[gravytrain]

Yeah but how many guys like that that did Lennox fool around without even hurting them bad, thining of Tua and the Croatian guy. How many guys did Larry Holmes did not finish either? I mean why do they get a pass and Vitaly doesn't when only 3 fighters have made it to the final round?

I haven't given them a pass, this is just about the Klits and the possibility of them being P4P fighters.

They're not the only fighters that haven't been "closers", the big difference to me is that they honestly have no legitimate competition and they're both still in their prime. And it's not that they can't end it early, it's that they refuse to.

[pesticid]

I haven't given them a pass, this is just about the Klits and the possibility of them being P4P fighters.

They're not the only fighters that haven't been "closers", the big difference to me is that they honestly have no legitimate competition and they're both still in their prime. And it's not that they can't end it early, it's that they refuse to.

For Wlad I can agree, he is in his prime and since Manny took over he is even more afraid. For Vitaly on the other hand, he is no longer in his prime, his quickness and power is not the same and he throws a load of hard punches setting records for punches landed as a heavyweight. So this does apply to Wlad but not to Vitaly.

[Big Slim Sweet]

I see what you are saying Slim, but I don't think the fact they are brothers can be ignored.

I don't think it takes away from each others legacy either. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I think it can be looked at in two ways:

1. The best fighters in the divisison won't fight each other, which should never happen
2. They are the only good fighters in the shit division, a win for either will be a good win over a good fighter, but because of the circumstances, they will never get that chance at having a good win on their resume that will do them justice.

I don't think reason one will be held against them. Though I can see reason 2 being something that takes away from their legacy. I have always thought that the heavyweight division now are holding the Klitschko's back. I think they are better than they are given credit for, just because the rest of the division make them look bad. I think if they fought in a different era, they would probably be more respected, because we would see that they could do more than just hold their own against good opposition.
There just haven't been any good fighters, so they don't have that guy on their resume for them to look good. So I suppose if you look at it that they are the only two good guys, perhaps if it was possible for them to fight each other, it would be a win against a good opposition, so they get their credit. That will not happen, so I think it can hurt them that way, because they just won't get appreciated.
I don't look at it as a way as the two guys refusing to fight each other (like Pacquiao-Mayweather). I know you don't think that either, I just though that the 'hurt their legacy' argument could be looked at in two different ways.

The fact that they're brothers can't be ignored as far as them not fighting, it's true. But being the man in a division brings a different type of pressure than being 1/2 of that does. Who knows how either guy would respond to that type of pressure? I believe Vitali would handle it well. Not so sure about Wlad.

I'm just not sure how you rank them individually in the p4p category. To use a wrestling analogy, think of The Road Warriors. Hawk and Animal were two of the baddest dudes in wrestling, but neither one really gets talked about as being one of the greats of their era, with guys like Hogan, Flair, Savage, Hart, etc. They always get thrown into the conversation in tandem. I don't really see either Wlad or Vitali building an individual legacy for themselves, though maybe I'm holding it against them that they're more or less equally dominant over the same sorry sack of shit competition.

For the record, the two have grown on me the past couple of years in terms of accepting and acknowledging that they're pretty legit fighters. I don't think either one could have hung with Lennox Lewis 10 years ago but this is unquestionably become their era, for whatever that's worth.

[JLUVBABY]

With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.

speed will be the killer of vitali king... he has yet to fight someone with speed with a punch he respects...

[JLUVBABY]

With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.

speed will be the killer of vitali king... he has yet to fight someone with speed with a punch he respects...

[JLUVBABY]

Yeah but how many guys like that that did Lennox fool around without even hurting them bad, thining of Tua and the Croatian guy. How many guys did Larry Holmes did not finish either? I mean why do they get a pass and Vitaly doesn't when only 3 fighters have made it to the final round?

i wouldnt say those guys get a past... tho i will also say lewis is a notch below a great heavyweight but i can see where some might rank him i suppose... that aside larry holmes ko'd any cream puff he fought in his prime... maybe a few of them lingered on but he got those guys out of there... every body the klits have faced in the last few years have been sub par opponents for what should be the most prestigous prize in all of sports.. only contenders i personally feel had reason in the ring with them are thompson, maybe peter and really arreola was unproven against a true contender before he stepped in the ring with them... there is nobody except for maybe haye and valuev that is PREPARED to step in the ring with them and give a true test... like i said before maybe thompson gives vitali a good fight because of styles and MAYBE arreola gives wlad a nice shoot out... after that what?... only other guy i think would make a good fight with vitali if he'd be willing to fight him would be dimentrinko and again because of his style... just would make for a fan friendly fight... back on subject tho... lol... believe me if larry holmes had the punch of either klit to go with his boxing skill he'd be considered the greatest right now not ali... tho i rank him very high on my list as it is... being respectful to louis i have him at my number 3...

This post has been edited by JLUVBABY: Oct 20 2010, 06:04 PM

[pesticid]

All of Vitali's first 38 fights can be found here:

http://www.ex.ua/view/134824

01. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Tony Bradham (06.11.1996)
02. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Frantisek Sumina (30.11.1996)
03. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Brian Lee Sargent (21.12.1996 )
04. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Mike Acklie (25.01.1997)
05. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Troy Roberts (22.02.1997)
06. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Calvin Jones (08.03.1997)
07. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Derrick Roddy (12.04.1997)
08. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Cleveland Woods (10.05.1997)
09. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Jimmy Haynes (14.06.1997)
10. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Will Hinton (04.10.1997)
11. Vitali Klitschko KO 6 Gilberto Williamson (08.11.1997)
12. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Anthony Willis (20.12.1997)
13. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Marcus Rhode (17.01.1998)
14. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Alben Belinski (30.01.1998)
15. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Louis Monaco (07.03.1998)
16. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Levi Billups (20.03.1998)
17. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Julius Francis (18.04.1998)
18. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Dicky Ryan (02.05.1998)
19. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Jose Ribalta (05.06.1998)
20. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Ricardo Kennedy (11.08.1998)
21. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Mario Schiesser (24.10.1998)
22. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Francesco Spinelli (05.12.1998)
23. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Ismael John Youla (20.02.1999)
24. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Herbie Hide (25.06.1999)
25. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Ed Mahone (09.10.1999)
26. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Obed Sullivan (11.12.1999)
27. Vitali Klitschko RTD 10 Chris Byrd (01.04.2000)
28. Vitali Klitschko W 12 Timo Hoffmann (25.11.2000)
29. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Orlin Norris (27.01.2001)
30. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Ross Puritty (08.12.2001)
31. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Vaughn Bean (08.02.2002)
32. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Larry Donald (23.11.2002)
33. Vitali Klitschko VTKO 6 Lennox Lewis (21.06.2003)
34. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Kirk Johnson (06.12.2003)
35. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Corrie Sanders (24.04.2004)
36. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Danny Williams (11.12.2004)
37. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Sam Peter (11.10.2008)
38. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Juan Carlos Gomez (21.03.200

[JLUVBABY]

All of Vitali's first 38 fights can be found here:

http://www.ex.ua/view/134824

01. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Tony Bradham (06.11.1996)
02. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Frantisek Sumina (30.11.1996)
03. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Brian Lee Sargent (21.12.1996 )
04. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Mike Acklie (25.01.1997)
05. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Troy Roberts (22.02.1997)
06. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Calvin Jones (08.03.1997)
07. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Derrick Roddy (12.04.1997)
08. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Cleveland Woods (10.05.1997)
09. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Jimmy Haynes (14.06.1997)
10. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Will Hinton (04.10.1997)
11. Vitali Klitschko KO 6 Gilberto Williamson (08.11.1997)
12. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Anthony Willis (20.12.1997)
13. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Marcus Rhode (17.01.1998)
14. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Alben Belinski (30.01.1998)
15. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Louis Monaco (07.03.1998)
16. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Levi Billups (20.03.1998)
17. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Julius Francis (18.04.1998)
18. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Dicky Ryan (02.05.1998)
19. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Jose Ribalta (05.06.1998)
20. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Ricardo Kennedy (11.08.1998)
21. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Mario Schiesser (24.10.1998)
22. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Francesco Spinelli (05.12.1998)
23. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Ismael John Youla (20.02.1999)
24. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Herbie Hide (25.06.1999)
25. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Ed Mahone (09.10.1999)
26. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Obed Sullivan (11.12.1999)
27. Vitali Klitschko RTD 10 Chris Byrd (01.04.2000)
28. Vitali Klitschko W 12 Timo Hoffmann (25.11.2000)
29. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Orlin Norris (27.01.2001)
30. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Ross Puritty (08.12.2001)
31. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Vaughn Bean (08.02.2002)
32. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Larry Donald (23.11.2002)
33. Vitali Klitschko VTKO 6 Lennox Lewis (21.06.2003)
34. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Kirk Johnson (06.12.2003)
35. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Corrie Sanders (24.04.2004)
36. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Danny Williams (11.12.2004)
37. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Sam Peter (11.10.2008)
38. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Juan Carlos Gomez (21.03.200

ok... now tell me who stands out in this list of fighters?... the named fighters he beat are all very well past their primes... i give him a pass with byrd cuzz he was beating the hell out of byrd... but man this list of opponents stinks.... lewis being the only real threat out of the list and he lost that one (and ill give him peter and he's questionable)... that aside i give vitali his props but the guy is not a great heavyweight...

[pesticid]

ok... now tell me who stands out in this list of fighters?... the named fighters he beat are all very well past their primes... i give him a pass with byrd cuzz he was beating the hell out of byrd... but man this list of opponents stinks.... lewis being the only real threat out of the list and he lost that one (and ill give him peter and he's questionable)... that aside i give vitali his props but the guy is not a great heavyweight...

Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peter, Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Corry Sanders. Not the best comp, I never said he did. His brother has a much stronger resume but much stronger losses too. Mike Tyson and Marciano's resumes are not so much better either. I don;t know who Joe Louis or Jack Johnson fought and Larry Holmes didn't fight many live bodies. The only guys that did at heavyweight were Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Evander

[gravytrain]

Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peter, Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Corry Sanders. Not the best comp, I never said he did. His brother has a much stronger resume but much stronger losses too. Mike Tyson and Marciano's resumes are not so much better either. I don;t know who Joe Louis or Jack Johnson fought and Larry Holmes didn't fight many live bodies. The only guys that did at heavyweight were Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Evander

Beat Jersey Joe well past his prime, Schmeling, Max Baer, and Jim Braddock. Not to mention that he opened the door for black fighters to fight for the HW title and won the proxy war between the US and Nazi Germany in the ring.

The funny thing about the Klits and Louis is they're in a similar situation, Louis just took advantage of that situation. Expectations have changed but generally speaking their situation is practically identical. Louis fought in a relatively weak era and the popularity of the division rested on his shoulders, he brought the division back from the ashes after Dempsey retired. The Klits also fight in a weak era and for the division to reclaim former glory it's all on them. The difference being that Louis scored Tyson like kayos for that time period and beat Sharkey worse than Dempsey did, the Klits didn't clean up the fighters from the previous era and are miles away from being entertaining by today's standards.

The opportunity is available to them and I can tell you right now no one would be talking about the HW division being dead if Wlad and Vitali were doing what they were capable of and getting guys out within two rounds.