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> Ortiz's future after the fight
Allmenjoi8
post Aug 22 2011, 08:42 PM
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If Vicious Victor Ortiz wins the fight on September 17th it will be sports biggest upsets ever. He will no doubt be the top guy for a VERY long time. Victor will make his own rules and be a money fight for anyone who wants to fight him. He could pick to fight Khan or Pac, hell even another rematch with Marcos M. His future will be in his own hands. But if he loses then what? Will his stock go down or will Khan want to fight him or Pac? Will he get the big names fights? Everyone knows that if May loses that Pac fight is down the toilet and he can just retire because no one will care to see him fight. That 0 is keeping people interested. But Ortiz is young, how will he keep people interested in seeing him fight if he loses to May?
Depending on how he loses (if he does) will determine his future. If he gives May all he can handle then people will respect him, being beaten by May is nothing to cry about. I like Victor, he has a nice story and I like his cockiness. Its appealing and sales tickets. I am pulling for MJ but I have respect for Victor, I just hope the boxing world does too after Sep 17th. Any thoughts?
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BoxingStill#1
post Aug 22 2011, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 22 2011, 10:26 PM) *
...... Mayweather isn't accustomed to punishment, and he'll quit if things get too rough.


What planet are you on dude?.... What makes you remotely think an undefeated fighter who, when he gets in deep water, turns the fight around and breaks down his opponent like no other,.... would quit?

However, Floyed is not unbeatable for sure.

I think Ortiz' future would depend on HOW this fight plays out rather than the actuall outcome.

Here are a couple examples:
1.) Floyed beats him from round 1 to finish weather by decision or knockout = Ortiz losses belt, but not much stock. In fact, even with a loss to Floyed (as expected) he is going to raise notoriety.
2.) Floyed beats him by close decsion = this would be tremendous for Ortiz. If he could lose but look good doing it, it would still put him in postion for a championship fight or the Pac/ Floyed winner.... pending his performance till that point.
3.) Ortiz win by big KO punch at any point in the fight = Sure this would be bad for Floyed's pulling power at the negotiating table, BUT IT STILL WOULDNT DERAIL A PAC FIGHT! Remember Floyed has the draw and even though half of the people tune in just to see this type of ending for him, he would pull the ultimate comeback story and could still sell the Pac fight fairly easy. Ortiz may be known as the guy who knocked out Floyed Mayweather and caused his first loss but it would equal only too Buster and Tyson type of ending.
4.) Ortiz wins by clear decision = shock to the entire boxing community and would be the best way to create stock for himself. Though this would be far stretched to the imagination, it would ultimately be what he needs to accell his star status. Floyed, the boxer out-outboxed by the slugger Ortiz... huge for him and could easily make any fight he would want I think.

In any event of a win for Ortiz, we are looking at the fighter of the year hands down and an even brighter future for the young champion.
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Aug 23 2011, 12:14 AM) *
What planet are you on dude?.... What makes you remotely think an undefeated fighter who, when he gets in deep water, turns the fight around and breaks down his opponent like no other,.... would quit?

However, Floyed is not unbeatable for sure.

I think Ortiz' future would depend on HOW this fight plays out rather than the actuall outcome.

Here are a couple examples:
1.) Floyed beats him from round 1 to finish weather by decision or knockout = Ortiz losses belt, but not much stock. In fact, even with a loss to Floyed (as expected) he is going to raise notoriety.
2.) Floyed beats him by close decsion = this would be tremendous for Ortiz. If he could lose but look good doing it, it would still put him in postion for a championship fight or the Pac/ Floyed winner.... pending his performance till that point.
3.) Ortiz win by big KO punch at any point in the fight = Sure this would be bad for Floyed's pulling power at the negotiating table, BUT IT STILL WOULDNT DERAIL A PAC FIGHT! Remember Floyed has the draw and even though half of the people tune in just to see this type of ending for him, he would pull the ultimate comeback story and could still sell the Pac fight fairly easy. Ortiz may be known as the guy who knocked out Floyed Mayweather and caused his first loss but it would equal only too Buster and Tyson type of ending.
4.) Ortiz wins by clear decision = shock to the entire boxing community and would be the best way to create stock for himself. Though this would be far stretched to the imagination, it would ultimately be what he needs to accell his star status. Floyed, the boxer out-outboxed by the slugger Ortiz... huge for him and could easily make any fight he would want I think.

In any event of a win for Ortiz, we are looking at the fighter of the year hands down and an even brighter future for the young champion.


Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.
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EAlbian
post Aug 23 2011, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 07:32 AM) *
Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.


Floyd was hurt much worse by Corley as well as Mosley, he stayed right in the pocket and fought. Emanuel Agustus gave him a rough fight, he stayed right in there and slugged it out and stopped him. Floyd is no coward, not to say that if he had to move to survive a rough moment he wouldn't. The guy is one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen, he does what he needs to win. He's never quit, the guy broke his hand took a knee and won the fight with one hand. Obviously you need to spend a little youtube time revisiting the guys career, at least boxrec time to realize he's 42-0 with no losses, obviously he's never quit. Supposedly he tore his rotator cuff and still moved up and fought Castillo, had a bad performance and immediately rematched him.

No need to ride dick but at least give the guy his just due
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 12:04 PM) *
Floyd was hurt much worse by Corley as well as Mosley, he stayed right in the pocket and fought. Emanuel Agustus gave him a rough fight, he stayed right in there and slugged it out and stopped him. Floyd is no coward, not to say that if he had to move to survive a rough moment he wouldn't. The guy is one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen, he does what he needs to win. He's never quit, the guy broke his hand took a knee and won the fight with one hand. Obviously you need to spend a little youtube time revisiting the guys career, at least boxrec time to realize he's 42-0 with no losses, obviously he's never quit. Supposedly he tore his rotator cuff and still moved up and fought Castillo, had a bad performance and immediately rematched him.

No need to ride dick but at least give the guy his just due


He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.
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EAlbian
post Aug 23 2011, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM) *
He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.



Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?
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Eighty88Eight
post Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?


Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.
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EAlbian
post Aug 23 2011, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM) *
Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.


I said he clearly hurt his hand. Didn't say he clearly won the round. The fight wasn't clearly won. I scored it a draw and could make an argument for either guy. I think Floyd won the 12th round, watch it again, Castillo threw punches but they were all arm punches and nothing landed cleanly. Mayweather landed the cleaner punches. I thought Compu-box did a terrible job in this fight(its just a guy clicking a button) and didn't see a lot of Castillo's punches landing
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- Allmenjoi8   Ortiz's future after the fight   Aug 22 2011, 08:42 PM
- - AussieLad   I thought facing Floyd was a pretty foolish move f...   Aug 22 2011, 08:52 PM
- - Eighty88Eight   It will not be the biggest upset in sports ever. I...   Aug 22 2011, 09:26 PM
- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   I think Victor will have a chance to go away and w...   Aug 22 2011, 09:33 PM
- - Fitz   QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 23 2011, 11:42 AM...   Aug 22 2011, 10:21 PM
- - cshel86   He can be the 3rd "man to beat" at Welte...   Aug 22 2011, 10:23 PM
- - BoxingStill#1   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 22 2011, 10:26...   Aug 22 2011, 11:14 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Aug 23 2011, 12:14...   Aug 23 2011, 07:32 AM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 07:32...   Aug 23 2011, 11:04 AM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 12:04 PM) F...   Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:03...   Aug 23 2011, 12:15 PM
|||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM) W...   Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM
|||- - duwdu   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:37...   Aug 23 2011, 12:53 PM
|||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:37...   Aug 23 2011, 01:24 PM
||- - duwdu   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:03...   Aug 23 2011, 12:22 PM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (duwdu @ Aug 23 2011, 01:22 PM) So ...   Aug 23 2011, 12:50 PM
||- - duwdu   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:50...   Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM
|- - duwdu   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:32...   Aug 23 2011, 11:57 AM
- - mgrover   if he won. mayweather would rematch and woop his a...   Aug 23 2011, 06:00 AM
|- - SmartyBeardo   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 04:00 AM) i...   Aug 23 2011, 06:18 AM
||- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 06:18 ...   Aug 23 2011, 06:29 AM
||- - mgrover   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 12:18 ...   Aug 23 2011, 09:48 AM
||- - jimmygootz   Win: Pacquiao in May '12 Loss: Maidana (finge...   Aug 23 2011, 10:46 AM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 09:48 AM) i...   Aug 23 2011, 11:09 AM
||- - mgrover   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 05:09 PM) h...   Aug 23 2011, 11:18 AM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 11:18 AM) t...   Aug 23 2011, 11:26 AM
||- - mgrover   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 05:26 PM) h...   Aug 23 2011, 01:23 PM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 01:23 PM) h...   Aug 23 2011, 01:31 PM
|- - cshel86   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 07:00 AM) i...   Aug 23 2011, 08:05 AM
- - BoxingStill#1   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 07:18 ...   Aug 23 2011, 06:47 AM
- - cshel86   Like I said earlier, Ortiz can only hope to not lo...   Aug 23 2011, 11:40 AM
- - cshel86   Damn yall were debating this long? Where tha hell ...   Aug 23 2011, 01:32 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 23 2011, 01:32 PM) D...   Aug 23 2011, 01:36 PM
|- - cshel86   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 02:36 PM) h...   Aug 23 2011, 01:40 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 23 2011, 01:40 PM) L...   Aug 23 2011, 01:59 PM
|- - cshel86   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 02:59 PM) h...   Aug 23 2011, 02:06 PM
- - Allmenjoi8   It all comes down to how Ortiz fights. If he fades...   Aug 23 2011, 05:16 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 23 2011, 06:16 PM...   Aug 23 2011, 07:00 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 23 2011,...   Aug 23 2011, 07:05 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:05...   Aug 23 2011, 07:40 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 23 2011,...   Aug 23 2011, 08:53 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:53...   Aug 23 2011, 09:36 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 23 2011,...   Aug 24 2011, 08:51 AM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 24 2011, 09:51...   Aug 24 2011, 10:39 AM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 11:39 AM) H...   Aug 24 2011, 10:54 AM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 24 2011, 11:54...   Aug 24 2011, 11:31 AM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 12:31 PM) y...   Aug 24 2011, 12:31 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 25 2011, 01:51...   Aug 24 2011, 04:29 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 24 2011,...   Aug 25 2011, 12:17 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 25 2011, 01:17...   Aug 25 2011, 12:27 PM
||- - lloyd mayflower   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 06:27 PM) H...   Aug 25 2011, 12:42 PM
|||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Aug 25 2011, 01...   Aug 25 2011, 12:50 PM
|||- - lloyd mayflower   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 06:50 PM) I...   Aug 25 2011, 12:54 PM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 01:27 PM) H...   Aug 25 2011, 12:48 PM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 25 2011, 01:48...   Aug 25 2011, 12:56 PM
||- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 01:56 PM) M...   Aug 25 2011, 12:57 PM
||- - lloyd mayflower   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 06:56 PM) M...   Aug 25 2011, 01:09 PM
||- - EAlbian   QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Aug 25 2011, 02...   Aug 25 2011, 01:52 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 26 2011, 05:17...   Aug 25 2011, 04:03 PM
|- - gravytrain   QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Aug 25 2011, 01...   Aug 25 2011, 04:54 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 25 2011,...   Aug 25 2011, 04:54 PM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 26 2011, 09:54...   Aug 25 2011, 05:09 PM
- - Fitz   Mayweather doesn't seem to like punishment. No...   Aug 23 2011, 05:50 PM
|- - Allmenjoi8   QUOTE (Fitz @ Aug 23 2011, 05:50 PM) Mayw...   Aug 23 2011, 07:15 PM
- - Mean Mister Mustard   Yeah, Ortiz is nothing like JCL. I'm not sugge...   Aug 23 2011, 08:03 PM
- - sduck   Berto has virtually NO defense; Ortiz couldn't...   Aug 23 2011, 09:36 PM
- - SmartyBeardo   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 04:00 AM) i...   Aug 23 2011, 11:00 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 24 2011, 05:00 ...   Aug 24 2011, 05:40 AM
|- - SmartyBeardo   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 24 2011, 03:40 AM) l...   Aug 24 2011, 08:54 AM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 24 2011, 02:54 ...   Aug 24 2011, 10:43 AM
|- - SmartyBeardo   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 24 2011, 08:43 AM) C...   Aug 24 2011, 01:03 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 24 2011, 07:03 ...   Aug 24 2011, 01:45 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 24 2011, 02:45 PM) f...   Aug 24 2011, 02:21 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 08:21 PM) W...   Aug 24 2011, 02:44 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 24 2011, 03:44 PM) i...   Aug 24 2011, 02:52 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 08:52 PM) n...   Aug 24 2011, 02:56 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 24 2011, 03:56 PM) a...   Aug 24 2011, 03:04 PM
- - D-MARV   If Ortiz wins: Rematch If Ortiz loses: Pacquiao ...   Aug 24 2011, 06:08 AM
|- - The Ollie Reed Fan Club   QUOTE (D-MARV @ Aug 24 2011, 11:08 P...   Aug 24 2011, 06:21 AM
- - Eighty88Eight   Racism? Racoons? Wiggers? Sigh... Like the scienti...   Aug 24 2011, 10:31 AM
- - Allmenjoi8   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 24 2011, 10:31...   Aug 24 2011, 12:17 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 24 2011, 01:17 PM...   Aug 24 2011, 12:34 PM
- - Eighty88Eight   RE: Ortiz's future after the fight   Aug 24 2011, 01:22 PM
- - caneman   I figured this would help some of y'all! ...   Aug 24 2011, 01:48 PM
- - gravytrain   QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 24 2011, 11:54...   Aug 24 2011, 01:49 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 24 2011, 02:49 PM...   Aug 24 2011, 02:15 PM
- - Eighty88Eight   Well, as scientists say, we're ALL nuthuggers....   Aug 24 2011, 03:00 PM
- - mgrover   can't really complain with science.   Aug 24 2011, 03:02 PM
- - mgrover   I don't want to argue this for another few pag...   Aug 24 2011, 03:05 PM
- - Eighty88Eight   you two should shut up and have sex already   Aug 24 2011, 04:28 PM
- - Allmenjoi8   I really feel bad for Ortiz, the thread I made for...   Aug 24 2011, 05:47 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 24 2011, 06:47 PM...   Aug 24 2011, 06:06 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 24 2011, 06:47 PM...   Aug 25 2011, 12:19 PM
- - caneman   QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 06:06 PM) I...   Aug 24 2011, 06:09 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (caneman @ Aug 24 2011, 07:09 PM) I...   Aug 25 2011, 10:19 AM
- - caneman   lolzzzzzzzzz http://www.tmz.com/2011/08/24/floyd...   Aug 25 2011, 12:38 PM
|- - EAlbian   QUOTE (caneman @ Aug 25 2011, 01:38 PM) l...   Aug 25 2011, 12:44 PM
|- - lloyd mayflower   QUOTE (caneman @ Aug 25 2011, 06:38 PM) l...   Aug 25 2011, 12:53 PM
|- - Eighty88Eight   QUOTE (caneman @ Aug 25 2011, 01:38 PM) l...   Aug 25 2011, 12:56 PM
- - lloyd mayflower   Suppose if Ortiz can get his shot after his epic b...   Aug 25 2011, 02:03 PM
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