ducking" KT. Tszyu would later lose to little known Ricky Hatton, but even when Floyd asked to fight him, Ricky Hatton, his trainer, his dad and his entire team all said that they weren't ready to fight Floyd Mayweather. I'm sure you remember all that smack that Hatton was talking about coming to America to take over...he showed up to watch Mayweather vs. Gatti talking about wanting to fight the winner and then after the fight, all the talk stoped immediately and he ended up fighting Carlos "Golem" Maussa instead. Do your research!

Vivian Harris and his dumb ass was actually next in line to fight Floyd after the Gatti fight, which is why he was fighting Carlos Maussa on the undercard...and then he lost, so that fight went right out the window.

Miguel Cotto was NEVER an option as long as Floyd Mayweather was still a Top Rank fighter. Bob Arum would not allow the fight to happen...he said it time and time and TIME AGAIN. In fact...and I quote:

"I think it's too soon...Obviously in a year from now, whether it's at 147 or 140, that will be the Leonard-Duran fight of our generation. But it's not ready yet, we've got to build Cotto up more." - Bob Arum on a possible Mayweather vs. Cotto bout, June 29, 2005

Now that was in June of 2005...a few months later, Floyd moved up to 147, so how the hell was he supposed to fight Cotto if their mutual promoter is saying that Cotto isn't ready? And come to think of it, who the hell was Cotto fighting at 140 that was a risk? Kelson Pinto?

So who exactly did you want him to fight? Who was the big risk? Carlos Maussa?

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You can do the same research and discover the same information at 147. The whole reason why he moved up was to fight the undisputed welterweight champion at the time...Zab Judah. Prior to Judah choking against Baldomir, it was a fight that EVERYBODY was wanting to see. The only reason why he even bothered to fight Sharmba Mitchell was because it was his first fight at 147 and a tune-up for the much bigger fight against Judah (Mitchell being a southpaw like Judah). He fought Mitchell in November of 2005 and the fight with Zab was essentially a done deal (Zab was signing the damn contract for the fight while he was down in Florida training for Baldomir). 2 months later, in January of 2006, Zab's stupid ass lost to Baldomir. So you're telling me Floyd should have scrapped the Judah fight and fought a bigger "risk"...okay....but who? At the time, Margarito wasn't even an option because, again, Floyd was a Top Rank fighter and the fight that his own promoter, Bob Arum, chose to make was the Judah fight. Not Margarito, not Clottey, but Judah. It was only AFTER that fight, when Mayweather bought out his contract from Arum, did Margarito, Clottey AND Cotto even become an option, but at that point, Floyd was on some "FUCK YOU BOB ARUM" shit...and I can't say that I blame him. I'm not even sure why you would blame him either. If you're working at a restaurant and you quit because you can't stand your boss, you don't show up the next day to eat dinner there. That doesn't even make any sense. So Floyd stays busy with the Baldomir fight. He tried to make the Mosley fight, but Mosley didn't want it...preferring to go on vacation instead. So Floyd says fuck it and moves up to 154 to fight De La Hoya, but you're saying that wasn't a risk? I just don't understand what the hell you want the guy to do. I mean, I hear what you're saying...I want to see nothing but big fights too, but all the blame doesn't lie on Floyd Mayweather like you make it sound. He's was willing to fight Cotto...Arum wouldn't let him. He was willing to fight Hatton...Hatton wasn't ready. He tried to fight Mosley...Mosley wanted to go on vacation. He moved up to 154 and fought De La Hoya. Hell, then he even tried to make a fight with Winky Wright, and THAT could have been a done deal if Winky would have agreed to the same day weigh-in...but he refused to, so that fight fell apart...but of course, I'm sure you forgot about that and just blame Floyd by default. Oddly enough, if Winky was asked to do a same day weigh-in today for a fight with Floyd, he'd take it in a heartbeat!

Quite frankly, there were no risks at 140 other than Hatton and Cotto, which I already addressed. And at 147, the "risks" that you claim he avoided are laughable. I mean, really, how many people do you think were going to buy a Mayweather vs. Paul Williams bout...or a Mayweather vs. Clottey bout...or even a Mayweather vs. Margarito bout at the time. This was all PRE-DE LA HOYA and PRE-HATTON...those PPV events would have been LUCKY to do 200,000 buys...hell, his PPV with Judah only did like 350,000...and that was only because Judah was a halfway decent name at the time and they marketed the shit out of that fight to the Hip Hop community. Not to knock Margarito, but his biggest win was against Kermit Cintron...how the hell do you market THAT fight at the time. I mean, I guess you could argue that the Margarito fight would have done the same as the Baldomir fight...I guess...but man, it seems like that's really the only argument you can hang your hat on...that he fought Baldomir instead of Margarito. Okay...well...personally, in my opinion, Margarito was never really a big risk to begin with...basically the same type of fighter as Baldomir, so forgive me if I didn't view Margarito as the same type of "threat" that some other people saw him as. I mean, the dude's biggest win was against Kermit Fucking Cintron...that's not exactly something that strikes fear in my eyes. LOL.

But alas, I've wasted FAR too much time regurgitating shit that I've already told you time and time again. There's really just no point in having a discussion when one side admits that they have a profound hatred for the subject matter. LOL. But regardless, I was bored so I figured I'd throw it all out there again anyway.

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DO YOUR RESEARCH! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK FOR IT!

On a side note...

BOB ARUM ON FLOYD MAYWEATHER WHILE HE WAS STILL PROMOTING HIM...

"Floyd Mayweather is the best fighter in the world, I don't think there's any question about that. We're privileged to be promoting him and we're looking forward to doing a lot bigger and better things. Will Floyd and I have disagreements as we have in the past? Of course we will, we're the odd couple, but we'll work through them like we always have." - Bob Arum, October 31, 2005

"When he wants to be, the little son of a gun is an absolutely charming person. He was in my gym training over the weekend, all of the press was there and he couldn't have been more charming. I really mean that. He was sensational. If he can do that, then I think he can mature enough to be a big PPV star. And God knows he has the talent. I don't know any fighter around today that's as talented as this kid." - Bob Arum, May 17, 2005

"Well the great ones always rise to the occasion. I know Gatti is limited, let's be honest about it, but Floyd Mayweather is the best there is in boxing period. There is nobody that can contend with him for pound for pound best in the sport. Like I said before, it went from Ali to Sugar Ray Leonard to Pretty Boy Floyd. Some people today told me it goes back even further than that because this was a Sugar Ray Robinson type of performance." - Bob Arum, June 29, 2005

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Too funny. I don't even know how anyone can believe a word that comes out of Bob Arum's mouth regarding fighters that he does and does not promote. LOL.

[pcraw]

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....



I think the 147lb. Hatton was pretty much the same as the 140lb. Hatton. He didn't struggle with Collazo because of the weight...he struggled with Collazo because Hatton just isn't that great to begin with...never has been! HOWEVER, that being said, it's the fight that EVERYONE wanted...well just about everyone anyway. Personally, I figured it would be EASY WORK for Floyd and I really could've cared less if he fought him....but people like YOU, maybe not you in particular, but people similar to you were claiming that Floyd ducked him at 140, so ask and ye shall receive. Now, do I thnk it was great "challenge" for Floyd? No...I don't...but if someone is going to point to how good Manny Pacquiao is and talk about his destruction of Ricky Hatton as an example, then how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first? But regardless, the point is, don't make it sound like Ricky Hatton was some super featherweight that Floyd handpicked. It's a fight that the public DEMANDED, as evidence by the 1.5 million PPV buys, so it's a fight that they got! That whole post was addressing Jack's comments about Floyd having this reputation of fighting smaller fighters and that's simply not the case.



Who was at 140 that was any risk to begin with? Let's take a look. Gatti was the WBC champ. Vivian Harris was the WBA champ. Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champ. Cotto was the WBO champ.

Kostya Tszyu was with Showtime, so that fight was difficult to make to begin with. Please don't forget that up until that point, Floyd had yet to even headline a PPV, and as far as I know, the only fight that HBO and Showtime did a collaboration on was Tyson vs. Lewis...a HUGE PPV event...so don't make it sound like that was a case of Floyd "ducking" KT. Tszyu would later lose to little known Ricky Hatton, but even when Floyd asked to fight him, Ricky Hatton, his trainer, his dad and his entire team all said that they weren't ready to fight Floyd Mayweather. I'm sure you remember all that smack that Hatton was talking about coming to America to take over...he showed up to watch Mayweather vs. Gatti talking about wanting to fight the winner and then after the fight, all the talk stoped immediately and he ended up fighting Carlos "Golem" Maussa instead. Do your research!

Vivian Harris and his dumb ass was actually next in line to fight Floyd after the Gatti fight, which is why he was fighting Carlos Maussa on the undercard...and then he lost, so that fight went right out the window.

Miguel Cotto was NEVER an option as long as Floyd Mayweather was still a Top Rank fighter. Bob Arum would not allow the fight to happen...he said it time and time and TIME AGAIN. In fact...and I quote:

"I think it's too soon...Obviously in a year from now, whether it's at 147 or 140, that will be the Leonard-Duran fight of our generation. But it's not ready yet, we've got to build Cotto up more." - Bob Arum on a possible Mayweather vs. Cotto bout, June 29, 2005

Now that was in June of 2005...a few months later, Floyd moved up to 147, so how the hell was he supposed to fight Cotto if their mutual promoter is saying that Cotto isn't ready? And come to think of it, who the hell was Cotto fighting at 140 that was a risk? Kelson Pinto?

So who exactly did you want him to fight? Who was the big risk? Carlos Maussa?

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You can do the same research and discover the same information at 147. The whole reason why he moved up was to fight the undisputed welterweight champion at the time...Zab Judah. Prior to Judah choking against Baldomir, it was a fight that EVERYBODY was wanting to see. The only reason why he even bothered to fight Sharmba Mitchell was because it was his first fight at 147 and a tune-up for the much bigger fight against Judah (Mitchell being a southpaw like Judah). He fought Mitchell in November of 2005 and the fight with Zab was essentially a done deal (Zab was signing the damn contract for the fight while he was down in Florida training for Baldomir). 2 months later, in January of 2006, Zab's stupid ass lost to Baldomir. So you're telling me Floyd should have scrapped the Judah fight and fought a bigger "risk"...okay....but who? At the time, Margarito wasn't even an option because, again, Floyd was a Top Rank fighter and the fight that his own promoter, Bob Arum, chose to make was the Judah fight. Not Margarito, not Clottey, but Judah. It was only AFTER that fight, when Mayweather bought out his contract from Arum, did Margarito, Clottey AND Cotto even become an option, but at that point, Floyd was on some "FUCK YOU BOB ARUM" shit...and I can't say that I blame him. I'm not even sure why you would blame him either. If you're working at a restaurant and you quit because you can't stand your boss, you don't show up the next day to eat dinner there. That doesn't even make any sense. So Floyd stays busy with the Baldomir fight. He tried to make the Mosley fight, but Mosley didn't want it...preferring to go on vacation instead. So Floyd says fuck it and moves up to 154 to fight De La Hoya, but you're saying that wasn't a risk? I just don't understand what the hell you want the guy to do. I mean, I hear what you're saying...I want to see nothing but big fights too, but all the blame doesn't lie on Floyd Mayweather like you make it sound. He's was willing to fight Cotto...Arum wouldn't let him. He was willing to fight Hatton...Hatton wasn't ready. He tried to fight Mosley...Mosley wanted to go on vacation. He moved up to 154 and fought De La Hoya. Hell, then he even tried to make a fight with Winky Wright, and THAT could have been a done deal if Winky would have agreed to the same day weigh-in...but he refused to, so that fight fell apart...but of course, I'm sure you forgot about that and just blame Floyd by default. Oddly enough, if Winky was asked to do a same day weigh-in today for a fight with Floyd, he'd take it in a heartbeat!

Quite frankly, there were no risks at 140 other than Hatton and Cotto, which I already addressed. And at 147, the "risks" that you claim he avoided are laughable. I mean, really, how many people do you think were going to buy a Mayweather vs. Paul Williams bout...or a Mayweather vs. Clottey bout...or even a Mayweather vs. Margarito bout at the time. This was all PRE-DE LA HOYA and PRE-HATTON...those PPV events would have been LUCKY to do 200,000 buys...hell, his PPV with Judah only did like 350,000...and that was only because Judah was a halfway decent name at the time and they marketed the shit out of that fight to the Hip Hop community. Not to knock Margarito, but his biggest win was against Kermit Cintron...how the hell do you market THAT fight at the time. I mean, I guess you could argue that the Margarito fight would have done the same as the Baldomir fight...I guess...but man, it seems like that's really the only argument you can hang your hat on...that he fought Baldomir instead of Margarito. Okay...well...personally, in my opinion, Margarito was never really a big risk to begin with...basically the same type of fighter as Baldomir, so forgive me if I didn't view Margarito as the same type of "threat" that some other people saw him as. I mean, the dude's biggest win was against Kermit Fucking Cintron...that's not exactly something that strikes fear in my eyes. LOL.

But alas, I've wasted FAR too much time regurgitating shit that I've already told you time and time again. There's really just no point in having a discussion when one side admits that they have a profound hatred for the subject matter. LOL. But regardless, I was bored so I figured I'd throw it all out there again anyway.

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DO YOUR RESEARCH! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK FOR IT!

On a side note...



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Too funny. I don't even know how anyone can believe a word that comes out of Bob Arum's mouth regarding fighters that he does and does not promote. LOL.

Damn! Just damn!

[STEVENSKI]

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....

You are right it is silly to argue Floyd with me. No matter what hard facts you present they are null & void as my hate is stronger than truth.

how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first?

I can & do with alarming ease. Hatton is a bum. A bum that took Floyd 8 rounds longer to take out than Pac. Therefore Pac is 5 times better than Floyd. Do the maths Ben you know it to be true.


You make some good points Hype you really do. Agreeable, concise, factual but lost on a man driven by hate.

[Snoop]

So...don't fuck with hype? Basically?

[thehype]

You are right it is silly to argue Floyd with me. No matter what hard facts you present they are null & void as my hate is stronger than truth.


I can & do with alarming ease. Hatton is a bum. A bum that took Floyd 8 rounds longer to take out than Pac. Therefore Pac is 5 times better than Floyd. Do the maths Ben you know it to be true.


You make some good points Hype you really do. Agreeable, concise, factual but lost on a man driven by hate.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Ricky Hatton is a bum, but he stopped Castillo in 4 and Malignaggi in 11. Using your math, that would make him better than Diego Corrales and Miguel Cotto.

Hopkins never stopped Jermain Taylor, so I guess that makes Arthur Abraham and Carl Froch 5 times better than him too...or maybe it's just 3 times better than him...either way, do the math STEVENSKI...you know it to be true.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Yeeeeessss...the Hate is strong, but your powers are weak old man!

[STEVENSKI]

So...don't fuck with hype? Basically?

Well ben is actually very good about things in my experience. You can give him a bit of shit & certainly disagree with him. he is no despot like certain other site owners who referred to his members as monkeys.