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> Who is true boxer of decade (2001-2010)
sduck
post Aug 18 2011, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (Fitz @ Aug 18 2011, 01:32 AM) *
Well I know it's semi included, but title defenses is slightly different. It shows how many times you 'successfully' defended your title, the same title.

Title fights include losses, and fighting for different titles, I think there is a difference between the 2 and the amount of times someone 'successfully' defends there title is a good stat.

For example Bernard Hopkins who has 20 title defenses (I know a lot of these were before 2001) would not get a point on this criteria for his defenses. He is also punished as well because for a long portion, he only held 4 titles because that's the maximum you could have in that one division, and when you're undisputed and defending your title for years and years, you won't pick up 'other' titles. Yet someone like Mayweather can have a fight with Gatti and win a title, pick up a paper title off Judah, beats Hatton at 147, Oscar's 154 title and there he is already in 4.
Someone that jumps up and down in weight picking up paper titles gets rewarded, yet someone who stays put and defends the same title a numerous amount of times gets punished.
Just the way it is, it's designed in a bias way. For example the criteria "Weight Class Transitions(Including fluctuation):". What the hell??? Then right at the end, you put this 'gem':

"If more things were included like "Most Money Earned". Mayweather would be the winner."


Like seriously?

Too many holes if you're using that method to determine the best fighter, and it's designed in a bias way.

Title Defenses is a reasonable reward, but how can you separate your overall title record from title defenses, when your record in title fights include your defenses? Even if Title Defenses were included as a separate reward, Hopkins would still lose because he lost them twice in title defenses.
Record in Title Defenses: 10-0 (Mayweather) 10-0 (Pacquiao) 9-2 (Hopkins) Mayweather/Pacquiao
Pacquiao also won paper titles. Weight Class Transitions, as in moving up in weight, including Fluctuation, like Pacquiao moving up to fight Diaz, then moving up to fight De La Hoya, then moving down to fight Hatton. How is that not an impressive feat?
I think someone earlier mentioned money being a factor, IF Money were included, Mayweather would win. But I didn't include it... You could also include other things like quickest to win a new title, or most dominating performance in a title fight... But I don't think those are "very" rewarding things.
What bias? What are more reasonable rewards that can be decided? I know it may seem like I'm trying to make Mayweather win to you, but it also looks to me you're just trying to make him lose, and trying to make Hopkins win.
The quotes below are more reasons why I don't agree with trying to decide who's Fighter of the Decade just by only giving your opinion on who had the best "caliber of fighters." If you ask me, that's probably the most biased way to do it.

QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 06:39 AM) *
To be honest it was Pac's acheivements below 140 that I think are his most impressive. I mean who gives a fuck if you were considered great at the start of the decade? I'm not sure Floyd was to be honest, all his best fights were still in front of him.

Pac beat the shit out of Barerra when he was a complete unknown, manhandled Morales in away that a supposed beast like Maidana wasn't able to, and yes went wire to wire with JMM, a guy that Barerra nor Morales had taken on. Make no mistake JMM is a BEAST at those weights and going 2 close fights to him is a pretty good accomplishment. In fact I think a prime JMM is a helluva lot more of a handful than any of the fighters Floyd faced at a lighter weight and yes in my opinion I'd include JLC.

At the higher weights Floyd fought Zab, (Baldy's scraps), DLH, (Bernards scraps), Mosley (Cotto's scraps), JMM (Pac's scraps) and Baldy the feather duster seller from Argentina. Oh and I forgot Hatton the undefeated bruiser from Manchester. Really not a stunning resume.

QUOTE (riddick @ Aug 18 2011, 10:11 AM) *
Listen to me, if Floyd beat Pac... you critics Floyd and you know about it.You guys never give credit to Floyd.But May deserves it.Simply said "i am big hater".

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caneman
post Aug 18 2011, 11:52 AM
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I never really got how FNJ's resume was that impressive, I mean, I do even think his haters will/would knock his skills but has he ever fought anyone you thought might REALLY BEAT HIM? I can't name one wishful thinking or not! Pac and X have both faced guys that I thought they would lose though. And peeps talk about the hatred for FMJ, BUT THAT WAS BY HIS OWN DESIGN and out of the ring bullshit added it for many, bottom line though, FMJ IS A MASTER BOXER, LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM!
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EAlbian
post Aug 18 2011, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (caneman @ Aug 18 2011, 12:52 PM) *
I never really got how FNJ's resume was that impressive, I mean, I do even think his haters will/would knock his skills but has he ever fought anyone you thought might REALLY BEAT HIM? I can't name one wishful thinking or not! Pac and X have both faced guys that I thought they would lose though. And peeps talk about the hatred for FMJ, BUT THAT WAS BY HIS OWN DESIGN and out of the ring bullshit added it for many, bottom line though, FMJ IS A MASTER BOXER, LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM!


Who would you have liked to see him fight, that was at the same weight as him, that you would have chose to beat him? Koysta Tzyu @140, Stevie Johnston @135, Cotto/Margarito/Williams @147? I cant think of any fighter that i would have chosen over Floyd, think those fights maybe close but none that i see as a clear pick or would feel safe betting on
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Aug 18 2011, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 18 2011, 09:30 AM) *
You make it seem like Judah was a nobody, he was the unified undisputed ww champ who happen to lose to Baldomir. DLH was no middleweight, we all know that. He was still effective @154(some say his best weight). Mosley had just demolished the man who took Cotto's heart. JMM(is nobody's scraps) was as good as he is today and coming off a great fight with Diaz. Baldomir was the unified ww champ, he was #1 at the weight, how can you knock him for fighting him? I'm not saying Mayweather has the best resume but its still legit, you give the man 0 credit. is it just because you expect him to dominate all those fights?


He just happened to lose? Haha see the problem with yor logic is there were many fights for Floyd to take north of 140 and he always used to dimiss them by saying "oh look this guy has 3 losses on his record why should I bother fighting him?" He dismissed Mosley earlier when Shane was closer to his prime by saying that, dismissed Williams after he LOST to Quintana, dismissed Margarito for the same reason. I'm not saying he would lose to those guys but if that is your logic how can he justify fighting a guy (Judah) that came straight off a loss?

Also if you are a half decent fighter with potentially the biggest fight of your life coming up you don't 'happen to lose to Bladomir.' It sorta sums Zab up perfectly dont you think?

The reason I bring up scraps is Pac is constantly hammered for fighting guys that have recently been beaten. Well doesn't Mayweather do the same? The only undefeated guy he fought in recent times was Hatton. See that's my point, the whole Manny fights guys with recent losses can be used on Floyd too.

Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.


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EAlbian
post Aug 18 2011, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 05:07 PM) *
He just happened to lose? Haha see the problem with yor logic is there were many fights for Floyd to take north of 140 and he always used to dimiss them by saying "oh look this guy has 3 losses on his record why should I bother fighting him?" He dismissed Mosley earlier when Shane was closer to his prime by saying that, dismissed Williams after he LOST to Quintana, dismissed Margarito for the same reason. I'm not saying he would lose to those guys but if that is your logic how can he justify fighting a guy (Judah) that came straight off a loss?

Also if you are a half decent fighter with potentially the biggest fight of your life coming up you don't 'happen to lose to Bladomir.' It sorta sums Zab up perfectly dont you think?

The reason I bring up scraps is Pac is constantly hammered for fighting guys that have recently been beaten. Well doesn't Mayweather do the same? The only undefeated guy he fought in recent times was Hatton. See that's my point, the whole Manny fights guys with recent losses can be used on Floyd too.

Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.


Yea Judah didn't train hard for that fight, the Judah that fought Mayweather probably would have beaten Baldomir. The Judah vs Mayweather fight was signed before the Judah v Baldomir fight. It was Bob Arum that made that decision. Mosley didn't want Floyd when he was closer to his prime. They were @130 and 135 both undefeated and Mosley went after DLH(no knock for that). Mayweather wanted him after the second Vargas fight but Mosley said he had a tooth ache(he was fighting @154 after the Forrest fight and Floyd was @135). Baldomir was worth more than Margarito and was the lineal champion(plus Arum owed Floyd 5mill from the Judah fight, why would he fight an Arum fighter?). Williams wasnt worth any money and Floyd was retired in 08 after that Hatton win, no reason to fight williams.

Besides Judah who has Mayweather fought that was coming off a big loss?? Its not about fighting an undefeated guy(undefeated a lot of the times means untested) its about fighting a guy coming off an impressive fight.

DLH got hit a lot by Forbes. cotto wasn't impressive beating Clottey? Clottey just lost. Margarito was coming in off a garbage win against Robert Garcia(and suspended for a year). Hatton was the closest thing to looking impressive in his previous fight(win over feather fisted malinaggi) but never looked the same after Floyd(Lazcano almost took his head off). Mosley looked bad against Mora. JMM is the best opponent Manny has fought imo since himself 3.5 years ago.

Baldomir was coming off his biggest win in Judah( and a lot of people were saying he was way to big for Mayweather) DLH looked great disposing of Mayorga. Hatton destroyed JLC. JMM was p4p #2 and coming off an exciting win over Diaz(many picked him to lose) and Mosley had destroyed Margarito(although he was on the bench for a min after the Berto fight fell through).
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Aug 18 2011, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 18 2011, 04:54 PM) *
Yea Judah didn't train hard for that fight, the Judah that fought Mayweather probably would have beaten Baldomir. The Judah vs Mayweather fight was signed before the Judah v Baldomir fight. It was Bob Arum that made that decision. Mosley didn't want Floyd when he was closer to his prime. They were @130 and 135 both undefeated and Mosley went after DLH(no knock for that). Mayweather wanted him after the second Vargas fight but Mosley said he had a tooth ache(he was fighting @154 after the Forrest fight and Floyd was @135). Baldomir was worth more than Margarito and was the lineal champion(plus Arum owed Floyd 5mill from the Judah fight, why would he fight an Arum fighter?). Williams wasnt worth any money and Floyd was retired in 08 after that Hatton win, no reason to fight williams.

Besides Judah who has Mayweather fought that was coming off a big loss?? Its not about fighting an undefeated guy(undefeated a lot of the times means untested) its about fighting a guy coming off an impressive fight.

DLH got hit a lot by Forbes. cotto wasn't impressive beating Clottey? Clottey just lost. Margarito was coming in off a garbage win against Robert Garcia(and suspended for a year). Hatton was the closest thing to looking impressive in his previous fight(win over feather fisted malinaggi) but never looked the same after Floyd(Lazcano almost took his head off). Mosley looked bad against Mora. JMM is the best opponent Manny has fought imo since himself 3.5 years ago.

Baldomir was coming off his biggest win in Judah( and a lot of people were saying he was way to big for Mayweather) DLH looked great disposing of Mayorga. Hatton destroyed JLC. JMM was p4p #2 and coming off an exciting win over Diaz(many picked him to lose) and Mosley had destroyed Margarito(although he was on the bench for a min after the Berto fight fell through).



You know I could refute every single one of these points. I really could, it wouldn't be hard. But I'm tired. As has been discussed in the 'old guard' thread it seems like there is a number of posters who only want to discuss the greatness of Floyd. I mean Haz has just started another absolutely ridiculous fucken thread about the same done-to-death topic of Pac/Martinez. I was half tempted to go and post in there but what's the point? The guys clueless and as Hype says if you're not interested don't post.

Lloyd, Steve, Gravy etc I really think it's best just to boycott these kind of threads, there is no getting through to them and I guess if we don't take the bait then they'll just be reduced to babbling with each other. As I say leave that stupid Haz thread alone and we'll see how long it lasts.

P.S Just a bit of evidence, you note that Hatton was coming off 'destroying' JLC. Was that the same JLC that was completely shot as a fighter and ready for the glue factory?

As for Mosley he said BEFORE the second Vargas fight that that would be the last time he was fighting that year as he would be taking time off to spend with his family. As I said that was BEFORE the toothache interview which was post fight. Get your facts straight. Again I could go on and on and on with the other points but what's the point?
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EAlbian
post Aug 18 2011, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 06:23 PM) *
You know I could refute every single one of these points. I really could, it wouldn't be hard. But I'm tired. As has been discussed in the 'old guard' thread it seems like there is a number of posters who only want to discuss the greatness of Floyd. I mean Haz has just started another absolutely ridiculous fucken thread about the same done-to-death topic of Pac/Martinez. I was half tempted to go and post in there but what's the point? The guys clueless and as Hype says if you're not interested don't post.

Lloyd, Steve, Gravy etc I really think it's best just to boycott these kind of threads, there is no getting through to them and I guess if we don't take the bait then they'll just be reduced to babbling with each other. As I say leave that stupid Haz thread alone and we'll see how long it lasts.

P.S Just a bit of evidence, you note that Hatton was coming off 'destroying' JLC. Was that the same JLC that was completely shot as a fighter and ready for the glue factory?

As for Mosley he said BEFORE the second Vargas fight that that would be the last time he was fighting that year as he would be taking time off to spend with his family. As I said that was BEFORE the toothache interview which was post fight. Get your facts straight. Again I could go on and on and on with the other points but what's the point?


I'm not saying Floyd is the greatest fighter, I'm saying the guy deserves a little credit. I totally agree with you that JLC was shot, doesn't change the fact he destroyed him. JLC should have lost to Herman Ngoudjo. I understand that Mosley said he was taking time off. when was Floyd suppose to fight him them, because I'm lost.

I don't consider myself one of these guys who's constantly talking about Mayweather, the topic was brought up. i put my input on it and you refuted me. It's all opinion and doesn't even matter, i was jst having a little back and forth with you.
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The Ollie Reed F...
post Aug 18 2011, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 18 2011, 05:32 PM) *
I'm not saying Floyd is the greatest fighter, I'm saying the guy deserves a little credit. I totally agree with you that JLC was shot, doesn't change the fact he destroyed him. JLC should have lost to Herman Ngoudjo. I understand that Mosley said he was taking time off. when was Floyd suppose to fight him them, because I'm lost.

I don't consider myself one of these guys who's constantly talking about Mayweather, the topic was brought up. i put my input on it and you refuted me. It's all opinion and doesn't even matter, i was jst having a little back and forth with you.


No I can see by when you joined you're not definately part of the crowd, and you're a good poster, it would be nice to se you post a little more often and not just Floyd related. It's probably just the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm a bit like Steve when he posted up the old guard thread, just tired of talking about the same old thing. I mean Floyd has a fight with Ortiz coming up and Manny will soon be taking on his nemisis JMM although at a weight JMM is not probably good at. However I think JMM knows Manny well enough that this could be a good fight. Who knows but it could be interesting.

I wish there were more threads about these fights without cross contaminating the 2. I would like to hear more on people's thoughts about how Hopkins has already begun to mind fuck Dawson, what is Pavlik gonna do next? Will Mares win the rematch without throwing every second shot to the nuts?

Anyhoo I'll just avoid these kind of threads from now on and let Haz and his crew go nuts.
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EAlbian
post Aug 18 2011, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 06:44 PM) *
No I can see by when you joined you're not definately part of the crowd, and you're a good poster, it would be nice to se you post a little more often and not just Floyd related. It's probably just the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm a bit like Steve when he posted up the old guard thread, just tired of talking about the same old thing. I mean Floyd has a fight with Ortiz coming up and Manny will soon be taking on his nemisis JMM although at a weight JMM is not probably good at. However I think JMM knows Manny well enough that this could be a good fight. Who knows but it could be interesting.

I wish there were more threads about these fights without cross contaminating the 2. I would like to hear more on people's thoughts about how Hopkins has already begun to mind fuck Dawson, what is Pavlik gonna do next? Will Mares win the rematch without throwing every second shot to the nuts?

Anyhoo I'll just avoid these kind of threads from now on and let Haz and his crew go nuts.


Those are all good topics. Haha, i would love to post more but i gotta work sometime. I think the real problem is that a lot of the new guys post the majority of the topics and it baits you in because some of it is so ridiculous and it turns into what this is. The "old guard" and quality posters need to make more threads and ignore the retreads, maybe that's the solution.
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lloyd mayflower
post Aug 18 2011, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 11:23 PM) *
Lloyd, Steve, Gravy etc I really think it's best just to boycott these kind of threads, there is no getting through to them and I guess if we don't take the bait then they'll just be reduced to babbling with each other. As I say leave that stupid Haz thread alone and we'll see how long it lasts.



QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 18 2011, 11:44 PM) *
Anyhoo I'll just avoid these kind of threads from now on and let Haz and his crew go nuts.


You're probably right mate, Haz will eventually turn on all the rest of them anyway, and fail to realise the hypocrisy in his posts when he's calling them all out for a fist fight because they are all keyboard gangsters.

They are the Floyd Mayweather division of the Jehovahs witness movement. Come knockin at your door and try desperately to force their opinion on you. Best ignored.
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