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> Showtime:Ortiz/Lopez&Matthysse/Soto@9(ET)/6(PT)-SPOILERS, Prelms 2 hrs. before on Show.Extme.(No New Threads or Public Streams)
haqtiq
post Jun 25 2012, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 25 2012, 12:01 AM) *
your jaw is like the second hardest bone to break in your entire body. These guys are warriors, I saw two great fights tonight neither was a disgrace. And its kind of ironic how people call that a disgrace when ortiz quit because of a broken bone while soto quit on the stool too without any broken bones or cuts that we know of.


What happened is the upset overshadowed the Soto loss. I think in all honesty Soto was going to get beat down later. On the broadcast showtime was JUST talking about how the body shots wont show up until round 6, it was round 5 going into 6, and aside from the last straight right hitting Soto, EVERYTHING else along with that right hand hit him as well.

Him never being down before sealed that, sorta like if he went down now, he's only going down again with that type of pressure on him, so to me his loss was validated.

I also take nothing away from Ortiz, except his mind is weak. Even if he couldn't make the Canelo date, he should have still tried to knock Lopez out, but he didn't. Imho HE quit, it wasn't even his corner, what got me is how he said it to the ref, I'd never seen that before.

To end my chatter tho, I think he could have tried 1 more round.. but he didn't so meh. So many greats before him, and he basically proved he'd never be that caliber of fighter.
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Cshel86
post Jun 25 2012, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 25 2012, 01:19 AM) *
To end my chatter tho, I think he could have tried 1 more round.. but he didn't so meh. So many greats before him, and he basically proved he'd never be that caliber of fighter.

And this is how fighters end up brain dead or having life long injuries...by listening to fans. Didn't that happen to Ali? Doctors were clearing this dude to fight, and they knew damn well he wasn't in shape to keep fighting.

Let's not forget that these injuries that fighters sustain in fights, dont just go away with the snap of a finger. These dudes have lifelong injuries and some of them are tedious as shit (hurt hands, back problems, headaches, eye injuries, etc).

I wouldn't be so quick to call Victor a quitter, though he did quit. A broken jaw is NO JOKE, and the fact that he had 3 more rounds to go (with a guy who kept cracking him) was waaaay too risky.

As fans, we want to see wars, but shit, we can get up the next day and go back to our regular lives, while these guys have to deal with these injuries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, they're fighters and they know what comes with the territory, but shit...a man who knows his weaknesses, actually makes him strong.

Victor HAS to fight again, so I cant blame him for looking out for his health. Besides, you know as well as I do that he WILL get hit in that jaw again, so it's better to be safe than sorry. Had he gone 3 more rounds, there's no telling what condition his face would've been in.

Some people fight through those types of injuries, but are never the same...example, Margarito. He wanted to prove that he was a warrior and his corner was dumb enough to allow him to continue. Now, he has a fucked up eye, a couple of decent paychecks, and he's retired...hope that money works for him.
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checkleft
post Jun 25 2012, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 25 2012, 11:43 AM) *
And this is how fighters end up brain dead or having life long injuries...by listening to fans. Didn't that happen to Ali? Doctors were clearing this dude to fight, and they knew damn well he wasn't in shape to keep fighting.

Let's not forget that these injuries that fighters sustain in fights, dont just go away with the snap of a finger. These dudes have lifelong injuries and some of them are tedious as shit (hurt hands, back problems, headaches, eye injuries, etc).

I wouldn't be so quick to call Victor a quitter, though he did quit. A broken jaw is NO JOKE, and the fact that he had 3 more rounds to go (with a guy who kept cracking him) was waaaay too risky.

As fans, we want to see wars, but shit, we can get up the next day and go back to our regular lives, while these guys have to deal with these injuries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, they're fighters and they know what comes with the territory, but shit...a man who knows his weaknesses, actually makes him strong.

Victor HAS to fight again, so I cant blame him for looking out for his health. Besides, you know as well as I do that he WILL get hit in that jaw again, so it's better to be safe than sorry. Had he gone 3 more rounds, there's no telling what condition his face would've been in.

Some people fight through those types of injuries, but are never the same...example, Margarito. He wanted to prove that he was a warrior and his corner was dumb enough to allow him to continue. Now, he has a fucked up eye, a couple of decent paychecks, and he's retired...hope that money works for him.

+1

We don't even know if victor can box after this. Yes people have fought after having broken jaws but some are career ending. Who knows how he could take a punch after it gets set back in place too.

But like you said a broken jaw isn't something to play with, he shouldn't be getting shit for this.
His defence was bad but he was actually jabbing and boxing well
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haqtiq
post Jun 26 2012, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 25 2012, 11:43 AM) *
And this is how fighters end up brain dead or having life long injuries...by listening to fans. Didn't that happen to Ali? Doctors were clearing this dude to fight, and they knew damn well he wasn't in shape to keep fighting.

Let's not forget that these injuries that fighters sustain in fights, dont just go away with the snap of a finger. These dudes have lifelong injuries and some of them are tedious as shit (hurt hands, back problems, headaches, eye injuries, etc).

I wouldn't be so quick to call Victor a quitter, though he did quit. A broken jaw is NO JOKE, and the fact that he had 3 more rounds to go (with a guy who kept cracking him) was waaaay too risky.

As fans, we want to see wars, but shit, we can get up the next day and go back to our regular lives, while these guys have to deal with these injuries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, they're fighters and they know what comes with the territory, but shit...a man who knows his weaknesses, actually makes him strong.

Victor HAS to fight again, so I cant blame him for looking out for his health. Besides, you know as well as I do that he WILL get hit in that jaw again, so it's better to be safe than sorry. Had he gone 3 more rounds, there's no telling what condition his face would've been in.

Some people fight through those types of injuries, but are never the same...example, Margarito. He wanted to prove that he was a warrior and his corner was dumb enough to allow him to continue. Now, he has a fucked up eye, a couple of decent paychecks, and he's retired...hope that money works for him.


I feel you man, I do. Let me see the proper way to bring this.. it's a FIGHT! You said it yourself he's a FIGHTER. I don't disagree with you, but look at it this way. Soto didn't get up and say "Ya know, I think I will be shitting blood for a month, and I see 12 of you". His corner stopped it.

More power to Victor, for I guess giving up in a fight he could have won, I just said 1 more round, not 3. That last ditch effort, you know championship quality digging deep to get that victory. After the imaginary win he could have said, that guy was a beast, had my jaw broke, but he wasn't cut from the same cloth as me, a champion.

I was pissed when Popo quit against Diaz, pissed when Duran No Mas'd against Leonard. Proud when Mayweather hit Hernandez with that uppoercut, shattered his hand, and kept fighting, elated when Abraham fought with a broken jaw against the uber-hard hitting Miranda.

Maybe it's just me, but this is boxing. I hit you, it hurts, you hit me back, it hurts, somewhere in there.. there's a chance for shit to be broken. Do you quit, or tough it out for "1 more round"?

Sometimes real champions only need one more round. If it wasn't this way.. why do we even watch the sport, I mean it's the paingame, people get broken and battered it's to be expected.. but tapping out before even giving yourself one more shot.. fuck man, I couldn't live MY life that way. But again, maybe it's just me.
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Cshel86
post Jun 26 2012, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:11 AM) *
I feel you man, I do. Let me see the proper way to bring this.. it's a FIGHT! You said it yourself he's a FIGHTER. I don't disagree with you, but look at it this way. Soto didn't get up and say "Ya know, I think I will be shitting blood for a month, and I see 12 of you". His corner stopped it.

Okay, first you say that you DON't disagree with me, but then you go back and agree with Soto's corner stopping the fight. If you go back and look, he didn't even respond to his corner when they were checking on him after the knockdown. Just because a guy doesn't verbalize the fact that he's had enough, doesn't mean that they aren't ready to call it a night. Remember, body language is the strongest language.

QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:11 AM) *
More power to Victor, for I guess giving up in a fight he could have won, I just said 1 more round, not 3. That last ditch effort, you know championship quality digging deep to get that victory. After the imaginary win he could have said, that guy was a beast, had my jaw broke, but he wasn't cut from the same cloth as me, a champion.

Yes he could have possibly won, but who said that he was on his way to winning the fight anyway? Was there any guaranteed evidence? From what I saw, he was hitting Lopez with some good stuff, and Lopez wasn't budging every time. Lopez was giving it waaaay better than he was taking it, which made it a close fight, and the tough got going for Ortiz. Let's not start the "imaginary" stuff...no need to do that. One more round could've been the end of his career. Fighting with hurt/broken hands is one thing, being that it isn't the intended target, but his face was bound to get hit again, especially since he couldn't get away from Lopez' left hook.

Ali is considered the Greatest of All Time and the best champion ever, but how fucked up is his condition nowadays? I want to consider guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, Barrera, Morales (to name a few) as the greatest fighters ever, but at what cost? No one wants to see these guys stuttering and delayed when they get older. What in the hell does that prove when your faculties are pissed away?

QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:11 AM) *
I was pissed when Popo quit against Diaz, pissed when Duran No Mas'd against Leonard. Proud when Mayweather hit Hernandez with that uppoercut, shattered his hand, and kept fighting, elated when Abraham fought with a broken jaw against the uber-hard hitting Miranda.

You're bringing up these old fights when guys "hung in there", but remember, back in the days, if guys were fighters...thats ALL they were. There was no “million dollar paydays” with Al Haymon as your manager, against a tomato can. Ever wonder why those guys fought so much? Yeah Duran quit against Hearns, what can we do?

When Mayweather hurt his hand against Hernandez, he still had one hand to fight with, big deal. You make it seem like he came back and knocked the guy out with a shattered hand, he practically ran for the rest of the fight. Hell if you look at it, Cotto quit in the Margarito fight, he took a knee didn't he? Nobody truly know if Toney's gloves were loaded, since they were 8 oz gloves and he was able to throw with a bit more speed. But hey, Cotto is this fuckin' HOF warrior to the public...let's not forget that he ran for the rest of the Pacquiao fight, until he was stopped. Hell, Morales quit in the 3rd Pacquiao, right? Weight drained or not, he was supposed to tough it out, right? Barrera basically gave up in the first Pacquiao fight, right? These guys are still considered legends, correct?

QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:11 AM) *
Maybe it's just me, but this is boxing. I hit you, it hurts, you hit me back, it hurts, somewhere in there.. there's a chance for shit to be broken. Do you quit, or tough it out for "1 more round"?
Sometimes real champions only need one more round. If it wasn't this way.. why do we even watch the sport, I mean it's the paingame, people get broken and battered it's to be expected.. but tapping out before even giving yourself one more shot.. fuck man, I couldn't live MY life that way. But again, maybe it's just me.

Point is, you cant make excuses for some fighters and bash others...you cant truly have it both ways. This "1 more round" stuff that you're going by, is ridiculous. It's funny that a guy's corner is smarter than the average fan, who just wants to see two dudes beat each other's organs out. I've seen street fights where guys showed too much heart and took that "1 last punch" that they shouldn't have, and they're eternally suffering injuries due to a 45 second scrap that he was supposed to "have heart" in.

Truthfully, if you were actually paying attention in the fight, Garcia asked Victor about 2 or 3 rounds prior to the 9th if he was okay", so Im sure the injury took place before the 9th. So, it would be a good idea to pay attention what's really happening, because as far as Im concerned, the broken jaw happened BEFORE the end of the 9th...so did he "tough it out" or not?

Why do YOU watch the sport? If you wanna see guys get cracked up, then go back to MMA where they hug, wrestle, and elbow the shit out of each other. It's the paingame, but why take more pain than your body already endures while training and getting through a relatively easy fight? Those dudes do sustain and sometimes come into the fight with injuries, ya know?

Again, it's cool to be a fan of contact sports and have a certain level of expectations, but by all means, be rational about it. Again, you're excusing the quit sessions of some fighters, but give other fighters shit for it.

To think about it, people are bringing up great fighters like, since Ortiz threw in the towel last Saturday. Think about it this way, when Ali's name was brought up any other time, did Victor's name ever scroll through your memory bank? More than likely not, so need to bring up his name now.
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haqtiq
post Jun 26 2012, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 26 2012, 10:30 AM) *
Okay, first you say that you DON't disagree with me, but then you go back and agree with Soto's corner stopping the fight. If you go back and look, he didn't even respond to his corner when they were checking on him after the knockdown. Just because a guy doesn't verbalize the fact that he's had enough, doesn't mean that they aren't ready to call it a night. Remember, body language is the strongest language.


Yes he could have possibly won, but who said that he was on his way to winning the fight anyway? Was there any guaranteed evidence? From what I saw, he was hitting Lopez with some good stuff, and Lopez wasn't budging every time. Lopez was giving it waaaay better than he was taking it, which made it a close fight, and the tough got going for Ortiz. Let's not start the "imaginary" stuff...no need to do that. One more round could've been the end of his career. Fighting with hurt/broken hands is one thing, being that it isn't the intended target, but his face was bound to get hit again, especially since he couldn't get away from Lopez' left hook.

Ali is considered the Greatest of All Time and the best champion ever, but how fucked up is his condition nowadays? I want to consider guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, Barrera, Morales (to name a few) as the greatest fighters ever, but at what cost? No one wants to see these guys stuttering and delayed when they get older. What in the hell does that prove when your faculties are pissed away?


You're bringing up these old fights when guys "hung in there", but remember, back in the days, if guys were fighters...thats ALL they were. There was no “million dollar paydays” with Al Haymon as your manager, against a tomato can. Ever wonder why those guys fought so much? Yeah Duran quit against Hearns, what can we do?

When Mayweather hurt his hand against Hernandez, he still had one hand to fight with, big deal. You make it seem like he came back and knocked the guy out with a shattered hand, he practically ran for the rest of the fight. Hell if you look at it, Cotto quit in the Margarito fight, he took a knee didn't he? Nobody truly know if Toney's gloves were loaded, since they were 8 oz gloves and he was able to throw with a bit more speed. But hey, Cotto is this fuckin' HOF warrior to the public...let's not forget that he ran for the rest of the Pacquiao fight, until he was stopped. Hell, Morales quit in the 3rd Pacquiao, right? Weight drained or not, he was supposed to tough it out, right? Barrera basically gave up in the first Pacquiao fight, right? These guys are still considered legends, correct?


Point is, you cant make excuses for some fighters and bash others...you cant truly have it both ways. This "1 more round" stuff that you're going by, is ridiculous. It's funny that a guy's corner is smarter than the average fan, who just wants to see two dudes beat each other's organs out. I've seen street fights where guys showed too much heart and took that "1 last punch" that they shouldn't have, and they're eternally suffering injuries due to a 45 second scrap that he was supposed to "have heart" in.

Truthfully, if you were actually paying attention in the fight, Garcia asked Victor about 2 or 3 rounds prior to the 9th if he was okay", so Im sure the injury took place before the 9th. So, it would be a good idea to pay attention what's really happening, because as far as Im concerned, the broken jaw happened BEFORE the end of the 9th...so did he "tough it out" or not?

Why do YOU watch the sport? If you wanna see guys get cracked up, then go back to MMA where they hug, wrestle, and elbow the shit out of each other. It's the paingame, but why take more pain than your body already endures while training and getting through a relatively easy fight? Those dudes do sustain and sometimes come into the fight with injuries, ya know?

Again, it's cool to be a fan of contact sports and have a certain level of expectations, but by all means, be rational about it. Again, you're excusing the quit sessions of some fighters, but give other fighters shit for it.

To think about it, people are bringing up great fighters like, since Ortiz threw in the towel last Saturday. Think about it this way, when Ali's name was brought up any other time, did Victor's name ever scroll through your memory bank? More than likely not, so need to bring up his name now.


Wow, I am not giving any shit Shel, and that's fine you see things your way. I see things mine. Of course a corner is going to know more about their fighter than I do, but some fighters go beyond what the corner says and still pull out a victory.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from.. I do. But I don't think you see where I am coming from. I chuckle at you using MMA against boxing, because I do watch MMA. I love contact sports because it's about CONTACT. I also respect a man that knows his limits, and does not want to continue.

As a man who's been to the bottom, and had to come back up, I know giving up early will only haunt your for the rest of your life. Combine that with being a fighter... you SHOULD be going that extra mile. Or should I just go get a boxing license, take one punch and quit? Ohh I'm hurt. Now in Ortiz's case.. Ok.. broken jaw. It is a big deal, that undeniable.. BUT he's a former champion, not some regular dude in a street fight. Don't champions have to have that extra pedigree, that B and C fighters don't have? That's fighting through pain, fatigue and whatever else may be going on?

I'll use a more recent example of not giving up... game 4 of the finals.. Lebron hobbling around, hurt... had enough in him to come back for his team and seal the deal. Sure it's a team sport, but HE was the one who technically closed the show for the Heat in that game. Wonder what would have happened if he sat it out? We won't know because he didn't.

Don't assume anything about me, don't think I am only wanting to see people get hurt. I want to see people go further than their bodies feel is possible. Being from where I am from, and doing and seeing what I have seen has made me that way, because I had to do it. IF they can't, then they can't, but what if they did... everything we are talking about potentially could end in a different result.

I have failed, and that's the reason I succeed - Michael Jordan
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Cshel86
post Jun 26 2012, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:51 PM) *
Wow, I am not giving any shit Shel, and that's fine you see things your way. I see things mine. Of course a corner is going to know more about their fighter than I do, but some fighters go beyond what the corner says and still pull out a victory.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from.. I do. But I don't think you see where I am coming from. I chuckle at you using MMA against boxing, because I do watch MMA. I love contact sports because it's about CONTACT. I also respect a man that knows his limits, and does not want to continue.

As a man who's been to the bottom, and had to come back up, I know giving up early will only haunt your for the rest of your life. Combine that with being a fighter... you SHOULD be going that extra mile. Or should I just go get a boxing license, take one punch and quit? Ohh I'm hurt. Now in Ortiz's case.. Ok.. broken jaw. It is a big deal, that undeniable.. BUT he's a former champion, not some regular dude in a street fight. Don't champions have to have that extra pedigree, that B and C fighters don't have? That's fighting through pain, fatigue and whatever else may be going on?

I'll use a more recent example of not giving up... game 4 of the finals.. Lebron hobbling around, hurt... had enough in him to come back for his team and seal the deal. Sure it's a team sport, but HE was the one who technically closed the show for the Heat in that game. Wonder what would have happened if he sat it out? We won't know because he didn't.

Don't assume anything about me, don't think I am only wanting to see people get hurt. I want to see people go further than their bodies feel is possible. Being from where I am from, and doing and seeing what I have seen has made me that way, because I had to do it. IF they can't, then they can't, but what if they did... everything we are talking about potentially could end in a different result.

I have failed, and that's the reason I succeed - Michael Jordan

I chuckle at you using basketball in comparison to a fighter going the extra mile, or "toughing it out" as you would said...especially using Lebron James' punk ass. You could've at least stuck with Jordan playing with the flu in the finals (and winning). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I respect a man knowing his limits as well, we all should (to some degree). Some guys tough it out and dont even give us fans a chance to cheer them on in continuing a rough fight (Gatti in the Ward fight, Morales in the Maidana fight, Mosley in the 1st Forrest fight). I gave Ortiz shit for the Maidan fight because he flat out quit when it got rough, but his injury was legit in this fight.

If you've ever graced the presence of a boxing license or knew somebody that had one, you'd know that the fighter's safety was in their hands alone. As we're a guilty of clicking on the "I agree to the terms" box, we're able to go back and complain, blame-shift, etc, and get what we want or not be held responsible for our lack of judgement (so to speak).

As fighters, they have to look after themselves. What if Victor did go "1 more round" (which Im sure he did without our knowledge after hearing Garcia talk to him between rounds), and got his face dismantled? What will he say when he's being rolled into the ER?

Doctor: Victor, your jaw is completely damaged. When did you feel any type of pain?
Ortiz: Uh, you know Doc, it could've been around the 6th round, I dunno. It's okay though, ya know? (typica Ortiz dialogue, lol)
Doctor: Why didn't you tell your corner that you felt your jaw in pain? Why didn't you make it clear to anybody?
Ortiz: Well you know Doc, I did it for my fans and the people that doubt me. You know, I didn't wanna be looked at as a quitter.It's okay though, ya know?
Doctor: WHAT THA FUCK? SERIOUSLY?! Dude, you will never be able to fight again, your jaw is done. Your career is over. You're looking about 3 surgeries and doctor visits twice a month...for the rest of your life. You should've stopped earlier? Where are your fans now?
Victor: Well dude, this is how I look at it---
Doctor: (cuts in) No! You're responsible for your own health! I know where the fight fans are. They're on message boards calling you a bitch and quitter, and to think about it, you may have stopped a little too late. Actually, you did. A lot of those guys are so dumb and probably never had a broken jaw, but guess what, they felt like you should've "toughed it out". Funny, right?

Cshel's schedule:
Saturday night: posting on the message board about the fight. "Damn that shit was wild"! Texting people about Victor's broken jaw.
Sunday morning: Watching the fight again, texting about the fight, posting on a message board about the fight
Monday morning: (at work) Telling coworkers about the fight and showing the highlights. "Daaaamn...did you see that shit?"
Tuesday morning: (at work) CShel checks his email and discovers that the company has an audit on July 9th. Thinking about Victor's jaw? At little less by the day.
Tuesday (evening): (at work) Supervisor tells CShel that he has to report to work 2 1/2 hours early tomorrow morning to prepare for the audit. "WTF???" Thinking about Victor's jaw? Hell fuck no! He has to report to work at 6Am and pick up the slack of some lazy coworkers.

Get my point? While you'r enjoying these fights with these guys "toughing it out", they're dealing with the shit afterwards and you move on with your life. Funny how i haven't heard anything about Paul Williams since his accident....that shit lasted every bit of 2 weeks and people dont say anything else other than, "Damn, hope he recovers. Hope he has his money saved up (for those who ACTUALLY give a damn about him)".

QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 26 2012, 03:51 PM) *
Don't assume anything about me, don't think I am only wanting to see people get hurt. I want to see people go further than their bodies feel is possible.

You dint want to see people get hurt, but yet, you want to see them go further than their bodies feel is possible??? Help me out here. Isn't that how athletes get hurt in? Especially in training.

I will go back to my Ali example since you seem to keep looking over it. Didn't he go further than his body felt was possible? He did that over a long period of time, because he was supposed to hang 'em up a long time ago. He took beatings in the Frazier fights and the Holmes fights, which were GREAT fights. Wasn't he taking the majority of his punishment in training during sparring sessions? Oh but wait, we were supposed to see him go further than his felt possible, right?

PS: Please dont start talking about where you're from and what you had to deal with...we can all sing that same song in different keys, my man. It just gives me the idea that you're finding a way out of the discussion. Doesn't really give me the idea that you want to "tough it out". Need a white towel? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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mrchitown
post Jun 26 2012, 10:40 PM
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I've rewatched the fight a couple of times and I come to believe that it happened in the 5th round. His manager gave an interview in which he discussed when the jaw was broken, this is what was told to him by Ortiz. He makes reference to Victor telling him it happened earlier in the fight. If you look at the 5th round, Ortiz gets hit with a hard left hook, and in between rounds they replayed the action and that same left hook was included in the package. The look of discomfort in Victor's face said it all to me, I believe he gave it more then 1 more round.

Only he knew his limitations as far as tolerating pain. Hopefully he heals up and goes after the rematch. Looking at him spit out blood and bury his head in his hands in the locker room, I can tell it was really eating at him.

This post has been edited by mrchitown: Jun 26 2012, 10:41 PM
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haqtiq
post Jun 27 2012, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 26 2012, 10:22 PM) *
I chuckle at you using basketball in comparison to a fighter going the extra mile, or "toughing it out" as you would said...especially using Lebron James' punk ass. You could've at least stuck with Jordan playing with the flu in the finals (and winning). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I respect a man knowing his limits as well, we all should (to some degree). Some guys tough it out and dont even give us fans a chance to cheer them on in continuing a rough fight (Gatti in the Ward fight, Morales in the Maidana fight, Mosley in the 1st Forrest fight). I gave Ortiz shit for the Maidan fight because he flat out quit when it got rough, but his injury was legit in this fight.

If you've ever graced the presence of a boxing license or knew somebody that had one, you'd know that the fighter's safety was in their hands alone. As we're a guilty of clicking on the "I agree to the terms" box, we're able to go back and complain, blame-shift, etc, and get what we want or not be held responsible for our lack of judgement (so to speak).

As fighters, they have to look after themselves. What if Victor did go "1 more round" (which Im sure he did without our knowledge after hearing Garcia talk to him between rounds), and got his face dismantled? What will he say when he's being rolled into the ER?

Doctor: Victor, your jaw is completely damaged. When did you feel any type of pain?
Ortiz: Uh, you know Doc, it could've been around the 6th round, I dunno. It's okay though, ya know? (typica Ortiz dialogue, lol)
Doctor: Why didn't you tell your corner that you felt your jaw in pain? Why didn't you make it clear to anybody?
Ortiz: Well you know Doc, I did it for my fans and the people that doubt me. You know, I didn't wanna be looked at as a quitter.It's okay though, ya know?
Doctor: WHAT THA FUCK? SERIOUSLY?! Dude, you will never be able to fight again, your jaw is done. Your career is over. You're looking about 3 surgeries and doctor visits twice a month...for the rest of your life. You should've stopped earlier? Where are your fans now?
Victor: Well dude, this is how I look at it---
Doctor: (cuts in) No! You're responsible for your own health! I know where the fight fans are. They're on message boards calling you a bitch and quitter, and to think about it, you may have stopped a little too late. Actually, you did. A lot of those guys are so dumb and probably never had a broken jaw, but guess what, they felt like you should've "toughed it out". Funny, right?

Cshel's schedule:
Saturday night: posting on the message board about the fight. "Damn that shit was wild"! Texting people about Victor's broken jaw.
Sunday morning: Watching the fight again, texting about the fight, posting on a message board about the fight
Monday morning: (at work) Telling coworkers about the fight and showing the highlights. "Daaaamn...did you see that shit?"
Tuesday morning: (at work) CShel checks his email and discovers that the company has an audit on July 9th. Thinking about Victor's jaw? At little less by the day.
Tuesday (evening): (at work) Supervisor tells CShel that he has to report to work 2 1/2 hours early tomorrow morning to prepare for the audit. "WTF???" Thinking about Victor's jaw? Hell fuck no! He has to report to work at 6Am and pick up the slack of some lazy coworkers.

Get my point? While you'r enjoying these fights with these guys "toughing it out", they're dealing with the shit afterwards and you move on with your life. Funny how i haven't heard anything about Paul Williams since his accident....that shit lasted every bit of 2 weeks and people dont say anything else other than, "Damn, hope he recovers. Hope he has his money saved up (for those who ACTUALLY give a damn about him)".


You dint want to see people get hurt, but yet, you want to see them go further than their bodies feel is possible??? Help me out here. Isn't that how athletes get hurt in? Especially in training.

I will go back to my Ali example since you seem to keep looking over it. Didn't he go further than his body felt was possible? He did that over a long period of time, because he was supposed to hang 'em up a long time ago. He took beatings in the Frazier fights and the Holmes fights, which were GREAT fights. Wasn't he taking the majority of his punishment in training during sparring sessions? Oh but wait, we were supposed to see him go further than his felt possible, right?

PS: Please dont start talking about where you're from and what you had to deal with...we can all sing that same song in different keys, my man. It just gives me the idea that you're finding a way out of the discussion. Doesn't really give me the idea that you want to "tough it out". Need a white towel? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


Damnit I like you Cshel, I love a good debate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

anywho, meh to the towel, lets keep this party rolling. Ok, ok... Lebron is a punkass you get 110% credit + 10% more for extra credit on that one, but still a good example non-the-less. And yes Ali was a GREAT example of pushing it to the limits and having to deal with the suffering later.

On the other hand Sugar Ray Leonard didn't cry about his detached retina, this is what he had to say about it :

After the Los Angeles Times broke the story, Leonard held a press conference and acknowledged that the accusations were true. He said he started using after he retired in 1982, following surgery to repair a detached retina. "I wanted more," Leonard said. "I wanted that arena. I didn't want anyone to tell me my career had to end."

That right there is what I am talking about. Not someone getting hurt, because in this fight game thats bound to happen, but those that push that envelope to greatness. Ya feel me?

Why in the hell would he even CONSIDER fighting with wealth, status, etc etc? Because of that proverbial chip on his shoulder. He knew he was the best at what he did, and he STILL wanted to challenge himself. That part where "I didn't want anyone to tell me my career had ended." Where is he rated in your book of he shouldn't have?

You said it yourself... Gatti... sweet fucking jesus, that's a guy with not a single quit bone in his body. He was loved and revered for it. As a matter of fact, that's my exact point. Those that attempt to reach greatness HAVE to go thru the fire and get burnt. Some make it, and alot of them don't. But those that do bro, will always have the utmost respect from me.

Now, reason I say it's me, and that's how I get down is just that, nothing more.. we could sing the song of someone stealing my candy as a kid, but the untold story is I came back and took their wife later, or worse. I don't give up, I don't know quit. Quitting didn't get me where I am in life, and to be honest I am living very well brother.

That's my point, I hope this clears up our short novel, but as usual I am ALWAYS ready for another round if you are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS. Total topic change man, I been staring at that damned pic in your profile, that's my dude... what movie is that from??

This post has been edited by haqtiq: Jun 27 2012, 03:24 AM
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Cshel86
post Jun 27 2012, 09:33 AM
Post #200


"The Meanest Nice Guy"


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QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 27 2012, 04:22 AM) *
Damnit I like you Cshel, I love a good debate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

anywho, meh to the towel, lets keep this party rolling. Ok, ok... Lebron is a punkass you get 110% credit + 10% more for extra credit on that one, but still a good example non-the-less. And yes Ali was a GREAT example of pushing it to the limits and having to deal with the suffering later.

On the other hand Sugar Ray Leonard didn't cry about his detached retina, this is what he had to say about it :

After the Los Angeles Times broke the story, Leonard held a press conference and acknowledged that the accusations were true. He said he started using after he retired in 1982, following surgery to repair a detached retina. "I wanted more," Leonard said. "I wanted that arena. I didn't want anyone to tell me my career had to end."

That right there is what I am talking about. Not someone getting hurt, because in this fight game thats bound to happen, but those that push that envelope to greatness. Ya feel me?

Why in the hell would he even CONSIDER fighting with wealth, status, etc etc? Because of that proverbial chip on his shoulder. He knew he was the best at what he did, and he STILL wanted to challenge himself. That part where "I didn't want anyone to tell me my career had ended." Where is he rated in your book of he shouldn't have?

You said it yourself... Gatti... sweet fucking jesus, that's a guy with not a single quit bone in his body. He was loved and revered for it. As a matter of fact, that's my exact point. Those that attempt to reach greatness HAVE to go thru the fire and get burnt. Some make it, and alot of them don't. But those that do bro, will always have the utmost respect from me.

Now, reason I say it's me, and that's how I get down is just that, nothing more.. we could sing the song of someone stealing my candy as a kid, but the untold story is I came back and took their wife later, or worse. I don't give up, I don't know quit. Quitting didn't get me where I am in life, and to be honest I am living very well brother.

That's my point, I hope this clears up our short novel, but as usual I am ALWAYS ready for another round if you are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS. Total topic change man, I been staring at that damned pic in your profile, that's my dude... what movie is that from??

Well, it looks like we're basically on the same page. You like to see them go the extra mile, and so do I, but in my case, if it's going to cause more permanent damage, then by all means, "Health first, dollars later" (as I saw an article recently titled).

Leonard was more than likely talked out of retirement, and offered some decent money to do so. The money that he received back in the day comes a bit easier to some of these fighters nowadays...that's why fighters dont fight as often as they once did.

If fighters are special and destined to be great, then I dont feel such punishment is necessary to prove a point. Guys like Gatti should have done themselves a favor and hung 'em up a long time ago, but honestly, money is the reason that some of these guys. Im not referring to money, as in guys wanting to get bigger paydays, but I speak of financial obligations (homes, cars, family/child support, divorce, legal woes, etc)...hence why RJJ, and few others are still fighting.

Gatti was loved by the public because of his grit and refusal to give up, but Im sure some of these guys ask themselves if it was truly worth it. Yeah I know, most of them get on television and say that they wouldn't have their career any other way, blah, blah, blah. That's what the public wants to hear. Gatti was stuttering and delayed during the buikd-up of the Mayweather fight, and still went on to fight for another 2 years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/no2.gif)

I understand your whole point of not quitting in life, because trust me, it no one favors...well, us normal folks. In Ortiz's case, he still has paydays ahead of him, so it was a catch-22 for him to wave the white flag. Now, he may need a Berto fight, more than Berto needs and Ortiz fight. Either way it goes...people still want to see that fight, which equals money in both of their pockets.

As I mentioned earlier, guys like Morales, Barrera, Cotto, and couple of others have quit in fights or was simply outgunned to the point that there was no other option. They STILL moved on to do bigger and better things.

PS: That dude on my avatar is Wee-bey from The Wire! Dude was a trip!
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