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> self managed fighters...
daprofessor
post May 1 2012, 08:31 PM
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self managed fighters such as bhop, roy jones and floyd mayweather do not rely on matchmakers and promoters (like pac and toprank) to pick their opposition because they are special talents that are capable of doing that on their own. it's a huge part of their success.

roy had his deal with hbo....and as a result we got to see him dominate over matched opposition for years. guys i never heard of like glenn kelly or the police officer that sold the bottom of his shoes for advertisement...and guys way past their primes like pazienza who had absolutely no business at super middle. he did some amazing things against those no-hopers. then he went up in weight and fought ruiz. prior to that though...he was avoiding his mandatory opponent, antonio tarver. everyone thought tarver would be killed by roy, myself included. tarver had to fight to be the mandatory twice. he knew something we didn't. roy didn't want any part of tarver. tarver called him out at the press conference for jones/ruiz and the world was shocked. the first fight happened and roy squeaked out victory and had a ton of excuses for winning. then the rematch happened. we all remember that.

bhop has been thee master at picking his opposition. he prides himself for "doing it his way" for all of these years. he's beat some great opposition along the way too! his best wins came against guys no one thought he could beat....tarver, pavlik and more recently....pascal. the potential opponent that no one paid attention to was dawson. a lot of fans feel bhop was avoiding dawson....but many more felt it was the right thing to do because after all...he wasn't a draw and dawson lost to pascal. and he looked like crap in his fight prior to hopkins. no way dawson belongs in the ring with bhop. then came the fight at the staples center where i believed bhop faked injury to get out of an inevitable ass whoopin. that theory was proven right imo after this past weekend when bad chad put it on bhop for several rounds in a fight that was more one sided than all of his losses combined.

notice the pattern? fighter picks opponents...he shines. forced to fight an opponent...no so much.

which brings me to floyd mayweather. arguably the most brilliant fighter of his time. he was voted fighter of the year in '98 and then again in '08. that alone is a huge accomplishment. but let's be honest....since his move up from 135....he has been picking and choosing his opposition in the same fashion as rjj and bhop and he's been shining. now....he's been forced to settle for miguel cotto because he has run out of options. on the surface it would appear that he chose miguel...but the honest truth is he didn't have any other options that would pay as much. so now...he's forced into this match that he chose to avoid when he retired after the hatton fight. will the pattern repeat? i think so.

i am now going on record....cotto is going to be the first fighter to beat floyd.

(then next month...when pac faces bradley...he's also going to lose. that doesn't apply here because pac isn't self managed. ) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by daprofessor: May 1 2012, 08:32 PM
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mgrover
post May 1 2012, 08:52 PM
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Do you think if Jones fought target instead of moving up to heavyweight he would of won with his chin intact rather than that KO
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Cshel86
post May 1 2012, 10:21 PM
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ALL of this...just to say that Cotto will be victorious on May 5th...Classic! Good stuff!

I like the breakdown, I really do.

RJJ: You're absolutely right, Jones fought a bunch of unknowns and so forth. It wasn't such a bad thing (in the viewer's mind) because he looked so good doing it. Fighters usually get passes when they defeat unknown/past prime fighters in a "highlight worthy" fashion.

When he ran into Tarver (which Im sure his pride got him into that situation), we saw something different. Like you said, in a way, he had to fight Tarver.

Hopkins: Correct, his biggest wins came against guys that he wasn't supposed to beat. Even when he lost fights, he made sure his opponents didn't "look so great" when their hands were raised in the end.

As for the Dawson fight (as you said), he didn't really have anyone else left to fight at LHW. There weren't huge height, arm length, and weight advantages for Dawson, but his style gave Bernard problems. If Hopkins was avoiding Dawson because of money, gate sales, PPV buys,etc...then he had reason enough to do so. Wouldn't you?

Dude has been on grandfather time for the longest, so I cant blame him for waiting it out. You would think that after all this time, Dawson would have done more to make himself more of an attraction, but he continued to beg for a Hopkins fight and say that "he's scared". Sergio Martinez seems to be having the same problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Mayweather: Im not so sure that I would say he's been picking and choosing opponents after 135, because if memory serves me correctly, he wasn't a free agent until after the Judah fight, which of course was at WW in 2006.

I agree that he's out of opponents at this point, at least until after some of these currently scheduled WW bouts take place. Too bad he didn't have that much time to pick a guy, but hell, that's what step-aside money is for.

I cant even say that he avoided Miguel after he fought Hatton and retired, let's remember that Cotto was THE top fighter at TR, and Floyd was about a year removed from his TR contract that he bought out of, which Im sure fueled the Mayweather/Arum feud.

Think about it, if Floyd cant even do business with Arum now (5 years after the fact), then imagine how touchy that situation would've been back then.

Im with your theory about these fighters though, Cotto could very well be the guy to pull it off. I swear these betting odds are getting wider and wider, which could be a possible of something backwards happening.
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daprofessor
post May 2 2012, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (mgrover @ May 1 2012, 09:52 PM) *
Do you think if Jones fought target instead of moving up to heavyweight he would of won with his chin intact rather than that KO


good question! there's a chance jones wins more convincingly in the first fight and the rematch never happens. problem is...u don't have a specially modified delorean with a flux capacitor and 1.21 jigowatts. so...we're only left to speculate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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daprofessor
post May 2 2012, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 1 2012, 11:21 PM) *
ALL of this...just to say that Cotto will be victorious on May 5th...Classic! Good stuff!

I like the breakdown, I really do.

RJJ: You're absolutely right, Jones fought a bunch of unknowns and so forth. It wasn't such a bad thing (in the viewer's mind) because he looked so good doing it. Fighters usually get passes when they defeat unknown/past prime fighters in a "highlight worthy" fashion.

When he ran into Tarver (which Im sure his pride got him into that situation), we saw something different. Like you said, in a way, he had to fight Tarver.

Hopkins: Correct, his biggest wins came against guys that he wasn't supposed to beat. Even when he lost fights, he made sure his opponents didn't "look so great" when their hands were raised in the end.

As for the Dawson fight (as you said), he didn't really have anyone else left to fight at LHW. There weren't huge height, arm length, and weight advantages for Dawson, but his style gave Bernard problems. If Hopkins was avoiding Dawson because of money, gate sales, PPV buys,etc...then he had reason enough to do so. Wouldn't you?

Dude has been on grandfather time for the longest, so I cant blame him for waiting it out. You would think that after all this time, Dawson would have done more to make himself more of an attraction, but he continued to beg for a Hopkins fight and say that "he's scared". Sergio Martinez seems to be having the same problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Mayweather: Im not so sure that I would say he's been picking and choosing opponents after 135, because if memory serves me correctly, he wasn't a free agent until after the Judah fight, which of course was at WW in 2006.

I agree that he's out of opponents at this point, at least until after some of these currently scheduled WW bouts take place. Too bad he didn't have that much time to pick a guy, but hell, that's what step-aside money is for.

I cant even say that he avoided Miguel after he fought Hatton and retired, let's remember that Cotto was THE top fighter at TR, and Floyd was about a year removed from his TR contract that he bought out of, which Im sure fueled the Mayweather/Arum feud.

Think about it, if Floyd cant even do business with Arum now (5 years after the fact), then imagine how touchy that situation would've been back then.

Im with your theory about these fighters though, Cotto could very well be the guy to pull it off. I swear these betting odds are getting wider and wider, which could be a possible of something backwards happening.


thanks man. i felt i had to make it interesting to be taken seriously. otherwise i'm just tossing out words. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

you're right about mayweather but the theory still stands. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) whatever the circumstances surrounding mayweather not fighting cotto...the fact remains...he has run out of options for big paydays. cotto is being forced on him. the odds makers rarely get it wrong. i'm thinking this may be one of those rare occasions.

cotto has to do some things to make the victory possible. he has to force the fight in spots and make floyd uncomfortable. he has to put money in the bank by landing good shots to the body and shoulders to set up the head shots. he cannot fall into a pattern or stand in front of floyd. if he can do this in the first half of the fight...then victory is his for the taking. if he doesn't establish this early...and often...floyd is going to dominate him.
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mitukczuk
post May 2 2012, 03:17 AM
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Cant say I agree with you Professor. RJJ maybe...but B-Hop ? Floyd out of opposition ? Floyd being FORCED into fighting Cotto? I don't think so. He knows what hes doing.

Don't over-hype Cotto.

This post has been edited by mitukczuk: May 2 2012, 08:16 AM
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Cshel86
post May 2 2012, 08:56 AM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ May 2 2012, 04:17 AM) *
Cant say I agree with you Professor. RJJ maybe...but B-Hop ? Floyd out of opposition ? Floyd being FORCED into fighting Cotto? I don't think so. He knows what hes doing.

Don't over-hype Cotto.

Im about 50/50 with this post, check it out...

Mayweather WAS out of opponents at the time that he signed for this fight, simply because everyone else was tied up. Cotto was coming off of the "biggest win of his career", so Im sure Floyd struck the iron while it was hot.

Honestly, I will make this statement, and Im sure someone can vouch for the fact that Floyd knew he was fighting Cotto months before we even knew about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) True statement...

He picked him after that "big victory", unlike Manny, who picked him after a war with Clottey, a not so impressive TKO over Jennings, and months before that...a nasty beatdown at the hands Plasterito. In the present case, Cotto was picked after a decent string of wins, and a BIG revenge fight...same happened when he picked Ortiz.

So, Floyd was forced into a "money fight" with Cotto, who everybody remembers recently beating Margarito. I agree that Floyd's been on pins and needles promoting this fight because he cant completely sell Miguel short, due to the past beatings that he took, ESPECIALLY at the hands of the guy that people are pissing about him fighting (MP).

So again, I agree with the fact that he was out of "marketable opposition" at the time, and he KNEW what he was doing when he picked Cotto, but let's not sell Miguel short either. As we all know, the greats will go down at some point of their career, and an "already overlooked Cotto" may be the one to pull it off. Who knows though...



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Plah
post May 2 2012, 09:04 AM
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I don't see how the fuck Tarver beats Jones had he (Jones) stayed at 168-175 instead of going to HW and moving back down.
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mitukczuk
post May 2 2012, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 2 2012, 08:56 AM) *
Im about 50/50 with this post, check it out...

Mayweather WAS out of opponents at the time that he signed for this fight, simply because everyone else was tied up. Cotto was coming off of the "biggest win of his career", so Im sure Floyd struck the iron while it was hot.

Honestly, I will make this statement, and Im sure someone can vouch for the fact that Floyd knew he was fighting Cotto months before we even knew about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) True statement...

He picked him after that "big victory", unlike Manny, who picked him after a war with Clottey, a not so impressive TKO over Jennings, and months before that...a nasty beatdown at the hands Plasterito. In the present case, Cotto was picked after a decent string of wins, and a BIG revenge fight...same happened when he picked Ortiz.

So, Floyd was forced into a "money fight" with Cotto, who everybody remembers recently beating Margarito. I agree that Floyd's been on pins and needles promoting this fight because he cant completely sell Miguel short, due to the past beatings that he took, ESPECIALLY at the hands of the guy that people are pissing about him fighting (MP).

So again, I agree with the fact that he was out of "marketable opposition" at the time, and he KNEW what he was doing when he picked Cotto, but let's not sell Miguel short either. As we all know, the greats will go down at some point of their career, and an "already overlooked Cotto" may be the one to pull it off. Who knows though...


You got some valid points. I am sure Floyd knew hes going to fight Cotto months before us. Also, I can agree on the fact that Floyd is running out of opponents but on the other hand, can you blame him? He beat almost every marketable fighter of his era (I am not talking about Pacquiao- I don't care) plus it is partially a fault of all the fighters not knowing how to make themselves viable for a shot and hoping that everything will fall into their lap -> Khan bs. Floyd is about money, if you don't make numbers, well..gtfo. Of course there are fighters that he should have fought or should fight, but again...EVERY fighter has this situation going. I am sure as hell you would find a name that's missing on Ali's resume, or on SRL's.

You know where I stand in this whole Mayweather/Cotto discussion. I can't wait to already see the result of this fight and finally have a meaningful conversation about it. I am tired of theory-crafting surrounding this fight. Just don't over-hype and overtheorize, guys. We will soon know what's what.
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Cshel86
post May 2 2012, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ May 2 2012, 11:05 AM) *
You got some valid points. I am sure Floyd knew hes going to fight Cotto months before us. Also, I can agree on the fact that Floyd is running out of opponents but on the other hand, can you blame him? He beat almost every marketable fighter of his era (I am not talking about Pacquiao- I don't care) plus it is partially a fault of all the fighters not knowing how to make themselves viable for a shot and hoping that everything will fall into their lap -> Khan bs. Floyd is about money, if you don't make numbers, well..gtfo. Of course there are fighters that he should have fought or should fight, but again...EVERY fighter has this situation going. I am sure as hell you would find a name that's missing on Ali's resume, or on SRL's.

You know where I stand in this whole Mayweather/Cotto discussion. I can't wait to already see the result of this fight and finally have a meaningful conversation about it. I am tired of theory-crafting surrounding this fight. Just don't over-hype and overtheorize, guys. We will soon know what's what.

Again, good stuff. Some people have to realize that getting that big fight and winning it (Floyd vs Oscar), puts a fighter in a different position, especially one like Mayweather who wasn't such a huge draw before the Oscar fight. Now, beating Oscar gave him a big boost, so going back and fighting like P. Willy and few other lesser known guys back then, wouldn't have done much.

To think about it, fighting those guys before the Oscar fight may have gotten him more credit, but Im not sure if it would've pointed him in the direction of a De La Hoya fight. I certainly think that a Khan/Mayweather fight would've done some decent numbers, due to Khan's marketability, but he blew the Peterson fight.

I wouldn't say that me and Professor are over-hyping Cotto, but guys have given Cotto no chance in this fight. As boxing fans, we should know that ANY guy can be beaten on ANY given day, by ANY given fighter. Sometimes guys look at Floyd's record and what he's done in previous fights, and automatically give him the W.

It's hard to deny his skills, but that "one punch" awaits every fighter, regardless of skills and records. For the biggest upsets we've seen in boxing, all it takes is an overlooked guy with the discipline to execute a gameplan, simple as that.

The same happened with Roy when he stepped into the ring with Tarver both times. Tarver was executing in the first fight, but the second fight was an "execute or bust" affair. Roy was able to fight whoever he wanted over the years because he SO impressive in the ring and was a great trashtalker, but again, a guy like Tarver was the least bit phased by it.

The same goes for Hopkins, though I'd give him more credit for his opposition over the years, especially at MW. He wasn't supposed to pull it off against most of those guys (according to unqualified observers), but he did.

One guy that wasn't phased by his trash talk and veteran tactics, was of course Chad Dawson (the second time around). The given theory in this thread could prove correct, but we will have to see. As you saw all of the examples, they eventually led to the same result.

The only "conversation worthy" factors of this fight's results would be, either, Mayweather giving Cotto the "Gatti treatment", or Cotto pulling off the upset. Floyd is "supposed" to win this fight, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he will. The biggest topic of discussion is Cotto winning this fight.
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