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> Should there be limits on weight gain?
Method
post Sep 15 2010, 10:00 AM
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No limit on gains, but weigh in same day.


...forfeit purse to your opponent if you show up to the weigh-in and are over.
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Snoop
post Sep 15 2010, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 15 2010, 08:57 AM) *
Same day weigh ins were abolished to stop a fighter dehydrating and being unable to rehydrate in time for the fight.  This was always one of the biggest dangers when concerning brain injuries.  However, we all know that is wrong for a boxer to box at 140 but weigh in at 160 come fight time.  Is it equally as dangerous though?

You have to ask the question - if boxer A weighs 140 but enters the ring at 160 in a junior welterweight bout and boxer B weighs 140 and enters the ring at 142, should not boxer B perhaps consider fighting at 135?  You see what I'm saying?

I personally believe the dehydration issue outweighs the (sometimes) gross discrepancy between the division weight and the actual fighting weight.

The only solution would be to monitor the boxers much more during training to ensure they weren't boiling down at the last minute and then having 24 hours to rehydrate as they do currently. So, they are weighed 7 days before the fight, 3 days before the fight and then on the day of the fight.  This would enable the commissions to safely gauge if a fighter was weighing comfortably enough to get to the limit without last minute dehydration becoming necessary and it should, in most cases, prevent the huge weight difference sometimes seen on fight night. 

I disagree. Dehydrating yourself and putting yourself at risk to, as you say, "one of the biggest dangers when concerning brain injuries", should never be an obligation of a fighter, but a choice.
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HaydelHammer
post Sep 15 2010, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Sep 14 2010, 08:01 PM) *
Same day weigh in and stop with the bullshit.

How in the hell is it a lightweight fight when one guy walks into the ring as a jr middle?


THIS!!!
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SENTRAL
post Sep 15 2010, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Snoop @ Sep 15 2010, 10:28 AM) *
I disagree. Dehydrating yourself and putting yourself at risk to, as you say, "one of the biggest dangers when concerning brain injuries", should never be an obligation of a fighter, but a choice.


Well if you simply quote a bolded part of my post without reading it in the context it was written, then of course, it could be considered disagreeable.  The part you have bolded was simply highlighting the way boxers currently play with their weight.  It wasn't my opinion to disagree with because I believe I clearly stated in the next paragraph exactly where my thoughts lie. 
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Snoop
post Sep 15 2010, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 15 2010, 07:13 PM) *
Well if you simply quote a bolded part of my post without reading it in the context it was written, then of course, it could be considered disagreeable.  The part you have bolded was simply highlighting the way boxers currently play with their weight.  It wasn't my opinion to disagree with because I believe I clearly stated in the next paragraph exactly where my thoughts lie. 

No I read your entire post and what I'm reading is that your opinion is that the potential dangers of dehydration is enough to warrant the weight advantage of fighters that choose to take that risk. I still disagree with that.

However, I can still empathize with your point because it is, afterall, within the rules, but your suggestion (stated in the part that I bolded) that a fighter choosing to fight at 140 and come in at 142 should consider going the dehydration route to 135 is what I disagree with. Maybe that's not what you meant to say, but at least from the way I read it, it sounded that way by the way you worded it.

I guess it goes to a further debate on how far rules should regulate the choices of fighters, but in this case, I think it everyone would win out if they just regulated same day weigh-ins (fighters would not risk themselves of dehydration, fighters not choosing to dehydrate would have fair fights, the fans would get to watch fair fights, etc).
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SENTRAL
post Sep 15 2010, 03:05 PM
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Dehydration leads to changes in the volume of compartments within the
cranium that could put sportsmen and women at risk of brain damage after
head injuries, according to a team of UK researchers.

In adults, the cranium (the part of the skull that encloses the
brain) is a rigid bony vault of fixed size, with a constant volume that
is the product of the volume of the brain, the intracranial
cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in a compartment known as the subarachnoid
space, and the intra- cranial blood. The brain is suspended within the
sub-arachnoid space, which surrounds it with a protective cushion of
fluid. The brain itself contains fluid- filled cavities known as the
cerebral ventricles, which communicate with the subarachnoid space.

The aim of this pioneering study was to investigate the relationship
between dehydration and changes in the volume of the brain and the
cerebral ventricles in six healthy male amateur rugby union players.

The subjects underwent magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the
brain before and after a period of exercise designed to cause
significant dehydration, while samples of blood and urine were taken
before and afterwards to assess the degree of dehydration.. One of the
subjects (control) undertook a further series of MRI scans to enable the
researchers to assess day-to-day fluctuations of brain and ventricular
volume in a normally hydrated healthy person.
They found that the subjects lost between 2.1% and 2.6% of their body
mass from sweating during the exercise. They also found a correlation
between the degree of dehydration and the change in ventricular volume,
with changes in the latter much larger than those seen in the normally
hydrated control subject.

‘Changes in the volume of the brain, the intracranial CSF (especially
the subarachnoid space) and the intracranial blood may influence the
outcome of closed head injuries,’ the researchers explain. ‘After an
impact to the head the brain will travel further within the cranium
before it meets the skull if the subarachnoid space is enlarged than in
the normally hydrated state. Consequently it will accelerate to higher
velocities and this may increase the likelihood of contusion injuries
after blows to the head such as those sustained in boxing, football and
rugby’.

Although the researchers acknowledge that their study was too small
to be definitive, they conclude that dehydration causes changes in the
volume of intra-cranial compartments that may put sportsmen and women at
increased risk of brain damage from contusion injury (bruising) and
internal haemorrhage after head injuries.

‘Some sportsmen and women, eg boxers, rugby players and footballers,
are especially vulnerable to serious head injuries whilst dehydrated.’


The above explains what I'd imagine everybody already knew but I've posted it just to clarify where and why I feel a boiled down dehydrated boxer is at a far greater risk than a hydrated boxer facing somebody 10-15Ibs heavier than him.

I disagree with those advocating same day weigh ins because, unless the boxers are continously monitored in the run up to the weigh in there is no knowing how badly the boxer has dehydrated to make weight. This is why it was scrapped in the first place. Two healthy hydrated fighters, one being much bigger than the other on fight night presents a greater risk than two fighters at the same fighting weight, one who is dehydrated. The current system is abused, Gatti (in the Gamache fight) being a good example, Pac for long periods being another.

So yes, the system is flawed but it is my belief that unless there is a complete overhaul, it is safer today than it was prior to the 24 hour weigh in.
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flazi
post Sep 15 2010, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Sep 14 2010, 09:23 PM) *
Far from weak man.

My good friend has been into powerlifting for around 20 years now on and off. He said he is doing one more competition and he is done, too much stress on his body as he gets older. Anyway, he weighs around 190lbs. His lifts are approx. 650 DL, 550 squat, and his bench(weakest) around 400. I went to a few of his competitions over the years, crazy how fucking strong people can get lifting weights. Some of those little guys can put up crazy weights, I just don't get it.

Thanks but its not enough. Some of these guys are on steriods and they don't test at some of these events. Yeah the little guys can put up crazy weight cause their range of motion is shorter. Your friend has some good numbers. i wish him luck in his next and last meet. I think my next is also my last. Way too much stress on your joints.
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Sep 14 2010, 09:55 PM) *
Oh..I thought you boxed..Well in something like power lifting,weight would be a bigger factor..10 lbs would be a huge differece which is true also in boxing but I think not as big of a difference than in power lifting..In boxing there are more factors involved when it really comes down to it..410 bench is beastly..When I weighed 210 lbs,the most I got to was alittle over 300 lbs benching and I'd curl 60 lbs 15 times with each arm..I stopped lifting like 1.5 years ago though to getting my muscle in boxing condition..It definitely takes a lot of time to get up to putting up those numbers that you do but then it starts to become muscle memory..Have you had any serious injuries??

I have blown out a knee and have elbow bursitis the normal shoulder strains other than that i am good. the crazy part is that i lift and compete without a belt.
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Snoop
post Sep 15 2010, 03:21 PM
Post #28


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QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 15 2010, 08:05 PM) *
Dehydration leads to changes in the volume of compartments within the
cranium that could put sportsmen and women at risk of brain damage after
head injuries, according to a team of UK researchers.

In adults, the cranium (the part of the skull that encloses the
brain) is a rigid bony vault of fixed size, with a constant volume that
is the product of the volume of the brain, the intracranial
cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in a compartment known as the subarachnoid
space, and the intra- cranial blood. The brain is suspended within the
sub-arachnoid space, which surrounds it with a protective cushion of
fluid. The brain itself contains fluid- filled cavities known as the
cerebral ventricles, which communicate with the subarachnoid space.

The aim of this pioneering study was to investigate the relationship
between dehydration and changes in the volume of the brain and the
cerebral ventricles in six healthy male amateur rugby union players.

The subjects underwent magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the
brain before and after a period of exercise designed to cause
significant dehydration, while samples of blood and urine were taken
before and afterwards to assess the degree of dehydration.. One of the
subjects (control) undertook a further series of MRI scans to enable the
researchers to assess day-to-day fluctuations of brain and ventricular
volume in a normally hydrated healthy person.
They found that the subjects lost between 2.1% and 2.6% of their body
mass from sweating during the exercise. They also found a correlation
between the degree of dehydration and the change in ventricular volume,
with changes in the latter much larger than those seen in the normally
hydrated control subject.

‘Changes in the volume of the brain, the intracranial CSF (especially
the subarachnoid space) and the intracranial blood may influence the
outcome of closed head injuries,’ the researchers explain. ‘After an
impact to the head the brain will travel further within the cranium
before it meets the skull if the subarachnoid space is enlarged than in
the normally hydrated state. Consequently it will accelerate to higher
velocities and this may increase the likelihood of contusion injuries
after blows to the head such as those sustained in boxing, football and
rugby’.

Although the researchers acknowledge that their study was too small
to be definitive, they conclude that dehydration causes changes in the
volume of intra-cranial compartments that may put sportsmen and women at
increased risk of brain damage from contusion injury (bruising) and
internal haemorrhage after head injuries.

‘Some sportsmen and women, eg boxers, rugby players and footballers,
are especially vulnerable to serious head injuries whilst dehydrated.’


The above explains what I'd imagine everybody already knew but I've posted it just to clarify where and why I feel a boiled down dehydrated boxer is at a far greater risk than a hydrated boxer facing somebody 10-15Ibs heavier than him.

I disagree with those advocating same day weigh ins because, unless the boxers are continously monitored in the run up to the weigh in there is no knowing how badly the boxer has dehydrated to make weight. This is why it was scrapped in the first place. Two healthy hydrated fighters, one being much bigger than the other on fight night presents a greater risk than two fighters at the same fighting weight, one who is dehydrated. The current system is abused, Gatti (in the Gamache fight) being a good example, Pac for long periods being another.

So yes, the system is flawed but it is my belief that unless there is a complete overhaul, it is safer today than it was prior to the 24 hour weigh in.

Solid argument.

But you don't think that changing to same day weigh-ins would dissaude fighters from dehydrating such large amounts of weight?

This post has been edited by Snoop: Sep 15 2010, 03:27 PM
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SENTRAL
post Sep 15 2010, 03:47 PM
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Essentially I do agree that same day weigh ins would prevent the gross discrepancy between the supposed fighting weight and the actual in ring weight.  Would it dissuade fighters from dehydrating such large amounts of weight?  No, I don't think so but then I am only going on what the evidence suggested prior to the current system being introduced. 

I guess my point is, unless monitoring is strictly adhered to say, 14, 7 and 3 days before the official weigh in, we will have to face up to the consequences of why same day weigh ins were abolished in the first place.

However, I feel everyone agrees the current system is being abused and needs an overhaul, but I would oppose simply switching back to the same day weigh in without something along the lines I posted above being included.
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Snoop
post Sep 15 2010, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 15 2010, 09:47 PM) *
Essentially I do agree that same day weigh ins would prevent the gross discrepancy between the supposed fighting weight and the actual in ring weight.  Would it dissuade fighters from dehydrating such large amounts of weight?  No, I don't think so but then I am only going on what the evidence suggested prior to the current system being introduced. 

I guess my point is, unless monitoring is strictly adhered to say, 14, 7 and 3 days before the official weigh in, we will have to face up to the consequences of why same day weigh ins were abolished in the first place.

However, I feel everyone agrees the current system is being abused and needs an overhaul, but I would oppose simply switching back to the same day weigh in without something along the lines I posted above being included.

I see your argument. I guess I would think the same day weigh-ins would dissaude fighters from dehydrating large amounts of weight since their disadvantage from dehydrating wouldn't warrant their advantage in size (I see your point now), but I guess it would also take a few fights for people to start learning that. Seems like the approach to training needs to be changed, which sounds like a change of mindset, not of rules.
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