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> Blood Doping, EPO and High Altitude Training, Right or Wrong
mgrover
post Mar 1 2012, 04:53 PM
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High altitude training and High altitude chamber is legal while Blood Doping and EPO are not, yet they both achieve the same results, is this fair? What'd you think? Personally am not sure, but from what I've heard the results seem identical, so what's wrong with EPO and Blood Doping why are they banned?
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Cshel86
post Mar 1 2012, 05:09 PM
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From your point of view, what's so bad about high altitude training? I want to know before I make an assessment, because I haven't heard any fuss about it from commissions and so forth. I just assumed the fighter would take all risks associated with that type of training.
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mgrover
post Mar 1 2012, 05:25 PM
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it does the same as EPO and Blood doping, and why is that allowed, it creates an uneven playing field. I hate using this example but say Marquez never used High Alt Chambers, would he of been the same fighter against Pacman? He may of faded more down the stretch.
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Cshel86
post Mar 1 2012, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 1 2012, 05:25 PM) *
it does the same as EPO and Blood doping, and why is that allowed, it creates an uneven playing field. I hate using this example but say Marquez never used High Alt Chambers, would he of been the same fighter against Pacman? He may of faded more down the stretch.

Oooooh okay, I was always under the impression that H.A.T. just provides more oxygen to the muscles, since there isn't much oxygen in the air at high altitudes.

Now that I've gone back and read more on it, its clear why you pose the question as to whats the difference between them. It says:
"To compensate for reduction of oxygen in the air, the kidneys secrete more of a hormone called erythropoietin, which causes the body to create more red blood cells."

From what I've also read...erythropoietin is used during blood doping for athletes (which is illegal). Erythopoietin is naturally produced from the kidneys while guys are training at those high altitudes, so I guess it isn't considered a bad thing since it's done naturally. My question is, how would commissions be able to recognize whether or not it's been illegally injected or naturally produced?

Good stuff Grover....
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bnoles4life
post Mar 1 2012, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 1 2012, 06:37 PM) *
Oooooh okay, I was always under the impression that H.A.T. just provides more oxygen to the muscles, since there isn't much oxygen in the air at high altitudes.

Now that I've gone back and read more on it, its clear why you pose the question as to whats the difference between them. It says:
"To compensate for reduction of oxygen in the air, the kidneys secrete more of a hormone called erythropoietin, which causes the body to create more red blood cells."

From what I've also read...erythropoietin is used during blood doping for athletes (which is illegal). Erythopoietin is naturally produced from the kidneys while guys are training at those high altitudes, so I guess it isn't considered a bad thing since it's done naturally. My question is, how would commissions be able to recognize whether or not it's been illegally injected or naturally produced?

Good stuff Grover....


Erythropoesis is a naturally occurring process in every human and it's the ability and rate in which this process occurs is what separates people. Now, the major difference is, H.A.T. forces the body to maximize (or close to it) its natural ability to create add'l oxygenated blood, thereby potentially improving an athlete's VO2 Max. EPO or blood doping, does the exact same thing, but it is manufactured or instigated by a source/product OUTSIDE the body. <------here is your unfair advantage.

Let's think about it this way: The testosterone you naturally produce and synthetic test achieve the same thing. However, when injecting synthetic test (D-bol, Winstrol-V, etc) over a short period of time, gives an unfair advantage b/c it's produced outside your body and you have add'l testosterone (making you bigger, strong, faster and most importantly, allows one to train harder and recover faster). In addition, when cycling on synthetic test, your body often stops producing natural test and relies solely on synthetic (<-----unfair advantage).

Now, is that clear as mud??? LOL.

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mgrover
post Mar 1 2012, 06:09 PM
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Okay outside the body, but blood doping, and I use my own blood. It's like donating it from me to me. It's just a more practical way to train, that's why I don't think EPO and blood doping should be banned, or they should all be banned. Usually people are caught because there testosterone is through the roof, am still not sure how people are caught doping, someone once said to me it is because there White blood count is high?

Maybe am too much of a fair game guy, even at the gym, I see people with protein shakes, and creatine and I think is that any better than steroids, personally am an all natural guy, I used a protein shake once and never really got into it.



This topic stems from this documentary, I can't find the first part, so you'll have to start at the second, but it's really good, even the famous Victor Conte is in there.
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bnoles4life
post Mar 1 2012, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 1 2012, 07:09 PM) *
Okay outside the body, but blood doping, and I use my own blood. It's like donating it from me to me. It's just a more practical way to train, that's why I don't think EPO and blood doping should be banned, or they should all be banned. Usually people are caught because there testosterone is through the roof, am still not sure how people are caught doping, someone once said to me it is because there White blood count is high?

Maybe am too much of a fair game guy, even at the gym, I see people with protein shakes, and creatine and I think is that any better than steroids, personally am an all natural guy, I used a protein shake once and never really got into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QW_L_DrjYM

This topic stems from this documentary, I can't find the first part, so you'll have to start at the second, but it's really good, even the famous Victor Conte is in there.


MGrover....simply put, blood doping is EXTRA blood...extra blood= extra blood cells= more oxygenated blood = unfair advantage.

That was an interesting vid.
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Cshel86
post Mar 1 2012, 06:21 PM
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Okay thanks Noles, its getting to be a bit clearer to me. Like you said, when guys start cycling on it, their body relies on the synthetic, rather than their body naturally producing it. Kinda reminds me of heroin...but that's another story.

Im glad a fighter's name hasn't come up, especially the main guy in question...hope we keep it that way. The video was interesting, but what was even more interesting is that it wasn't embedded after I made that thread in the general discussion forum this morning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nono.gif)

We gotta do better Grover (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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bnoles4life
post Mar 1 2012, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM) *
Okay thanks Noles, its getting to be a bit clearer to me. Like you said, when guys start cycling on it, their body relies on the synthetic, rather than their body naturally producing it. Kinda reminds me of heroin...but that's another story.

Im glad a fighter's name hasn't come up, especially the main guy in question...hope we keep it that way. The video was interesting, but what was even more interesting is that it wasn't embedded after I made that thread in the general discussion forum this morning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nono.gif)

We gotta do better Grover (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)



What's funny is, I kinda agree w/ Grover in that, I'm not bothered by most 'roids/PEDs, w/ the exception of two sports: boxing and track & field (wait....is that 3 sports? LOL). The unfair advantage is immediately impacting and often the cornerstone to the recipient's success.
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Cshel86
post Mar 1 2012, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Mar 1 2012, 06:27 PM) *
What's funny is, I kinda agree w/ Grover in that, I'm not bothered by most 'roids/PEDs, w/ the exception of two sports: boxing and track & field (wait....is that 3 sports? LOL). The unfair advantage is immediately impacting and often the cornerstone to the recipient's success.

Shiiiiit, any contact sport is out of the question for me...especially the likes of football, outside of boxing and MMA. I just dont see how guys are cool with using that stuff when they're paid to beat the other guy to a stupor (if need be).

Imagine if Gatti and Ward were on the juice. We could even go as far as Vasquez/Marquez, where defense was a myth to the both of them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/no2.gif)
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