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> Mike Tyson vs. Wlad Klitschko
JLUVBABY
post Jul 16 2011, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 06:38 PM) *
I guess for me the most important distinction between our views is that I don't think that prison/divorce/partying/losing Cus were the main cause of Tyson's 1990s spiral. I tend to give more credit to Holyfield, who would have beaten every fighter Tyson beat and who was easily the best and most prime fighter Tyson ever faced (Lewis was older than Tyson when they met). I really think Tyson's downfall was the psychological trauma Holyfield gave him because it shattered Tyson's self image as baddest man on earth. And I think that would have happened if Tyson had faced Holyfield or Lewis or a prime Klit. And the reason I do is because Tyson's style was fueled, more than any other fighter I've ever seen, on sheer confidence.

And I just think that as exciting as he was, Tyson wasn't invincible even in his prime. And the fighters you mentioned above were not on Klit's level, and I don't think you would argue that they were. Tyson's shortfalls were that he never had a plan B (my very favorite thing about him) and even if he did, he wasn't a good enough fighter to overcome Klit's massive advantages. That's just my opinion.


here is the key to tysons demise salvador... and like i said before you have to go back to the night he ko'd m. spinks... if its on youtube youtube the post fight press conference where mike tyson all but retired from the ring... the guy was done then... king fell into a huge laughter as to drown out what tyson was saying and quickly took the mic and finished the presser for mike... mike was going into the speech as to say that would be his last fight... mike wanted to make things work with robin givens at that time and was willing to give up boxing to make that happen as he really loved that gold digger... well this is also around the time, well not soon after, that rooney gets the axe and cayton was actually served papers the night of the spinks fight advising him of his non part in team tyson, and king starts his easy fights for tyson... all the extra turmoil in his life just added to a guy who's love for the sport was gone then and that was in 1988... i would say the fights he won after that spinks fight is actually pretty amazing considering he didnt really give too much a damn about his career after that... everything after spinks was for the paychecks... only fight i think he got up for was ruddock and that was cuzz he had a real dislike for the guy...

and for the record tyson post prison was not prime tyson so the holyfield and lewis fights you keep going back to are not valid arguments...
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Jul 16 2011, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 16 2011, 11:07 PM) *
here is the key to tysons demise salvador... and like i said before you have to go back to the night he ko'd m. spinks... if its on youtube youtube the post fight press conference where mike tyson all but retired from the ring... the guy was done then... king fell into a huge laughter as to drown out what tyson was saying and quickly took the mic and finished the presser for mike... mike was going into the speech as to say that would be his last fight... mike wanted to make things work with robin givens at that time and was willing to give up boxing to make that happen as he really loved that gold digger... well this is also around the time, well not soon after, that rooney gets the axe and cayton was actually served papers the night of the spinks fight advising him of his non part in team tyson, and king starts his easy fights for tyson... all the extra turmoil in his life just added to a guy who's love for the sport was gone then and that was in 1988... i would say the fights he won after that spinks fight is actually pretty amazing considering he didnt really give too much a damn about his career after that... everything after spinks was for the paychecks... only fight i think he got up for was ruddock and that was cuzz he had a real dislike for the guy...

and for the record tyson post prison was not prime tyson so the holyfield and lewis fights you keep going back to are not valid arguments...


I concur JLUV. Also if you read a lot of Tyson's interviews in jail the guy really had no inteterst in fighting once he got out. Problem as he got out and found he was broke! For me I can clearly draw the line between prime Tyson and post prime Tyson. The only thing that kept it from being exposed earlier was Mike incredible intimidation factor, that masked his slipping for a long time. But even if you look at the Ruddock fights he had pretty much been reduced to a bomb happy one punch KO artist even then. The combinations and head movement were gone by then and that is pre-jail.
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TheFonz
post Jul 17 2011, 12:06 AM
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Fuck the Jab, 88 Tyson gets to Wlad's mind and RAPES it. KO in 1 round.
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salvador
post Jul 17 2011, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 16 2011, 10:07 PM) *
here is the key to tysons demise salvador... and like i said before you have to go back to the night he ko'd m. spinks... if its on youtube youtube the post fight press conference where mike tyson all but retired from the ring... the guy was done then... king fell into a huge laughter as to drown out what tyson was saying and quickly took the mic and finished the presser for mike... mike was going into the speech as to say that would be his last fight... mike wanted to make things work with robin givens at that time and was willing to give up boxing to make that happen as he really loved that gold digger... well this is also around the time, well not soon after, that rooney gets the axe and cayton was actually served papers the night of the spinks fight advising him of his non part in team tyson, and king starts his easy fights for tyson... all the extra turmoil in his life just added to a guy who's love for the sport was gone then and that was in 1988... i would say the fights he won after that spinks fight is actually pretty amazing considering he didnt really give too much a damn about his career after that... everything after spinks was for the paychecks... only fight i think he got up for was ruddock and that was cuzz he had a real dislike for the guy...

and for the record tyson post prison was not prime tyson so the holyfield and lewis fights you keep going back to are not valid arguments...


I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the honest truth is that this is kind of a tired topic and it looks like we'll always disagree.

That said, I have a hard time believing that Tyson wasn't up for the second Holyfield fight and we saw what happened when he realized that he really couldn't beat him. And THAT realization will, in my mind, always be the beginning of the end for Tyson. He was a fragile psychological mess long before he went to prison. And if Tyson had beaten someone of Holyfield's caliber before prison it would be something to point to, but he didn't so we'll never know if he could have. And then all you're left with is the image of a guy who tore through outmatched opponents who never had a plan B in the event that things weren't going well and a guy who got ko'd the few times he was matched against the best.

Again, I understand your points and you could obviously be right (we'll never know), I just think that being beaten by a better man was the end of the tyrannical Mike Tyson because without that fundamental believe in his ultimate badass self, Tyson wasn't the same fighter.
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blackbelt2003
post Jul 17 2011, 07:04 AM
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I agree that much of what made Tyson so good was his own psyche, and that once he was defeated against Douglas, and to a greater extent, Holyfield it took away a lot from him, there was also a big dilapidation in his skill-set, too.


The pre-Douglas Tyson (arguably pre-Spinks Tyson) was a superb combination puncher, with terrific defence and head movement, an expert in closing the gap on bigger, taller guys and nullifying their defence. After KO'ing Spinks he seemed to believe his own hype, neglecting his training and his technical skills.


After Spinks and his world title days he began to believe he could just take everyone out with one punch. Gone was the head movement, gone was the combination punching and the expertly timed attacks. Instead we saw him following guys around, loading up with one shot. Most of the time he was able to land it, but against Douglas, and later, Holyfield, he couldn't and that reduced him to a big puncher with a 'get them outta there before I fold' mentality.



Would he have fared any better against Holyfield had he carried the same intensity to training and technique in 1996? I think he would, but would have still lost. Holyfield was just a better fighter, but it would have been a bonafide war and a close decision instead of the exciting slaughter it became. Tyson tried to reverse the rot in the second fight, but he'd got too many technical bad habits by then.


I also believe Lennox Lewis would have gotten the better of a prime Tyson 6 or 7 times out of ten, too. A younger Tyson might have been sharp enough to take Lewis early 3 or 4 times out of ten, but Lewis was simply a better fighter.



HOWEVER, I will say that Tyson's championship reign is in danger of being underrated by historians, almost as a backlash against the casual fan's obsession with Tyson being the best ever. Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Tubbs, Biggs, Bruno, Holmes, Spinks, Thomas et al compare favourably with some of Holmes' opponents and DEFINITELY against the current crop. In fact, reading those names back to myself and ignoring the reputation they had for being dull, I'm actually thinking Tyson's reign was more impressive than first thought. With a few decades to reflect, the guys he fought were actually bloody good, not over-matched bums. They would certainly have whipped Eddie Chambers, Ray Austin, Shannon Briggs, Chris Arreola and Sam Peter.

We often hear that Tyson couldn't handle a decent big man with a jab, but he sure handled Holmes and Tucker well, both bigger men with athleticism and a great jab. Both Tucker and 38yr old Holmes would have given the current crop of champs a real serious test if not actually beaten them.


So if we're comparing what evidence there is for Tyson to beat Wlad against Wlad beating Tyson, I would actually suggest there is more to say Tyson would fare better than there is the other way around. Tyson beat lots of big, B+ type guys with a jab and good agility. Wlad didn't beat many guys like Tyson. Haye is maybe the closest in size, speed and power, and it wasn't exactly a devastating win enough to lend credence to Wlad having what it took to beat Iron Mike.


But it's been an interesting debate, anyhoo, and I've enjoyed revisiting Tyson's career, even if we're not gonna change each other minds, Salv!



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salvador
post Jul 17 2011, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 17 2011, 07:04 AM) *
But it's been an interesting debate, anyhoo, and I've enjoyed revisiting Tyson's career, even if we're not gonna change each other minds, Salv!

Black


Yes it has been fun. Tyson was quite something. Nothing else like him in any other sport.
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Method
post Jul 17 2011, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (TheFonz @ Jul 17 2011, 01:06 AM) *
Fuck the Jab, 88 Tyson gets to Wlad's mind and RAPES it. KO in 1 round.

Thank you.

Tyson charges in, and Wlad jumps back and back and back and right through the ropes and on his ass.
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KYLE THEEE SPINK...
post Jul 17 2011, 05:58 PM
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I've always felt this match up is fascinating. I was always hoping they would match Tyson up with Wlad back in 2003 after the Etienne win, but then Corrie Sanders happened. I'm not sure how they match up in their primes. Tyson had great head movement, and he could dodge that jab of Wlad's. However, I actually give the Wlad from 2004 more of a chance than this version. I know that version lost to Brewster, but hear me out here.... Mike Tyson has always been mentally weak. He was a bully and installed fear in his opponents before the opening bell. Wlad had a solid jab, and stood up to opponents. He's 6'6 and 250 pounds, which would have been a huge size advantage over Tyson. People mention how Wlad's chin would hold up, but how would Tyson take right hand bombs from a fighter that big and powerful. Tyson was dropped in sparring by Oliver McCall more than once I believe, and that's with bigger gloves. I'm not saying Tyson had a bad chin, but Wlad does a good job of hiding that right behind the jab. It's the shot that you don't see coming which hurts most. If Wlad stood his ground, and landed solid shots on Tyson, he wouldn't be so eager to come inside. The way he exausted against Brewster was kind of a fluke, and that version of Wlad was a very fluid fighter. Mike could break mentally, and Wlad could stop him late possibly.

I agree that this version of Wlad in 2011 gets stopped early. He goes straight back when anybody pressures him, and doesn't let that right hand even go much anymore. Tyson would land some hellacious shots and drive him through the ropes. It's always been a fascinating match up though, and I wish we could have seen it about 8-10 years ago.
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