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> The Numbers Don't Lie, Examining Pacquiao's Meteoric Rise
checkleft
post Nov 4 2011, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 08:51 PM) *
So let's think about this.

Your implication is that defensively, these guys at light welterweight and above aren't quick enough to evade Pacquiao's punches. However, that would be as a result of them having greater mass in their bodies. This in turn implies that they have greater punch resilience than the guys at the lower weights. It takes a greater overall force to inflict damage, due to the greater mass that bigger guys carry.

There is no historical precedent for the way Pacquiao has hurt guys who are naturally bigger than him and have been at those larger weights for years.

When Roy Jones Jr. jumped up to Heavyweight to fight John Ruiz, Ruiz walked through all of Jones' punches. Jones could not hurt him at all. Watch the fight again and even take a close look at Ruiz's face after the fight, even though Jones was peppering him with all kinds of shots.

When Jack Johnson fought Jess Willard, sure, he landed at will and won 26 consecutive rounds, but got outlasted by Willard, who was a bigger guy and could take all the power in Jack's punches and still keep coming forward.

When Floyd went up to lightweight, both of his fights against Castillo were competitive simply because Floyd was unable to hurt Castillo at all. He landed on so many accurate power punches, but Castillo kept walking through the blows.

I've already shown how at the lower weights, Mayweather and Pacquiao seem to have identical power. From a pure hand speed perspective, they're also very comparable. In fact, if anything, most will agree that Floyd is a hair quicker than Pacquiao.

So we have 2 guys with comparable speed and power at certain weight classes, and one has a naturally larger frame (maximum Pacquiao has ever weighed is 145.75 lbs and max Floyd has weighed is 150 lbs), and somehow, Pacquiao has more stopping power against bigger guys ?

Something simply does not add up.


See this is actually pretty simple to explain.
When your in the ring sitting on punches makes you set your feet and reduces your chances of stepping out of the way of on coming punches in time.
This will take uss back to the competition they face.
Manny so far at bigger weights has been faced with opponents who with their respective skill sets give him the luxury of sitting on his punches and still being able to move out of the way.
Not that he doesn't have fantastic power and footwork.
Mayweather being a defensive fighter does not plant his feet, shooting punches from his shoulders rather than following through to increase speed.
This helps him weave duck and step away from danger.

When I first sparred I tried to sit on everything, but when the pocket got dangerous it took too long to step out. So you have to be careful with who you choose to sit on them with.
It's all math and percentages outside the ring, but in the ring it mostly has to do with technique your opposition and your/their strengths and weaknesses.
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MaxPayne
post Nov 4 2011, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (Hops @ Nov 4 2011, 10:20 PM) *
So, based on this available info, when do you think Pacquaio started using PED's? And let's put you answer on record.


If steroids were in fact involved, I would say that he started cycling around the time of the second Marquez fight, given the weight gain and performances we saw in 2008.
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mgrover
post Nov 5 2011, 05:05 AM
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I doubt its peds, just cherry picking fighters, mmmm i could eat some cherries right now
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jlupi
post Nov 5 2011, 08:22 AM
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LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diaz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! >>>>>

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
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caneman
post Nov 5 2011, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (jlupi @ Nov 5 2011, 08:22 AM) *
LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diaz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! >>>>>

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Meaning? lol
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gbh32001
post Nov 5 2011, 09:45 AM
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$1M question, with or without PED will FMJ fight Pacquiao? I don't think so. Floyd is a businessman, he will not fight a man whom he is uncertain of defeating him.
How in the hell he accepted JMM as a ligitimate contender?Because JMM called him out?Hatton?Floyd can fight at 154 and yet he is lurking at 126-147 for a prey.
I bet this little fella is Ivan calderon. And the latest news now is, the "Winner Takes All Challenge".
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Cheesey1
post Nov 5 2011, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 05:48 PM) *
In conclusion, 3 key points:

Manny Pacquiao jumped 3 weight classes in 9 months, a total gain that took Floyd Mayweather 4 years.

Following the path from Super Featherweight to Light Middleweight, Manny Pacquiao has seen little drop off in his overall stopping power (factoring in the Margarito instance). Floyd Mayweather has seen a significant drop in stopping power of more than 30% when fighting above Super Featherweight. Consider once again that in the lower weights, we have shown that the men exhibited almost equal power.

Examining bouts with common opponents, Pacquiao emphatically stopped or dominated opponents who Floyd laboriously broke down or did not hurt during his bouts with them.

In the movie “New Jack City”, Nino Brown famously states, “Money talks, bullshit runs a marathon.”

The masses pour adulation upon a man who transcends a sport, but beyond the beams of light emanating from the living legend’s meteoric rise, there may be patches of darkness that only the discerning eye can perceive.

What Nino Brown meant to say, is that the numbers never lie.

(All data has been sourced from www.boxrec.com.)

Interesting. Good post.
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MaxPayne
post Nov 5 2011, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (gbh32001 @ Nov 5 2011, 10:45 AM) *
$1M question, with or without PED will FMJ fight Pacquiao? I don't think so. Floyd is a businessman, he will not fight a man whom he is uncertain of defeating him.
How in the hell he accepted JMM as a ligitimate contender?Because JMM called him out?Hatton?Floyd can fight at 154 and yet he is lurking at 126-147 for a prey.
I bet this little fella is Ivan calderon. And the latest news now is, the "Winner Takes All Challenge".


I believe this topic has been covered several times in the Manny Pacquiao - Floyd Mayweather Negotiations thread, but I'll give you a quick synopsis:

Long story short, Top Rank Promotions and Bob Arum have no desire to have their most marketable asset lose significant value while there is still so much potential to generate revenue. All you have to do is think about this strictly as a business.

The amount of revenue that is generated from in-house PPV events is so high that it presents a low risk - very high reward alternative to to the high risk - very high reward scenario that comes with a Floyd fight.

Top Rank does not do business with any other promotions. Pacquiao fought Cotto (in-house), Margarito (in-house), Mosley (broke his contract with Golden Boy) and Juan Manuel Marquez (one time Golden Boy, now Top Rank).

Co-promotion means that you split all revenue from the events, and Top Rank wants no part of filling the coffers of Golden Boy Promotions or Floyd Mayweather.

All you have to do is follow the money trail.

Mayweather by all accounts has accepted Pacquiao's demands: 8 oz. gloves, ring size, giving Pacquiao second entrance to the ring and a 50-50 split of revenues, even though Mayweather is by far the bigger PPV attraction, going by total buys and live gate revenue.

Before you bring up the fact that the De La Hoya fight skews those numbers, I will remind you that De La Hoya never even got close to the 2 MM buy mark with anyone else, let alone the 2.45 MM buy figure that achieved. Mayweather was equally responsible for the numbers that fight did. When Oscar fought Trinidad, and they were both unbeaten at the time, that fight generated 1.4 MM buys, to put things into perspective.

He also accepted a clause that would cause him to pay a $10 MM penalty per pound that he came in over the 147 lbs. welterweight limit.

Out of all of this, Mayweather has simply asked for Olympic style random blood and urine testing, administered by USADA. Arum and Pacquiao have balked at these suggestions and have broken off negotiations.

We hear different reasons, from fear of needles (this coming from a fighter who has multiple tattoos), possibly being weakened if a syringe of blood is taken on the day of the fight (medically impossible) and of course superstitions/religious barriers to giving blood so close to a contest. I don't know about Filipino cultural superstitions, but I'd be happy if someone could open up a Bible and find out where it says that one is to not give blood before engaging in combat.

Until all other revenue generators have been exhausted for Pacquiao (Bradley, Rios, possibly second fight against Cotto at 150), we will not see Top Rank actually be serious in negotiating with the Mayweather camp.

Arum lost his biggest revenue generator when Floyd Mayweather walked away from Top Rank and wanted to promote his own fights. He won't lose his next biggest attraction to the same guy who gave his business a hit in the first place. Not until he has done 2 things:

1) Financially squeezed every dollar out of Pacquiao's career from fights with others.

2) Secured successors to Pacquiao's place as Top Rank's most marketable asset.

When those 2 conditions have been met, the fight will be made.

Floyd believes he can beat Pacquiao, Vegas agrees with him and people who understand boxing understand why that's the case.

Floyd has fought guys who box, guys who swarm, guys who try to bully, both southpaw and orthodox. He's beaten them all and done so convincingly.

Pacquiao, while a brilliant offensive fighter, is limited from a technical standpoint. I can even tell you how he's going to get beaten: he'll keep throwing that flicking jab out there as a set up for his straight left hand, except it won't even get to that point.

Floyd will time that jab and come over it with the straight right hand and then move out of the way. When it gets close/inside, he'll open up with left hooks and continue moving out of the way. Boxing 101.

One last point. Floyd is barely a welterweight, given that he walks around at 150 lbs. and fights at 147 lbs. Sure, he can fight guys at 154 lbs., but he'll weigh in at least 4 - 5 pounds under the light middleweight limit.

Floyd coming off of a 2 year layoff, fighting the Number 2 rated Pound for Pound boxer in the world at the time, Juan Manuel Marquez was actually impressive. It's not like he was taking on some club fighter. He was fighting a guy who outboxed and had very close fights with the guy who people rated Number 1.

Ricky Hatton at the time of their fight, was undefeated and seen as a great match-up for Mayweather, given that he was a punishing body puncher. It made for a great event, because how often do you get to see 2 undefeated fighters put their records on the line ? Mayweather beat Hatton at his own game, punishing him inside and strafing him from distance.

At the end of the day, it's about the business aspect of boxing for BOTH Mayweather and Pacquiao. Do you think that Pacquiao has a problem with the fact that he's taking safe fights but earning $30 MM for each of them ?
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Plah
post Nov 5 2011, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 5 2011, 12:23 PM) *
I believe this topic has been covered several times in the Manny Pacquiao - Floyd Mayweather Negotiations thread, but I'll give you a quick synopsis:

Long story short, Top Rank Promotions and Bob Arum have no desire to have their most marketable asset lose significant value while there is still so much potential to generate revenue. All you have to do is think about this strictly as a business.

The amount of revenue that is generated from in-house PPV events is so high that it presents a low risk - very high reward alternative to to the high risk - very high reward scenario that comes with a Floyd fight.

Top Rank does not do business with any other promotions. Pacquiao fought Cotto (in-house), Margarito (in-house), Mosley (broke his contract with Golden Boy) and Juan Manuel Marquez (one time Golden Boy, now Top Rank).

Co-promotion means that you split all revenue from the events, and Top Rank wants no part of filling the coffers of Golden Boy Promotions or Floyd Mayweather.

All you have to do is follow the money trail.

Mayweather by all accounts has accepted Pacquiao's demands: 8 oz. gloves, ring size, giving Pacquiao second entrance to the ring and a 50-50 split of revenues, even though Mayweather is by far the bigger PPV attraction, going by total buys and live gate revenue.

Before you bring up the fact that the De La Hoya fight skews those numbers, I will remind you that De La Hoya never even got close to the 2 MM buy mark with anyone else, let alone the 2.45 MM buy figure that achieved. Mayweather was equally responsible for the numbers that fight did. When Oscar fought Trinidad, and they were both unbeaten at the time, that fight generated 1.4 MM buys, to put things into perspective.

He also accepted a clause that would cause him to pay a $10 MM penalty per pound that he came in over the 147 lbs. welterweight limit.

Out of all of this, Mayweather has simply asked for Olympic style random blood and urine testing, administered by USADA. Arum and Pacquiao have balked at these suggestions and have broken off negotiations.

We hear different reasons, from fear of needles (this coming from a fighter who has multiple tattoos), possibly being weakened if a syringe of blood is taken on the day of the fight (medically impossible) and of course superstitions/religious barriers to giving blood so close to a contest. I don't know about Filipino cultural superstitions, but I'd be happy if someone could open up a Bible and find out where it says that one is to not give blood before engaging in combat.

Until all other revenue generators have been exhausted for Pacquiao (Bradley, Rios, possibly second fight against Cotto at 150), we will not see Top Rank actually be serious in negotiating with the Mayweather camp.

Arum lost his biggest revenue generator when Floyd Mayweather walked away from Top Rank and wanted to promote his own fights. He won't lose his next biggest attraction to the same guy who gave his business a hit in the first place. Not until he has done 2 things:

1) Financially squeezed every dollar out of Pacquiao's career from fights with others.

2) Secured successors to Pacquiao's place as Top Rank's most marketable asset.

When those 2 conditions have been met, the fight will be made.

Floyd believes he can beat Pacquiao, Vegas agrees with him and people who understand boxing understand why that's the case.

Floyd has fought guys who box, guys who swarm, guys who try to bully, both southpaw and orthodox. He's beaten them all and done so convincingly.

Pacquiao, while a brilliant offensive fighter, is limited from a technical standpoint. I can even tell you how he's going to get beaten: he'll keep throwing that flicking jab out there as a set up for his straight left hand, except it won't even get to that point.

Floyd will time that jab and come over it with the straight right hand and then move out of the way. When it gets close/inside, he'll open up with left hooks and continue moving out of the way. Boxing 101.

One last point. Floyd is barely a welterweight, given that he walks around at 150 lbs. and fights at 147 lbs. Sure, he can fight guys at 154 lbs., but he'll weigh in at least 4 - 5 pounds under the light middleweight limit.

Floyd coming off of a 2 year layoff, fighting the Number 2 rated Pound for Pound boxer in the world at the time, Juan Manuel Marquez was actually impressive. It's not like he was taking on some club fighter. He was fighting a guy who outboxed and had very close fights with the guy who people rated Number 1.

Ricky Hatton at the time of their fight, was undefeated and seen as a great match-up for Mayweather, given that he was a punishing body puncher. It made for a great event, because how often do you get to see 2 undefeated fighters put their records on the line ? Mayweather beat Hatton at his own game, punishing him inside and strafing him from distance.

At the end of the day, it's about the business aspect of boxing for BOTH Mayweather and Pacquiao. Do you think that Pacquiao has a problem with the fact that he's taking safe fights but earning $30 MM for each of them ?




+100. But it wont matter how many times you explain to people these points, they wont listen, smh.
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mrchitown
post Nov 5 2011, 08:45 PM
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Very informative post. Very unique way to look @ things between both fighters
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