[Imperius3]

Actually it's not. The two are mutually exclusive. One does not guarantee the other.


What proof do you have that the contrary happened? My point is that everything they reported happening, i.e. the bruises caused by public beating, the wound reopening from the falling on the ground, the towel, could still be true had it been a murder. NONE of those things point to a suicide.


That is pure speculation. There is nothing in his past history that would suggest a stronger case for a suicide rather than a murder. Please explain the evidence directly pointing to a suicide.


With his wife walking away with 6 million dollars, it doesn't appear that the Gatti family was facing any financial problems. And in light of all the obstacles he was facing, he could have just as easily went through a divorce, and faced his day in court. What specific evidence convinces you that Gatti took his own life in the midst of all these things?

Here is some of the evidence that points to a suicide:

-Both autopsy reports (the one done in Brazil and the one done in Canada) determined that he was suspended and hanged.
-The ligature used was from the hotel room (purse strap).
-Markings on the stairwell show that Gatti was suspended with the purse strap.
-No signs of foul play.
-No other fingerprints found on Gatti or the purse strap.
-There was no sign of forced entry and the electronic locks on the apartment indicated only Gatti and his wife had entered it. http://boxing.fanhouse.com/2009/07/18/suic...ro-gatti-death/
-No witnesses or hotel workers saw anyone else entering or leaving the room.
-Investigators determined the time frame of what the Gatti's were doing in Brazil and concluded that it wasn't possible for such an elaborate hit to be coordinated in such a short period of time.

Circumstantial evidence:

-Huge fight in public between Gatti and wife. Crowd gets involved. Gatti obviously acting out of his mind.
-Gatti has a history of being violent and crazy.
-Gatti has a history with alcohol and drugs.
-Gatti more than likely has significant brain damage from so many brutal fights.

When I mentioned financial problems, I admit I was speculating there. The money the wife received was based on the life insurance though, which doesn't necessarily reflect how much was in Gatti's bank account.

I'm willing to bet that brain damage was the primary factor that caused Gatti to commit suicide. I don't know the extent of it, so I'm speculating here too. But I think you and I both know how brutal Gatti's fights were. He took some horrific shots to the head for many years. Do you really doubt that he had some brain damage? Gatti was exceptionally brave in the ring, but that has nothing to do with suffering through brain damage or clinical depression. Throw in drugs and/or alcohol and there's no telling what a person can do.

Now, let me ask you. What evidence do you have that makes you so sure that Gatti was murdered?

[Tha Docta]

does it matter that the strap that he supposedly used to hang himself snapped after 5 secs with only 80lbs of weight attached to it?? so exactly how did he hang himself?? pretty simple question that the detective didnt have an answer for.

plus he called pat english the day he died and told him that it was a mess down there and that hes coming back.

i believe gatti was killed. arguello looks like he committed suicide though. and vernon forrest was very stupid to chase after those guys. no championship ring is worth dying over.

[PR316]

^^^^I don't think there's a definitive answer here because none of this shit is clear IMO. Too many holes from both sides of the equation.


I think its possible Gatti was killed too but I find it hard to believe that she was capable of doing it herself. I think she had to have had some help and nobody reported any sightings of someone entering Gatti's room other than Gatti and his wife.


Its unsolved and I can see why. And yes I do know that in Brazil the law is very corrupt and has had a history of that.


But if Gatti was not hung, then how else could he have died?

[Snoop]

Here is some of the evidence that points to a suicide:

-Both autopsy reports (the one done in Brazil and the one done in Canada) determined that he was suspended and hanged.
-The ligature used was from the hotel room (purse strap).
-Markings on the stairwell show that Gatti was suspended with the purse strap.
-No signs of foul play.
-No other fingerprints found on Gatti or the purse strap.
-There was no sign of forced entry and the electronic locks on the apartment indicated only Gatti and his wife had entered it. http://boxing.fanhouse.com/2009/07/18/suic...ro-gatti-death/
-No witnesses or hotel workers saw anyone else entering or leaving the room.
-Investigators determined the time frame of what the Gatti's were doing in Brazil and concluded that it wasn't possible for such an elaborate hit to be coordinated in such a short period of time.

Most of these could still hold true had it been a murder. The ones in bold are completely subjective and/or easily explained.

1) What is "foul play" and what constitutes evidence on such a subjective definition?
2) Latex gloves could have been used.
3) Unless there was a night watchman guarding their room, people could have easily gone in without being seen. It's not unfathomable that some people slip by the attention of a few night staffers. It happens all the time in hotel rooms everywhere in the world, why not this one?
4) Investigator's determination based on what? If it's true that this was the wife's hometown, such a hit could be coordinated within a couple of hours really. This is again another subjective estimation.

Circumstantial evidence:

-Huge fight in public between Gatti and wife. Crowd gets involved. Gatti obviously acting out of his mind.
-Gatti has a history of being violent and crazy.
-Gatti has a history with alcohol and drugs.
-Gatti more than likely has significant brain damage from so many brutal fights.

Again none of this suggests suicide. In fact, I would argue it's more probably that Gatti would beat his wife, as he had in the past. What would make Gatti act any differently in this instance?

When I mentioned financial problems, I admit I was speculating there. The money the wife received was based on the life insurance though, which doesn't necessarily reflect how much was in Gatti's bank account.

I'm willing to bet that brain damage was the primary factor that caused Gatti to commit suicide. I don't know the extent of it, so I'm speculating here too. But I think you and I both know how brutal Gatti's fights were. He took some horrific shots to the head for many years. Do you really doubt that he had some brain damage? Gatti was exceptionally brave in the ring, but that has nothing to do with suffering through brain damage or clinical depression. Throw in drugs and/or alcohol and there's no telling what a person can do.

Now, let me ask you. What evidence do you have that makes you so sure that Gatti was murdered?

The thing is, the evidence is just a record of what happened that night. It doesn't definitively prove a suicide or a murder; it really could had been either one. But after watching the Real Sports segments - particularly the interview with the Brazilian investigator, and the reaction of Gatti's wife - doesn't make the story sit well with me. Overall the point is that you can't use any of the evidence you presented because it doesn't strengthen the argument for a suicide just as it doesn't strengthen an argument for murder, which is why I don't refer to any it. What DOES strengthen the argument for murder are:

1) The inexplicable absence of a typically standard BAC examination.
2) The estrangulation mark on Gatti's neck being significantly slimmer than that of the purse strap
3) The "coincidental" martial agreement three week prior that resulted in a 6 million dollar inheritance.

How do you explain those?

This post has been edited by Snoop: Apr 29 2010, 12:28 PM

[BGv2.0]

There is evidence that he committed suicide, and no evidence at all that he was murdered. Yeah, yeah, unless it was all covered up and the evidence was wiped away. But think about it for a moment. How could anyone pull this off? You think some men came in there and actually hanged Arturo Gatti? We know Gatti would've fought them like all hell. Yet somehow these men were able to loop a strap around his neck, lift him up in the air, loop it around the stair column, and then let him hang. There was no rope around Gatti's arms or legs, so I guess these men pulled him down by the arms and legs so Gatti couldn't move. How strong was that strap again? I mean come on...this would be hard to accomplish against anyone, especially Gatti. And there were no signs of a struggle. As far as we know, those blood samples were tested because how else did they know it was Amanda's blood?

The police investigation might not have been perfect, but I believe enough evidence was gathered to confirm a suicide. I'm still waiting to see some proof of a murder.

Evidence...for you maybe. Not enough for me....and a lot of other folks it seems.

And let me tell you man.....when you have a STRIPPER involved....YES...what you laid out is very possible. If you had ever dated one or know somebody that has....you would see that as a HUGe motive.....strippers and large sums of money involved in a death....yeah...something will most likely be rotten in Denmark.

Although Gatti was a pro boxer...he was not a huge man....and being MEGA drunk on top of that....I could easily see two huge strip club bouncer like goons helping some whore out for cash.

I disagree about the samples being tested.....he never stated that they were...he just said it was her blood....no matter if you believe it or not....you have to admit the investigator that spoke on the program....made a shitload of generalizations.

I don't think you are waiting....I think you firmly believe this was a suicide...and that's your right to hold that opinion.

BUT....I really don't see how anybody can take it at face value...not with all of the money, motive, types of folks involved, history of the people involved, photographs.....

But that is your right.

[Imperius3]

Most of these could still hold true had it been a murder. The ones in bold are completely subjective and/or easily explained.

1) What is "foul play" and what constitutes evidence on such a subjective definition?
2) Latex gloves could have been used.
3) Unless there was a night watchman guarding their room, people could have easily gone in without being seen. It's not unfathomable that some people slip by the attention of a few night staffers. It happens all the time in hotel rooms everywhere in the world, why not this one?
4) Investigator's determination based on what? If it's true that this was the wife's hometown, such a hit could be coordinated within a couple of hours really. This is again another subjective estimation.


Again none of this suggests suicide. In fact, I would argue it's more probably that Gatti would beat his wife, as he had in the past. What would make Gatti act any differently in this instance?

How can you say none of this suggests suicide?? And you can't just gloss it over and look at a single reason and say it doesn't point to a suicide. It's the combination of all of the factors. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together, you can't just look at a single piece.

Foul play would be injuries from a struggle, broken furniture, blood/DNA/fingerprints from other suspects, etc. You know what foul play is. And the hotel they were staying at was a very classy hotel too. (http://www.dorisol.com.br/dorisol-porto-galinhas/hotel.html) They have 24-hour reception, and there would be more than a few night staffers there. They would also have security cameras around the hotel. I was about to call the hotel to ask, but decided it would be inappropriate and expensive.

What other hotels has an incident like this happened before? Show me some examples. A homicide where the assailants hanged their victim and then left undetected. I want to see some links because I can show you many examples of hotel suicides. Starting with David Carradine. (Some people believe Carradine was killed by secret ninjas too, but that's another story.)

The thing is, the evidence is just a record of what happened that night. It doesn't definitively prove a suicide or a murder; it really could had been either one. But after watching the Real Sports segments - particularly the interview with the Brazilian investigator, and the reaction of Gatti's wife - doesn't make the story sit well with me. Overall the point is that you can't use any of the evidence you presented because it doesn't strengthen the argument for a suicide just as it doesn't strengthen an argument for murder, which is why I don't refer to any it. What DOES strengthen the argument for murder are:

1) The inexplicable absence of a typically standard BAC examination.
2) The estrangulation mark on Gatti's neck being significantly slimmer than that of the purse strap
3) The "coincidental" martial agreement three week prior that resulted in a 6 million dollar inheritance.

How do you explain those?

No, the evidence is not just a record of what happened that night. It's backed by two autopsy reports, forensics on the stairwell, a purse strap, a time frame, and no signs of foul play.

1) Does it really matter if a BAC test was conducted? What will this really prove one way or another?
2) I have already given my opinion on Baden's credibility, and without actually being able to examine the purse strap it's hard to comment on. It's possible that the center section of the purse strap was tighter than the outer section. It also depends on how he tied the strap. If the purse strap wasn't used why was it near him and covered in blood? Where was the other ligature?
3) Like you said, it could just be coincidental. Or maybe Gatti had been planning to commit suicide, and he wanted to make sure his children would be raised with money.

Also, how did Amanda plan the hit anyway? I guess the phone conversation went like this:

"Hey, can you come over to the hotel and kill my husband?"
"Okay. How do you want us to do it?"
"Make it look like a suicide."
"Well, I guess we could hang him. Does anyone have any rope? No? Shit.."
"No worries, I have a purse strap you can use!"
"A purse strap? That's brilliant, why didn't I think of that!"

Or maybe:

"A purse strap? Well, actually we do have a rope."
"But it needs to look like a suicide!"
"Ok, this is what we will do. We will hang him up with the rope. Then after 3-4 hours, we will take him down, and then we will hang him back up with the purse strap to make it look more like a suicide. They won't be able to tell the difference in the autopsy."

Do you see how absurd that sounds?

Evidence...for you maybe. Not enough for me....and a lot of other folks it seems.

And let me tell you man.....when you have a STRIPPER involved....YES...what you laid out is very possible. If you had ever dated one or know somebody that has....you would see that as a HUGe motive.....strippers and large sums of money involved in a death....yeah...something will most likely be rotten in Denmark.

Although Gatti was a pro boxer...he was not a huge man....and being MEGA drunk on top of that....I could easily see two huge strip club bouncer like goons helping some whore out for cash.

I disagree about the samples being tested.....he never stated that they were...he just said it was her blood....no matter if you believe it or not....you have to admit the investigator that spoke on the program....made a shitload of generalizations.

I don't think you are waiting....I think you firmly believe this was a suicide...and that's your right to hold that opinion.

BUT....I really don't see how anybody can take it at face value...not with all of the money, motive, types of folks involved, history of the people involved, photographs.....

But that is your right.

Well, until I see some solid evidence that points to a murder, I am inclined to believe it was a suicide. Regardless of what happened to him, it's still very tragic. Whether it be suicide or murder, it was totally unnecessary. It didn't have to end like that.

[Snoop]

How can you say none of this suggests suicide?? And you can't just gloss it over and look at a single reason and say it doesn't point to a suicide. It's the combination of all of the factors. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together, you can't just look at a single piece.

Like I said before, all of those things could have still happened, together, and still had been a murder. Putting them together doesn't make them anymore a suicide or a murder.

Foul play would be injuries from a struggle, broken furniture, blood/DNA/fingerprints from other suspects, etc. You know what foul play is. And the hotel they were staying at was a very classy hotel too. (http://www.dorisol.com.br/dorisol-porto-galinhas/hotel.html) They have 24-hour reception, and there would be more than a few night staffers there. They would also have security cameras around the hotel. I was about to call the hotel to ask, but decided it would be inappropriate and expensive.

What other hotels has an incident like this happened before? Show me some examples. A homicide where the assailants hanged their victim and then left undetected. I want to see some links because I can show you many examples of hotel suicides. Starting with David Carradine. (Some people believe Carradine was killed by secret ninjas too, but that's another story.)

I wasn't talking about another murder happening in another hotel, I was talking about someone sneaking into a hotel room without the staff knowing, whether it be performing a hired assassination, or just sneaking in a non-paying guest to sleep over the paid room capacity. People sneak into rooms all the time for whatever reason; we just tend not to think about it as much when the consequences are not as drastic.

No, the evidence is not just a record of what happened that night. It's backed by two autopsy reports, forensics on the stairwell, a purse strap, a time frame, and no signs of foul play.

The autopsy, as you stated, revealed hanging and strangulation, which could be true in BOTH a suicide and a murder. I don't see what part of that is so hard to understand here. It's true for the forensics on the stairwell, purse strap and time frame as well.

1) Does it really matter if a BAC test was conducted? What will this really prove one way or another?

My concern isn't what it would show, it's why it wasn't taken in the first place, especially if it's usually a standard. The shifty and incomplete answer the investigator gave only heightened my suspicions.

Also, how did Amanda plan the hit anyway? I guess the phone conversation went like this:

"Hey, can you come over to the hotel and kill my husband?"
"Okay. How do you want us to do it?"
"Make it look like a suicide."
"Well, I guess we could hang him. Does anyone have any rope? No? Shit.."
"No worries, I have a purse strap you can use!"
"A purse strap? That's brilliant, why didn't I think of that!"

Or maybe:

"A purse strap? Well, actually we do have a rope."
"But it needs to look like a suicide!"
"Ok, this is what we will do. We will hang him up with the rope. Then after 3-4 hours, we will take him down, and then we will hang him back up with the purse strap to make it look more like a suicide. They won't be able to tell the difference in the autopsy."

Do you see how absurd that sounds?

It sounds absurd because you made it up to sound that way. What's more absurd is you actually using it to back your argument.

[Imperius3]

Like I said before, all of those things could have still happened, together, and still had been a murder. Putting them together doesn't make them anymore a suicide or a murder.

Do you see how you're reaching though with the murder theory? Do you at least acknowledge that suicide is a more likely possibility?

I wasn't talking about another murder happening in another hotel, I was talking about someone sneaking into a hotel room without the staff knowing, whether it be performing a hired assassination, or just sneaking in a non-paying guest to sleep over the paid room capacity. People sneak into rooms all the time for whatever reason; we just tend not to think about it as much when the consequences are not as drastic.

Sneaking into a hotel room to commit a murder is a little different, don't you think? It would be heavily investigated, along with video surveillance and personnel. The Gatti incident was investigated, and they ultimately decided there wasn't a murder since there wasn't any proof of it.

The autopsy, as you stated, revealed hanging and strangulation, which could be true in BOTH a suicide and a murder. I don't see what part of that is so hard to understand here. It's true for the forensics on the stairwell, purse strap and time frame as well.

Hanging and suspension, and there was no evidence that he was strangled by someone else. No evidence at all. And it doesn't fit the time frame. For such a well-executed hit to occur, it would take a long time to plan. But hey, it was all a cover-up right? Even though everything the Brazilian authorities have concluded checks out. Even the autopsy report done in Canada is consistent with the autopsy done in Brazil. Maybe Canada is part of the cover-up too.

My concern isn't what it would show, it's why it wasn't taken in the first place, especially if it's usually a standard. The shifty and incomplete answer the investigator gave only heightened my suspicions.

Dude, what does it matter?? It's just an alcohol test that has no bearing on this case at all. Everyone acknowledges Gatti had been drinking that night. You keep pointing this out as if it totally undermines the Brazilian investigation.

It sounds absurd because you made it up to sound that way. What's more absurd is you actually using it to back your argument.

Isn't that what you are saying though? The autopsy reports have stated that Gatti was suspended for at least 3 hours before he fell to the floor. So if the purse strap wasn't used, then they would've had to suspend him with a rope for 3 hours. Then I guess they took him down and put him back up with the purse strap. That's just ridiculous.

By the way, hired murders have a crucial flaw. Murder for hire leaves a paper trail even if does not leave evidence at the site of the crime. And guess what? Nothing has surfaced.

This topic is starting to depress me a lot. I'm not sure I'm going to continue this discussion anymore. I believe it was a suicide, and I've said all I needed to say. Regardless of what you believe, it was still a tragic death of a great fighter.

[Snoop]

Regardless of what you believe, it was still a tragic death of a great fighter.

We can agree on that.

[Thegreatequalize...]

When I mentioned financial problems, I admit I was speculating there. The money the wife received was based on the life insurance though, which doesn't necessarily reflect how much was in Gatti's bank account.

no, the money would have to be from his estate. if you commit suicide the insurance companies don't pay.