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> Is B.J. Penn a Top 10 ATG?
The CEO
post Dec 1 2010, 01:14 PM
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Still on the cusp for me...
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Run and Gun Game...
post Dec 1 2010, 07:35 PM
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dont know how you got penn on the cusp when he won 2 out of three fights with hughes. Also considering hughes is considered p4p the strongest fighter in mma, BJ beat Hughes once in his prime, Bj was fighting a weight class above his natural weight, and you have hughes listed in the top 10
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Warlord
post Dec 1 2010, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 1 2010, 09:31 AM) *
Sakuraba like royce won when alot of guys were still brawling instead of fighting true mma. While sakuraba was a good fighter with alot of good wins, put in in a ring prime v/s prime against BJ and I think BJ penn wins, but that would be an incredable fight.

Check the numbers, bro. Sakuraba is light years beyond B.J. Penn in the accomplishment department.

Kazushi Sakuraba - 26 wins

Wins 4 (T)KOs ( 15.38 %)
19 Submissions ( 73.08 %)
3 Decisions ( 11.54 %)

Sakuraba finishes nearly 74% of his opponents within the time-limit... by submission alone! Add in TKO/KO finishes, and Kazushi Sakuraba finishes his oppnents 88.46% of the time... that's nearly 90 fucking percent! One of the highest finish rates... ever! Higher than Anderson Silva, the UFC's self-proclaimed GOAT. Higher than Fedor. And higher than Penn.

Kazushi Sakuraba - Greatest Wins [Underlined names are all former champions.]

Win Ikuhisa Minowa Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Ken Shamrock TKO (Punch)
Win Kevin Randleman Submission (Armbar) [UFC Heavyweight Champion]
Win Quinton Jackson Submission (Rear Naked Choke) [UFC Light Heavyweight Champion]
Win Ryan Gracie Decision (Unanimous)
Win Renzo Gracie Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Royce Gracie TKO (Corner Stoppage) [3-Time UFC Tournament Champion]
Win Guy Mezger TKO (Retirement)
Win Royler Gracie Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Ebenezer Fontes Braga Submission (Armbar)
Win Vitor Belfort Decision (Unanimous) [UFC Heavyweight Champion]
Win Carlos Newton Submission (Kneebar) [UFC Welterweight Champion]
Win Vernon White Submission (Armbar)

Kazushi Sakuraba spent his entire career fighting (and usually beating) men far, far beyond his own weight. He demolished the Gracie clan when the world still saw them as unbeatable. I'll take Sakuraba's wins over Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Rampage Jackson, Vitor Belfort, and Kevin Randleman over any 5 wins that you think define BJ Penn's career.



QUOTE
Wanderlei silva though in my opinion isnt close to BJ Penn all time. Silva lost almost every time he stepped up. He did decision dan henderson, and owned Jackson when Jackson was coming up. And beat up a much smaller sakuraba. but other than that he lost to belfort by tko, tito ortiz, mark hunt and ricardo arona???? really? Lost to chuck liddel, jackson, and rich franklin. Way over rated. Most of his wins were against underqualified fighters in pride.

I'm not going to spend as much time debating Wanderlei's spot as Sakuraba's, because Wanderlei generally gets the respect he deserves.

I'll just say Wanderlei's best victories outweigh Penn's, and Wanderlei's reign as the Pride Middleweight Champion was one of the longest, most dominant title reigns in MMA history. 6 years he reigned, unquestionably the greatest 205lber in the world at that time. BJ Penn never had, and never will have, those kinds of credentials.

QUOTE
BJ penn beat well rounded fighters like, florian, sherk, hughes (in hughes prime), Sanchez, stevenson, renzo and rodrogo gracie, gomi (in his prime), serra, uno, and din thomas.

You're giving BJ credit for wins that you won't give Wanderlei or Sakuraba credit for.

Florian is a gatekeeper, Sherk is one-dimensional, Hughes isn't from this generation any more than Royce is, Sanchez is shit at 155, Stevenson is shit at any weight, Renzo was 90 when they fought, Rodrigo is like the 34th best Gracie, Gomi was not close to his prime but it is still BJ's best win, Serra is shit, Uno is a good win, and Din Thomas is a never-was who doesn't really merit mentioning in this discussion.

QUOTE
The good old days in mma were not so good. You had a few well rounded fighters who dominated the game over guys who had no clue how to defend themselves. The guys on BJ penns resume are far superior to anything Walderlei accomplished.

I'll take wins over Kazushi Sakuraba (3x), Rampage Jackson(2x), Dan Henderson, and Ricardo Arona over any 7 fights you think define BJ Penn any day of the week.


Anyway, it's nothing personal. I like you, Run, and am glad to be having a real conversation with someone who knows MMA. So don't feel like I'm disrespecting you or shitting on your opinion. I'm not.
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Run and Gun Game...
post Dec 1 2010, 11:41 PM
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Its all good we just disagree bro
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Warlord
post Dec 1 2010, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 2 2010, 12:41 AM) *
Its all good we just disagree bro

I think we agree on Anderson Silva's over-rated ass, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for Penn, off of pure talent there are few fighters, if any, that can really compare. From that standpoint he always merits discussion. Career-wise he's just been such a huge under-achiever, and a notoriously streaky fighter. He's still got time to catapult himself into the upper echelon of all-time greats, but I just don't think he's there yet, and the clock is ticking.


And now to get wildly off topic, prime for prime, I think Sakuraba toys with Anderson Silva and submits him. Anderson has never shown the ability to deal with unorthodox fighters, and his takedown defense is garbage. Sakuraba has some of the best takedowns in MMA history, and he knew what to do from every position. Sakuraba in top position would be Anderson's death knell. He'd get arm-barred or knee-barred.

Fighters in the UFC today still don't have the raw natural talent that Sakuraba had. EVERY event you see some shit head doing the butt-scoot, or laying on his back throwing weak, shitty, half-hearted up-kicks. And their opponents have NO CLUE what to do. They're all like just standing over them and shit, trying to figure out what to do.

Sakuraba would leg kick those mother-fuckers to death. They'd be welted up in minutes, hobbling back to their corners in agony. (See Sakuraba/Belfort.) And if he wasn't leg kicking you, he was doing other crazy shit. That flying M. Bison-style tornado death stomp he hit Belfort with (twice!) was hilarious, ingenious, and amazingly effective all at once.

God I miss Sakuraba. Prime Sakuraba. The guy was one in a million.
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dominicbuilder9k...
post Dec 2 2010, 02:15 AM
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QUOTE (The CEO @ Aug 29 2010, 05:05 AM) *
That's a fair assessment...at his best, his skills are undeniable...

but all things considered, I can't put him in The Top 10 now...MIGHT have had him at #10 before he met Frankie Edgar though...lol

I think last night was very crucial to his Legacy...winning that rematch convincingly would have said a lot...he should have known that and been up for it.


I also agree about Royce.....I'd say putting him on a pedestal for at least another 8 years would be sufficient...giving him the Jack Johnson treatment on a shorter time line per se....


I agree..!!!.

This post has been edited by dominicbuilder9k1: Dec 2 2010, 02:15 AM
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Run and Gun Game...
post Dec 2 2010, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Warlord @ Dec 2 2010, 02:59 AM) *
I think we agree on Anderson Silva's over-rated ass, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for Penn, off of pure talent there are few fighters, if any, that can really compare. From that standpoint he always merits discussion. Career-wise he's just been such a huge under-achiever, and a notoriously streaky fighter. He's still got time to catapult himself into the upper echelon of all-time greats, but I just don't think he's there yet, and the clock is ticking.


And now to get wildly off topic, prime for prime, I think Sakuraba toys with Anderson Silva and submits him. Anderson has never shown the ability to deal with unorthodox fighters, and his takedown defense is garbage. Sakuraba has some of the best takedowns in MMA history, and he knew what to do from every position. Sakuraba in top position would be Anderson's death knell. He'd get arm-barred or knee-barred.

Fighters in the UFC today still don't have the raw natural talent that Sakuraba had. EVERY event you see some shit head doing the butt-scoot, or laying on his back throwing weak, shitty, half-hearted up-kicks. And their opponents have NO CLUE what to do. They're all like just standing over them and shit, trying to figure out what to do.

Sakuraba would leg kick those mother-fuckers to death. They'd be welted up in minutes, hobbling back to their corners in agony. (See Sakuraba/Belfort.) And if he wasn't leg kicking you, he was doing other crazy shit. That flying M. Bison-style tornado death stomp he hit Belfort with (twice!) was hilarious, ingenious, and amazingly effective all at once.

God I miss Sakuraba. Prime Sakuraba. The guy was one in a million.




Anderson silva is the most over hyped fighter in mma history. He is a very good fighter, but best all time??? Hell no. He hasnt ever had to fight anyone. a submission win over Dan Henderson is the only win on his record i would call a great win. he has alot of good wins though.

I dont wanna take anything away from thew guy, but just because a ufc put your ass on the cover and proclaims you the best ever to promote their product, doesnt make it so.

I agree Sakuraba in his prime was the most talented fighter i have ever seen, followed closely by BJ penn
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