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> Heavyweight Super Six...
gravytrain
post Sep 20 2010, 05:12 PM
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Well, using both a prime Tyson and Louis, I think Tyson would get frustrated and Louis would capitalize on it.
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gravytrain
post Sep 21 2010, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Sep 20 2010, 10:39 PM) *
I understand what you are saying, but prime Tyson was fundamentally sound and devastating. Louis was one of the greatest heavies ever but he never fought an animal like the truly prime Tyson. Conventional wisdom will always take Louis and for good reasons. But IMO, Louis would come forward and Tyson would hurt him and get him out of there in the first 4 rounds.


Prime Tyson also got frustrated when people didn't tremble as soon as he got in the ring, plus most people use his prime as 86-89 and that's pretty ridiculous. I don't know what you consider his prime but after having watched both Louis and Tyson I think Louis would take him. To be honest I see Tyson getting rocked with a huge right hand while coming in then it going downhill for him from there. Louis vs the wide lunging hooks of Tyson? I like those odds.
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gravytrain
post Sep 27 2010, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Sep 27 2010, 10:16 PM) *
The vast majority would agree with your assessment, for good reasons. Certainly Tyson's prime was at a very early age, but I believe the difference would be in the generational physical differences. And I'm not sure what you are looking at but prime Tyson was very economical with his punches, he punched in combos and they were generally tight.

It is kind of ridiculous that I am in the position of defending a fighter that I never really liked and I always knew would be exposed if he was not at the very top of his game. That said, Tyson at the top of his game was too much physically for Louis. If they fought a rematch I would take Louis.



In his prime Tyson was often frustrated by fighters who clenched, Louis clenched quite frequently. I just think Tyson would get frustrated and Louis would start capitalizing on the lack of focus. I'm not trying to say he was completely reckless and only leaped in while swinging wildly, he just went all or nothing on punches at times and could give someone the chance to catch him coming in.
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JonnyBlaze
post Sep 28 2010, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 27 2010, 09:48 PM) *
In his prime Tyson was often frustrated by fighters who clenched, Louis clenched quite frequently. I just think Tyson would get frustrated and Louis would start capitalizing on the lack of focus. I'm not trying to say he was completely reckless and only leaped in while swinging wildly, he just went all or nothing on punches at times and could give someone the chance to catch him coming in.

Louis clinched only when he got caught on the button unlike some guys who would try to fight there way out of it..Louis would recover quick though and get back on his game..He had a lot of mental energy which also helped him recover quicker like Benny Leonard..If Tyson gave Louis a chance to catch him,he would like he always does..All guys who came at Louis got put down..

I think that you have it wrong though,Louis was clinched quite frequent because he was hurting everyone..Louis was great at fending guys off when clinched because of his great inside work due to short punches and making space even when there is none..
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gravytrain
post Sep 28 2010, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Sep 28 2010, 09:41 PM) *
Louis clinched only when he got caught on the button unlike some guys who would try to fight there way out of it..Louis would recover quick though and get back on his game..He had a lot of mental energy which also helped him recover quicker like Benny Leonard..If Tyson gave Louis a chance to catch him,he would like he always does..All guys who came at Louis got put down..

I think that you have it wrong though,Louis was clinched quite frequent because he was hurting everyone..Louis was great at fending guys off when clinched because of his great inside work due to short punches and making space even when there is none..



I think Louis clenched because it's a great defensive move, the clench is underrated. There's a difference between clenching and just holding somebody and stuffing somebody's offense with your clench then catching them on the inside.

Clenching is really a lost art.
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JonnyBlaze
post Sep 29 2010, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 28 2010, 09:07 PM) *
I think Louis clenched because it's a great defensive move, the clench is underrated. There's a difference between clenching and just holding somebody and stuffing somebody's offense with your clench then catching them on the inside.

Clenching is really a lost art.

Clinches are strategic when used properly..In Holyfield/Tyson,Holyfield used clinches as strategy,not to just clinch..

Is it a lost art??I think it might be..It isn't used as strategy as much as it is for fear or being a bitch and not wanting punches coming back at you..Also,you need to know how to clinch..Most guys just hug and don't know what they're doin..Ray Robinson and Louis showed how to fight out of a clinch and how to make room for punches,especially uppercuts..If Tyson tried to clinch Louis,he'd be getting hit with BRUTAL uppercuts..Louis was good at timing guys coming in to clinch and if they did get in,he knew how to roll his shoulder which would create the space that wasn't there before..
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Guest_Fitz_*
post Sep 29 2010, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 29 2010, 12:07 PM) *
I think Louis clenched because it's a great defensive move, the clench is underrated. There's a difference between clenching and just holding somebody and stuffing somebody's offense with your clench then catching them on the inside.

Clenching is really a lost art.


Thank you. People that think any type of clinching is bad gets on my nerves. I too think their is a difference when clinching correctly and clinching and being a pain in the ass.
Probably could have saved Cotto against Margarito if he knew how to tie up.
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JonnyBlaze
post Sep 29 2010, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 29 2010, 03:22 AM) *
Thank you. People that think any type of clinching is bad gets on my nerves. I too think their is a difference when clinching correctly and clinching and being a pain in the ass.
Probably could have saved Cotto against Margarito if he knew how to tie up.

A lot of guys don't want to ever clinch..I've never been in a clinch in all the sparring I've done..I'll push the guy off me before or catch him coming in..I'm 6'2 and love inside fighting if necessary(if my jab/feet aren't doin what they're supposed to or if someone gets inside)..I never will go for the clinch though since when I'm on the inside is when I explode with combos..A lot of guys don't expect me to want to be on the inside and throwing uppercuts..My right uppercut is probably my favorite punch to throw..I've learned a lot of people in the amateurs don't block uppercuts too well..haha..It's a very under used punch in the amateurs I feel..I rarely see guys using it..This could just be me but at the Golden Gloves I don't see it used much..

Clinches are important though..They can save you..I think it really depends on a boxer's mentality though if they'll use em..
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gravytrain
post Sep 29 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 29 2010, 04:22 AM) *
Thank you. People that think any type of clinching is bad gets on my nerves. I too think their is a difference when clinching correctly and clinching and being a pain in the ass.
Probably could have saved Cotto against Margarito if he knew how to tie up.


There's clenching like Mosley[holding on] and Clenching like Louis where you limit their offense, attack the body, and usually try to push them to the ropes. If Cotto could have worked a clench he could have avoided getting put against the ropes altogether. I think simply holding on really helped Mosley out in the fight with Margarito because it literally made his offense plummet.

Clenching has kind of turned into something taboo these days, people just think it's done when you're hurt or overmatched rather than looking to a fighter like BHop and seeing a clench as a offensive and defensive move.
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gravytrain
post Sep 29 2010, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Sep 29 2010, 01:36 AM) *
Clinches are strategic when used properly..In Holyfield/Tyson,Holyfield used clinches as strategy,not to just clinch..

Is it a lost art??I think it might be..It isn't used as strategy as much as it is for fear or being a bitch and not wanting punches coming back at you..Also,you need to know how to clinch..Most guys just hug and don't know what they're doin..Ray Robinson and Louis showed how to fight out of a clinch and how to make room for punches,especially uppercuts..If Tyson tried to clinch Louis,he'd be getting hit with BRUTAL uppercuts..Louis was good at timing guys coming in to clinch and if they did get in,he knew how to roll his shoulder which would create the space that wasn't there before..


Louis could really work a clench, my favorite is SRR though. Sugar could be brutal in a clench. I remember in SRR/LaMotta VI SRR had Jake a little dazed and wrapped him up with one hand, turned their backs to the ref and was just pounding Jake to the face with his free hand. Such a totally vicious display of boxing skills.

Louis would often just hold you with his gloves and move you around by pushing on you, attack the midsection, and could block your punch and separate by pushing with his free hand and moving his arm out to parry your punch. There are a lot of subtle things that really make him the GOAT.
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