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> Sugar Ray Robinson vs Floyd Mayweather..
PR316
post Jul 23 2010, 09:42 PM
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Well if he gets into a war with Sugar Ray, I don't think that would bode well for him. Robinson had chilling power with either hand.

If Floyd boxes and moves, he can make it competitive.
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JonnyBlaze
post Jul 23 2010, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 23 2010, 09:42 PM) *
Well if he gets into a war with Sugar Ray, I don't think that would bode well for him. Robinson had chilling power with either hand.

If Floyd boxes and moves, he can make it competitive.

Floyd can't move nearly as good as Robinson..Floyd doesn't move good period..There are plenty of guys who move better today than Floyd..Floyd is more similar to James Toney in this aspect,they box good but don't have good footwork outside of their small movements with their feet(pivot out or whatever)..I see Floyd getting stuck in spots he wouldn't want to be in against Ray..Floyd would definitely need to work on his balance for this fight as well..Leaning in when throwing a right hand won't get ya far with Ray..
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D-MARV
post Jul 23 2010, 10:49 PM
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I agree and disagree with ya JB... Floyd has very good footwork when he uses it (See younger Floyd). Every since Floyd moved up in weight he started to fight more in the pocket (a la James Toney). I never understood why people consider Floyd a runner.
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JonnyBlaze
post Jul 24 2010, 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (D-MARV @ Jul 23 2010, 10:49 PM) *
I agree and disagree with ya JB... Floyd has very good footwork when he uses it (See younger Floyd). Every since Floyd moved up in weight he started to fight more in the pocket (a la James Toney). I never understood why people consider Floyd a runner.

Floyd is definitely not a runner..He did use footwork more in his younger days but were talkin about Floyd vs. Ray Robinson at welter not lightweight or below..Floyd also had really long arms for a guy at his weight in his younger days especially and he knows how to keep a guy at arms length through his jab..

How do you come to the conclusion of very good footwork though??I think it was decent..He would move to his right in a strategic way but it wasn't smooth like Ray Robinson who was about to punch,bow,and slip while moving to his right because of his balance..Mayweather doesn't have good balance but gets away with it through speed and abilities..When Mayweather moves backwards,he moves heel to toe which would allow a fast Ray Robinson to catch him moving backwards and drop his because of balance(or KO if the punch is flush)..

I do agree that Ray wouldn't be hitting Floyd at will like he did to LaMotta in the Massacre but Ray would find ways to expose Floyd,especially in the way he is balanced and moves..Ray would look for that kinda stuff in his opponents..Small details was the name of his game and he would expose little things that we may not even know notice until watching the fight a couple times in detail..He would fight each opponent differently..So,Floyd may be hard to hit but speed has been shown to mess with him and he's never faced a guy with Ray's speed especially at welter..
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PR316
post Jul 24 2010, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 23 2010, 11:06 PM) *
Floyd can't move nearly as good as Robinson..Floyd doesn't move good period..There are plenty of guys who move better today than Floyd..Floyd is more similar to James Toney in this aspect,they box good but don't have good footwork outside of their small movements with their feet(pivot out or whatever)..I see Floyd getting stuck in spots he wouldn't want to be in against Ray..Floyd would definitely need to work on his balance for this fight as well..Leaning in when throwing a right hand won't get ya far with Ray..


Lightweight Floyd did have good footwork. He was always light on his feet, and good with side steps and pivots. However, I have also noticed that he does get off balance ever so often especially when opponents put pressure on him(Castillo, Hatton).

But your right in saying that he's not exceptional with his footwork. When I think of great footwork, I think of fighters like Robinson, Pep, Ali, Jersey Joe Walcott, Benny Leonard, Billy Conn(Watch that first with Joe Louis), and Ezzard Charles.

Today, the lightest guy on his feet that I see is Manny Pacquiao.

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neophyte7
post Jul 25 2010, 09:05 AM
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Mayweather vs Corralles... Mayweather's foot work that night was awesome... Footwork is still damned good but he has mastered defense to the extent that he does not have to move as much. He displayed footwork against Hatton as well before knocking him out. Floyd actually expends less energy by opting to sit in the pocket and use more head and upper body movement. Arturo Gatti gave Mayweather his props for his speed in upper body movement which is another means of him being hard to hit
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JonnyBlaze
post Jul 25 2010, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Jul 25 2010, 09:05 AM) *
Mayweather vs Corralles... Mayweather's foot work that night was awesome... Footwork is still damned good but he has mastered defense to the extent that he does not have to move as much. He displayed footwork against Hatton as well before knocking him out. Floyd actually expends less energy by opting to sit in the pocket and use more head and upper body movement. Arturo Gatti gave Mayweather his props for his speed in upper body movement which is another means of him being hard to hit

Mayweathers footwork in my opinion was not awesome at all in that fight..He kept Corrales away with jabs(Floyd had longer arms than Diego) and he would step back and around..He would step hell to toe which could cause him to get knocked down if someone timed his movement..Once he picked up the front part of his foot,he is at risk..Also,Corrales didn't engage like he normally would since he was worried about Floyd's speed..Also,Corrales had to drain himself out to make that weight since Floyd said he would only fight at that weight after Corrales said he was done at that weight cause he couldn't make it anymore..

Watch Robinson,Louis,Tommy Loughran,Benny Leonard(best footwork EVER),and the rest of the guys PR316 mentioned..For the most part,the guys that PR316 mentioned were either trained by Ray Arcel or Jack Blackburn or trainers that were linked to them..Ray Robinson spent time with Blackburn and Joe Louis,which is where I think he picked up his movement from since it's the same exact movement..Their movement is meant to expend very little energy(they never pick their foot up to move unless out of distance then it doesn't matter),be completely balanced while moving and punching,and to not let their opponent know when they are moving or where they are moving..
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PR316
post Jul 26 2010, 06:29 PM
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I've heard some say that Floyd could have success with his counter right over Robinson's low left.

I don't know because even if he lands it, Robinson being taller and an expert at rolling with punches would be able to take it and counter quickly with 2 or 3 left hooks the way he would do in quick fashion, at the same time stepping and sliding around to get into position to do more damage. Of course we know Floyd is no easy target.

But what we also know is that PBF is vulnerable to a jab. Oscar De La Hoya, Philip N'Dou, and even Ricky Hatton were able to land jabs on Floyd. And with Ray's hand speed and punching accuracy, plus the snap he had in those punches, could find Floyd on receiving end of a bloody nose or bleeding from the mouth, something he's not used to enduring.

Its a difficult fight for both guys for different reasons I think.
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JonnyBlaze
post Jul 26 2010, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 26 2010, 06:29 PM) *
I've heard some say that Floyd could have success with his counter right over Robinson's low left.

I don't know because even if he lands it, Robinson being taller and an expert at rolling with punches would be able to take it and counter quickly with 2 or 3 left hooks the way he would do in quick fashion, at the same time stepping and sliding around to get into position to do more damage. Of course we know Floyd is no easy target.

But what we also know is that PBF is vulnerable to a jab. Oscar De La Hoya, Philip N'Dou, and even Ricky Hatton were able to land jabs on Floyd. And with Ray's hand speed and punching accuracy, plus the snap he had in those punches, could find Floyd on receiving end of a bloody nose or bleeding from the mouth, something he's not used to enduring.

Its a difficult fight for both guys for different reasons I think.

The reason Robinson would hold his left so low would be to keep his jab level to his opponent and not have to bring it up or down..If you watch him fight LaMotta and Basilio that's why he has it that low..If he punches down at an opponent his last 3 knuckles would land but he wanted to land his index and middle finger..To test this,just try it on a wall and you'll see what I'm talkin about..Floyd is 3 inches shorter than Floyd so he would keep it lower but not as low as he did for LaMotta and Basilio who were short to begin with and would make themselves shorter while fighting out of a full crouch instead of Ray's semi-crouch..

Floyd is vulnerable to the jab and Ray would be throwing around 40 a round..In the last LaMotta fight he threw about 60 a round with 30 other power punches EACH round..Hell of a pace..Watch the fight and count if ya don't believe me..If he had that kind of output with his jab against Floyd,I see Floyd in big trouble..DLH has a really good jab but no one today has a jab like Ray's..Ray wouldn't give you any warning it was coming so it was harder to time and see and then you add his speed to the equation and it's over..

Would Floyd be able to do good things in the fight??Yeah..They both are very very good at making adjustments after the first few rounds if things aren't going the right way for them..I see Ray being able to make more adjustments in the fight though which is in my opinion the deciding factor of who wins it..The reason why Floyd wins all his fights today is because he is able to make those adjustments which is something a lot of fighters don't have the mental energy to do..Mosley stopped thinking after he nailed Floyd for example..Mental energy keeps you focused on the task at hand and keeps you thinking and allows you to see mistakes and allows you to capitalize off the mistakes..
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PR316
post Jul 26 2010, 10:40 PM
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I wouldn't doubt at all that Robinson threw over 40 jabs a round. When I watch him, it seems like he threw even more. And it was a consistent round by round output. Ray hardly took any rounds off. I don't think I've seen a fighter with the stamina he had. I could only imagine the type of training he did compared to what most guys do. He could 15 rounds with absolutely no problem. Even in his last days at welter when he was absolutely killing himself to make the weight.


Oscar's jab is excellent but I always felt De La Hoya didn't have the confidence in his jab that he should have had. Even in his prime. He abandoned his jab against Quartey, Whitaker, and Mosley(The first fight). And we all saw against Mayweather how he put it away after getting caught with a few counter right hands. Ray wouldn't put it away. He would counter Mayweather's right with left hooks and he would fade going down the stretch.

I think Floyd would do some good things as well. At welterweight, Docusen and Gavilan, slick fighters with good skills were able to make Robinson miss. Floyd would be able to as well. And he would land his rights. The challenge would be to stay sharp and in his zone for 12 or 15 rounds against a guy that is so fast and relentless, not to mention that he punches with knockout power in either hand.

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