IPB  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel 4-13-2010, Investigating the death of boxers
Snoop
post Apr 23 2010, 03:32 PM
Post #11


Heavyweight


Group: Members
Posts: 6,386
Joined: 19-December 03
From: Seattle
Member No.: 87



QUOTE (Imperius3 @ Apr 23 2010, 06:12 PM) *
Okay, so you acknowledge that the public beating happened though? This would make the witnesses credible, and it shows Gatti's state of mind at the time. Not only that, but if someone orders a hit, do you really think they would come to your hotel and then of all things hang you? I mean really, hang you? Imagine all the evidence they would leave behind to kill someone in such a complicated manner. They would most likely use a weapon like a gun, and they wouldn't arrive at the damn hotel. They would snipe you from a distance. And who was involved anyway? Who were the assassins? Surely someone would've squealed by now. Unless of course these were some high class powerful assassins that are all business-like who don't say a word and don't leave a shred of evidence behind. Yeah, I doubt Amanda has connections like that. And I imagine it would be kinda hard to hang Arturo Gatti up on a staircase too. There would be signs of a struggle, and there weren't any, only the injuries he sustained from the mob fight (which you acknowledged occurred).

If they did anything besides a hanging, then they couldn't put it off as a suicide, which is the entire reason why I think it's a cover up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thegreatequalize...
post Apr 23 2010, 05:19 PM
Post #12


Featherweight


Group: Members
Posts: 542
Joined: 29-January 05
Member No.: 1,603



it's not likely that gatti was hung at all. he was hit in the head with a blunt object and choked to death with the purse strap. since it's really hard to choke yourself (you pass out before you can finish) they make up the excuse that he hung himself. if he was really drunk like they said he was it's not likely he would be in the condition to hang himself. most suicides of that nature are usually done stone cold sober. if he was drunk and wanted to commit suicide it's much more likely he would have jumped or shot himself.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Snoop
post Apr 23 2010, 05:33 PM
Post #13


Heavyweight


Group: Members
Posts: 6,386
Joined: 19-December 03
From: Seattle
Member No.: 87



QUOTE (Thegreatequalizer @ Apr 23 2010, 11:19 PM) *
it's not likely that gatti was hung at all. he was hit in the head with a blunt object and choked to death with the purse strap. since it's really hard to choke yourself (you pass out before you can finish) they make up the excuse that he hung himself. if he was really drunk like they said he was it's not likely he would be in the condition to hang himself. most suicides of that nature are usually done stone cold sober. if he was drunk and wanted to commit suicide it's much more likely he would have jumped or shot himself.

For the me, the explanation of the cut on the back of the head being caused by a public stoning and reopening as he hit the ground makes sense for me. What doesn't make any sense is why he would want to commit suicide in the first place. I mean the cuts and bruises from the public dispute could still hold true had he been murdered. What I agree most with this post is that had Gatti really been drunk and emotional (which he has no history of), why he would go through such measures as to hang himself rather than a much easier and just as devastating method of suicide.

Again, the explanation is that Gatti was so drunk that suicide appeared rational to him, yet they conducted no alcohol test? And on top of that, gave no reason? Sure there's hearsay, but hearsay is hearsay. Facts are facts. Why didn't they collect them when the opportunity was there?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BGv2.0
post Apr 23 2010, 06:12 PM
Post #14


Cruiserweight


Group: Members
Posts: 5,057
Joined: 9-December 04
From: TX
Member No.: 1,304



Glad this topic was brought up.

NOBODY should be questioning Baden...the guy has decades of expertise in the area of post mordem studies. The LAPD has always hated him because he did not go in there and cover up for their TOTAL INEPT handling of that case.

The guy is about as level handed as one can get when it comes to questions related to post mortem situations/senerios.

That being said....some of the things he brings up is common sense. A BAC is common in any case that involves homicide....with this case being ruled a homicide at the outset...there is no valid excuse for that simple test not being conducted.

NOW....based on what I saw in the story.

First of all...the sheer amount of blood.....there is so damn much it's filling up the damn motar lines between the floor tiles....that's a LOT of blood for a supposed small non leathal head wound. If you look at the towel that they claim Gatti used to "dab" the blood on his head.....it would have been pure crimson if the same amount he lost on the floor was what he was dabbing at.

That shit totally does not wash.

Also....for the Detective to simply dismiss that the GF could not have gotten anybody to help her because that "had only been there for a short time and knew nobody" (something along those lines)....the jackoff must have forgotten that this was her HOMETOWN!

I don't know about most of you....but I have tons of contacts in my "hometown"...a few of which I've known for years and would help me do quite a bit of shifty shit...if I so chose to.....this girl is no different than the rest of us....

to act as if she could not possibly have any contacts in that town is simply BS.

I'm also curious as to if they actually tested any of the blood they found on the upstairs bedroom....they just sort of toss it out as fact that the blood on the bed was the whores...BUT...is that a FACT? Was that tested against both their blood to insure that as a fact?

Also...the legature marks on the neck absolutely do NOT match up with that purse strap....NOW...I do believe that the balistics test that showed the purse strap had been use don the stairs is legit....BUT...how hard would it be to kill the guy via choke with a rope...and THEN do a mock purse strap hanging post mortem to throw cops off? You just make sure you leave with the real noose and your off.

Also....as with any shifty motive....$$$$$

The guy signed her off for all his money 3 weeks prior....and she was a F'N STRIPPER before they met....is there any real question as to IF she had motive....

anybody who has dated a stripper KNOWS what I'm talking about!


IMHO....there are way too many question marks and way too much money at stake for this one to be an open and shut suicide.

And let's not forget this took place in Brazil.....a 3rd world country whose cops AND detectives are not above a nice fat payoff.

This post has been edited by BGv2.0: Apr 23 2010, 06:13 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Imperius3
post Apr 23 2010, 09:54 PM
Post #15


Welterweight


Group: Members
Posts: 1,982
Joined: 30-July 04
Member No.: 931



QUOTE (Snoop @ Apr 23 2010, 03:32 PM) *
If they did anything besides a hanging, then they couldn't put it off as a suicide, which is the entire reason why I think it's a cover up.


I don't know man, it seems too far-fetched to me. And Gatti does have a history of being drunk and emotional. Back in 1997, he was charged with drunk driving and assaulting a police officer. Gatti had been charged with eluding the police, resisting arrest, making terroristic threats and aggravated assault. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/10/sports/c...ml?pagewanted=1

QUOTE (Thegreatequalizer @ Apr 23 2010, 05:19 PM) *
it's not likely that gatti was hung at all. he was hit in the head with a blunt object and choked to death with the purse strap. since it's really hard to choke yourself (you pass out before you can finish) they make up the excuse that he hung himself. if he was really drunk like they said he was it's not likely he would be in the condition to hang himself. most suicides of that nature are usually done stone cold sober. if he was drunk and wanted to commit suicide it's much more likely he would have jumped or shot himself.


Gatti's death was definitely due to a hanging. This was determined by both autopsies. I remember reading they could tell based on the blood in the lower extremities.

QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 23 2010, 06:12 PM) *
Glad this topic was brought up.

NOBODY should be questioning Baden...the guy has decades of expertise in the area of post mordem studies. The LAPD has always hated him because he did not go in there and cover up for their TOTAL INEPT handling of that case.

The guy is about as level handed as one can get when it comes to questions related to post mortem situations/senerios.


What about the Phil Spector trial? Baden's wife was legal co-counsel for Spector at the time, and Baden was reportedly paid $250,000. Or the Crystallynn Girard case where Baden saved a New York DA from a multimillion lawsuit. http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about13691.html

QUOTE
That being said....some of the things he brings up is common sense. A BAC is common in any case that involves homicide....with this case being ruled a homicide at the outset...there is no valid excuse for that simple test not being conducted.


Agreed, even though it's been reported Gatti had seven cans of beer, along with two bottles of wine, over the course of dinner and partying at a bar. http://www.dailytidings.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...0310/-1/NEWSMAP

QUOTE
NOW....based on what I saw in the story.

First of all...the sheer amount of blood.....there is so damn much it's filling up the damn motar lines between the floor tiles....that's a LOT of blood for a supposed small non leathal head wound. If you look at the towel that they claim Gatti used to "dab" the blood on his head.....it would have been pure crimson if the same amount he lost on the floor was what he was dabbing at.

That shit totally does not wash.


Well, where do you think the blood came from? Gatti fell from over 7 feet from the ground. Obviously, he used the towel to dab at the wound before he fell from the staircase. Makes sense to me.

QUOTE
Also....for the Detective to simply dismiss that the GF could not have gotten anybody to help her because that "had only been there for a short time and knew nobody" (something along those lines)....the jackoff must have forgotten that this was her HOMETOWN!

I don't know about most of you....but I have tons of contacts in my "hometown"...a few of which I've known for years and would help me do quite a bit of shifty shit...if I so chose to.....this girl is no different than the rest of us....

to act as if she could not possibly have any contacts in that town is simply BS.

I'm also curious as to if they actually tested any of the blood they found on the upstairs bedroom....they just sort of toss it out as fact that the blood on the bed was the whores...BUT...is that a FACT? Was that tested against both their blood to insure that as a fact?

Also...the legature marks on the neck absolutely do NOT match up with that purse strap....NOW...I do believe that the balistics test that showed the purse strap had been use don the stairs is legit....BUT...how hard would it be to kill the guy via choke with a rope...and THEN do a mock purse strap hanging post mortem to throw cops off? You just make sure you leave with the real noose and your off.

Also....as with any shifty motive....$$$$$

The guy signed her off for all his money 3 weeks prior....and she was a F'N STRIPPER before they met....is there any real question as to IF she had motive....

anybody who has dated a stripper KNOWS what I'm talking about!


IMHO....there are way too many question marks and way too much money at stake for this one to be an open and shut suicide.

And let's not forget this took place in Brazil.....a 3rd world country whose cops AND detectives are not above a nice fat payoff.


I personally don't have any friends that could pull a murder like this off and not leave a trace of evidence. And saying that the Brazilian authorities are corrupt isn't really proof of anything. Do you know these cops personally?

Once again, BOTH autopsies proved that Gatti's death was due to a hanging, not a choking. It was proven that he died from his body being suspended in the air by the neck. The forensics proved that the purse strap was used on the stair column.

I was a fan of Gatti too. But these incredible theories just aren't realistic.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Snoop
post Apr 24 2010, 09:32 AM
Post #16


Heavyweight


Group: Members
Posts: 6,386
Joined: 19-December 03
From: Seattle
Member No.: 87



QUOTE (Imperius3 @ Apr 24 2010, 02:54 AM) *
I don't know man, it seems too far-fetched to me. And Gatti does have a history of being drunk and emotional. Back in 1997, he was charged with drunk driving and assaulting a police officer. Gatti had been charged with eluding the police, resisting arrest, making terroristic threats and aggravated assault. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/10/sports/c...ml?pagewanted=1

And NONE of those are warning signs of a suicidal person. Those are warning signs of someone dangerous to others.

Like I said earlier, I actually think all the explanations about the head gash, bruises, towel, even upstairs blood could be viable. Let's just give it to the Brazilian authorities. Whatever. But none of that supports the argument that Gatti killed himself. All of those events could still have happened had he been murdered.

What's more likely: Being drunk and pissed off after a public stoning ready to go back and beat your wife (a scenario which the past incidents you mentioned above would support) or being drunk and pissed off so he kills himself out of shame and embarrassment? Please tell me ANYTHING in Gatti's personal history or past that would support that second scenario and PLEASE don't say "Well nobody knows Gatti except Gatti". That is such a fucking cop-out argument, especially in light of a past history, which you provided, that would suggest he would react differently to the situation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BGv2.0
post Apr 24 2010, 04:23 PM
Post #17


Cruiserweight


Group: Members
Posts: 5,057
Joined: 9-December 04
From: TX
Member No.: 1,304



QUOTE (Imperius3 @ Apr 23 2010, 09:54 PM) *
What about the Phil Spector trial? Baden's wife was legal co-counsel for Spector at the time, and Baden was reportedly paid $250,000. Or the Crystallynn Girard case where Baden saved a New York DA from a multimillion lawsuit. http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about13691.html

Agreed, even though it's been reported Gatti had seven cans of beer, along with two bottles of wine, over the course of dinner and partying at a bar. http://www.dailytidings.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...0310/-1/NEWSMAP

Well, where do you think the blood came from? Gatti fell from over 7 feet from the ground. Obviously, he used the towel to dab at the wound before he fell from the staircase. Makes sense to me.

I personally don't have any friends that could pull a murder like this off and not leave a trace of evidence. And saying that the Brazilian authorities are corrupt isn't really proof of anything. Do you know these cops personally?

Once again, BOTH autopsies proved that Gatti's death was due to a hanging, not a choking. It was proven that he died from his body being suspended in the air by the neck. The forensics proved that the purse strap was used on the stair column.

I was a fan of Gatti too. But these incredible theories just aren't realistic.


I don't know enough about the Spector case to make any real opinion on it in any way.

What was reported.....does not equal the proof that a simple BAC would have given you. And let's not act like people that may have taken part in the stoning don't have reason to lie.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying about the towel. What I'm saying is that in the crime scene photo...the blood on the towel is not in proportion for how much came out after he supposedly re-opened the gash from the fall....if they are saying he re-opened the gash after the fall....you would lose about the same amount of blood (actually less since it's postmortem and your heart is not beating) as when you were dabbing the gash the entire damn floor is covered with blood...if he had been losing that same amount while using the towel.....I'm saying the towel itself would have been pure crimson...not with a few pink patterns as it was in the photo.

I don't know the cops personally....but I am very aware of the "criminal justice" system below the American border from Mexico to SA and if you honestly believe that pay offs are not business as usual ....you are lying to yourself.

All of that you claim was "proven".....but what was not proven...was that Gatti did it to himself....and that's where the questions come in.

I was a fan too....but that has NOTHING to do with why I question this case. I was always on the fence about it...UNTIL I saw the real sports story and got to see the crime scene photos....

I still say blood samples on the bed should have been tested and it's very strange that many simple standard tests were not conducted....for sure with such a high profile death.

This post has been edited by BGv2.0: Apr 24 2010, 04:52 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Imperius3
post Apr 27 2010, 05:32 PM
Post #18


Welterweight


Group: Members
Posts: 1,982
Joined: 30-July 04
Member No.: 931



QUOTE (Snoop @ Apr 24 2010, 09:32 AM) *
And NONE of those are warning signs of a suicidal person. Those are warning signs of someone dangerous to others.

Like I said earlier, I actually think all the explanations about the head gash, bruises, towel, even upstairs blood could be viable. Let's just give it to the Brazilian authorities. Whatever. But none of that supports the argument that Gatti killed himself. All of those events could still have happened had he been murdered.

What's more likely: Being drunk and pissed off after a public stoning ready to go back and beat your wife (a scenario which the past incidents you mentioned above would support) or being drunk and pissed off so he kills himself out of shame and embarrassment? Please tell me ANYTHING in Gatti's personal history or past that would support that second scenario and PLEASE don't say "Well nobody knows Gatti except Gatti". That is such a fucking cop-out argument, especially in light of a past history, which you provided, that would suggest he would react differently to the situation.


People who are dangerous to others are also a danger to themselves. That's criminal psychology 101.

You think the Brazilian authorities are right about everything else, but incorrect about the suicide ruling...and you have no proof at all to back up your theory. That's not very logical.

Like I said before, I don't think this sole incident was the primary reason he killed himself. I believe it was a combination of things. Gatti's career had crashed, and he probably had serious brain damage combined with drug and alcohol problems. Financial problems, his marriage was failing, his wife was going to leave him, and he may have faced jail time for his actions that night. The bottom line is, he was not in a stable frame of mind that night. I think it is more of a cop-out to say "It was a cover-up, Brazil is shady as fuck" when there is evidence directly pointing to a suicide. That is irrational, and it sounds like someone who doesn't want to believe Gatti killed himself.

QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 24 2010, 04:23 PM) *
I don't know enough about the Spector case to make any real opinion on it in any way.

What was reported.....does not equal the proof that a simple BAC would have given you. And let's not act like people that may have taken part in the stoning don't have reason to lie.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying about the towel. What I'm saying is that in the crime scene photo...the blood on the towel is not in proportion for how much came out after he supposedly re-opened the gash from the fall....if they are saying he re-opened the gash after the fall....you would lose about the same amount of blood (actually less since it's postmortem and your heart is not beating) as when you were dabbing the gash the entire damn floor is covered with blood...if he had been losing that same amount while using the towel.....I'm saying the towel itself would have been pure crimson...not with a few pink patterns as it was in the photo.

I don't know the cops personally....but I am very aware of the "criminal justice" system below the American border from Mexico to SA and if you honestly believe that pay offs are not business as usual ....you are lying to yourself.

All of that you claim was "proven".....but what was not proven...was that Gatti did it to himself....and that's where the questions come in.

I was a fan too....but that has NOTHING to do with why I question this case. I was always on the fence about it...UNTIL I saw the real sports story and got to see the crime scene photos....

I still say blood samples on the bed should have been tested and it's very strange that many simple standard tests were not conducted....for sure with such a high profile death.


I disagree about the towel. Like any wound, it will stop bleeding after a while. It can be reopened though if force or trauma is applied to it. When Gatti returned to the hotel, the bleeding was under control. When Gatti fell 7 feet from the staircase, the wound hit the floor and reopened. The wound probably expanded when it hit the floor too. Gatti had only just recently died, so there would still be a large supply of blood, especially in the head region.

There is evidence that he committed suicide, and no evidence at all that he was murdered. Yeah, yeah, unless it was all covered up and the evidence was wiped away. But think about it for a moment. How could anyone pull this off? You think some men came in there and actually hanged Arturo Gatti? We know Gatti would've fought them like all hell. Yet somehow these men were able to loop a strap around his neck, lift him up in the air, loop it around the stair column, and then let him hang. There was no rope around Gatti's arms or legs, so I guess these men pulled him down by the arms and legs so Gatti couldn't move. How strong was that strap again? I mean come on...this would be hard to accomplish against anyone, especially Gatti. And there were no signs of a struggle. As far as we know, those blood samples were tested because how else did they know it was Amanda's blood?

The police investigation might not have been perfect, but I believe enough evidence was gathered to confirm a suicide. I'm still waiting to see some proof of a murder.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Snoop
post Apr 27 2010, 05:54 PM
Post #19


Heavyweight


Group: Members
Posts: 6,386
Joined: 19-December 03
From: Seattle
Member No.: 87



QUOTE (Imperius3 @ Apr 27 2010, 11:32 PM) *
People who are dangerous to others are also a danger to themselves. That's criminal psychology 101.

Actually it's not. The two are mutually exclusive. One does not guarantee the other.

QUOTE
You think the Brazilian authorities are right about everything else, but incorrect about the suicide ruling...and you have no proof at all to back up your theory. That's not very logical.

What proof do you have that the contrary happened? My point is that everything they reported happening, i.e. the bruises caused by public beating, the wound reopening from the falling on the ground, the towel, could still be true had it been a murder. NONE of those things point to a suicide.

QUOTE
Like I said before, I don't think this sole incident was the primary reason he killed himself. I believe it was a combination of things. Gatti's career had crashed, and he probably had serious brain damage combined with drug and alcohol problems.

That is pure speculation. There is nothing in his past history that would suggest a stronger case for a suicide rather than a murder. Please explain the evidence directly pointing to a suicide.

QUOTE
Financial problems, his marriage was failing, his wife was going to leave him, and he may have faced jail time for his actions that night. The bottom line is, he was not in a stable frame of mind that night. I think it is more of a cop-out to say "It was a cover-up, Brazil is shady as fuck" when there is evidence directly pointing to a suicide. That is irrational, and it sounds like someone who doesn't want to believe Gatti killed himself.

With his wife walking away with 6 million dollars, it doesn't appear that the Gatti family was facing any financial problems. And in light of all the obstacles he was facing, he could have just as easily went through a divorce, and faced his day in court. What specific evidence convinces you that Gatti took his own life in the midst of all these things?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lil-lightsout
post Apr 28 2010, 01:01 AM
Post #20


Light Heavyweight


Group: Team BU
Posts: 4,200
Joined: 10-August 05
Member No.: 3,047



Obviously none of know what really happened, BUT man does it seem shady to me after watching it. I just hope the truth can one day come out of this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 30th July 2014 - 08:46 PM