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> did PED'S do pac in???, i don't think so...
daprofessor
post Dec 11 2012, 07:50 PM
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there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.

This post has been edited by daprofessor: Dec 11 2012, 07:52 PM
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VJones
post Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 06:18 PM) *
great post...and exactly my thought as i watched marquez recuperate from the knockdown.


Thanks prof.

QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, Max. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, Max.


+1

There are a lot of things that my body could be pushed to do in my 20's that my latter 30's body can no longer manage. But there are also some new things that I can do that either my 20-something frame couldn't handle or that I was mentally ill-equipped for. In addition, a 30-something athlete can be physically diminished in some areas, but make up for it in their mental game. You cannot underestimate the power of will, belief, and intention. JMM was trying to knock MP out. Intent, matched with will, plus a heavy dose of underdog, is the most powerful drug I know. JMM has them in spades.

QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 08:18 AM) *
someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.


+1

Did you notice too that by the end of the 5th, PAC seemed already winded. I think the pace (that he set) was not one he could keep up. And 5 took a lot out of him. Despite Marquez having the 'broken' nose, Pac's corner was the one that seemed more anxious. By round 6, he slowed his pace and I think he was reverting to what he did with Bradley (try to win the last few seconds of each round). That's why for no really smart reason (with 10 sec left in the round), he got jumpy (overly-aggressive) and JMM capitalized.

I think the outcome would have been the same even if he escaped the 6th. Because by then, JMM had his timing down and was reading PAC effectively.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:36 PM) *
the difference in what i saw between this marquez...and the marquez of old...he was definitely loading up more on the shots and went about setting them up better in a more economical fashion. it's exactly what nacho said they were going to do. they were still going to box smart...but this time they wanted to hurt pac. last time they were looking to out point him. it's definitely a gamble because usually when u look for the knock out u get knocked out. he kept just enough of the boxing to be elusive and set up that shot. pac was clearly much more aggressive this time around and as a result he was more reckless. a lot of freddie roach fighters are guilty of this. it's a flaw that i noticed since day one. they focus more on offense than defense.


Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For both fighters. But most of the pressure was on Manny and thus his recklessness. Because Manny was the one who'd been exalted and therefore had more to prove. He was the one coming off of a lackluster performance and loss to Bradley. And truly, his agression has always played into JMM's strengths. But aggression was also the only way he could try and get a clearl win.

I think if they had both been this aggressive in the 3rd fight, we could have seen the same outcome...or atleast knockdowns from one or both men.

This post has been edited by VJones: Dec 13 2012, 09:48 PM
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daprofessor
post Dec 14 2012, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM) *
Thanks prof.



+1

There are a lot of things that my body could be pushed to do in my 20's that my latter 30's body can no longer manage. But there are also some new things that I can do that either my 20-something frame couldn't handle or that I was mentally ill-equipped for. In addition, a 30-something athlete can be physically diminished in some areas, but make up for it in their mental game. You cannot underestimate the power of will, belief, and intention. JMM was trying to knock MP out. Intent, matched with will, plus a heavy dose of underdog, is the most powerful drug I know. JMM has them in spades.



+1

Did you notice too that by the end of the 5th, PAC seemed already winded. I think the pace (that he set) was not one he could keep up. And 5 took a lot out of him. Despite Marquez having the 'broken' nose, Pac's corner was the one that seemed more anxious. By round 6, he slowed his pace and I think he was reverting to what he did with Bradley (try to win the last few seconds of each round). That's why for no really smart reason (with 10 sec left in the round), he got jumpy (overly-aggressive) and JMM capitalized.

I think the outcome would have been the same even if he escaped the 6th. Because by then, JMM had his timing down and was reading PAC effectively.



Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For both fighters. But most of the pressure was on Manny and thus his recklessness. Because Manny was the one who'd been exalted and therefore had more to prove. He was the one coming off of a lackluster performance and loss to Bradley. And truly, his agression has always played into JMM's strengths. But aggression was also the only way he could try and get a clearl win.

I think if they had both been this aggressive in the 3rd fight, we could have seen the same outcome...or atleast knockdowns from one or both men.


another gem. hard to disagree with anything written. great observations. keep them coming.
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VJones
post Dec 14 2012, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 14 2012, 02:50 PM) *
another gem. hard to disagree with anything written. great observations. keep them coming.


Thanks again, Prof! Enjoying the great dialogue with you guys!
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Posts in this topic
- daprofessor   did PED'S do pac in???   Dec 11 2012, 07:50 PM
- - Marcus   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 07:50 P...   Dec 11 2012, 08:15 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Marcus @ Dec 11 2012, 08:15 PM) I ...   Dec 11 2012, 08:20 PM
- - Cshel86   Had Manny knocked JMM out cold, nobody would'v...   Dec 11 2012, 09:30 PM
- - checkleft   Juan doesn't have pillows for fists. The guy h...   Dec 12 2012, 12:05 AM
- - The Original MrFactor   I think he's juicing. In his 20's, his bod...   Dec 12 2012, 02:13 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Dec 12 2012, 0...   Dec 12 2012, 02:03 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 03:03 P...   Dec 12 2012, 03:13 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 12 2012, 03:13 PM) Pr...   Dec 12 2012, 05:18 PM
- - sduck   PEDs did do pac in, he toned down on that roid wor...   Dec 12 2012, 05:30 AM
|- - Franchize   QUOTE (sduck @ Dec 12 2012, 05:30 AM) PED...   Dec 12 2012, 10:25 AM
- - chance1   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 P...   Dec 12 2012, 07:12 AM
- - mgrover   i thought the wild and aggressive thing did him in...   Dec 12 2012, 07:49 AM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 12 2012, 07:49 AM) i...   Dec 12 2012, 10:04 AM
- - Gambit808   Rather he did or didn't use PED's, either ...   Dec 12 2012, 11:36 AM
- - Tha Docta   i think PED's had alot to do with JMM's vi...   Dec 12 2012, 01:53 PM
- - mitukczuk   I am kind of new to natural bodybuilding (been tra...   Dec 12 2012, 02:17 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 12 2012, 03:17 PM)...   Dec 12 2012, 03:15 PM
|- - flazi   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 P...   Dec 12 2012, 03:27 PM
- - checkleft   Instead of roids people should be blaming pac or r...   Dec 12 2012, 02:49 PM
- - BoxingStill#1   Pacs undoing (in this fight) was a beautiful, perf...   Dec 12 2012, 04:30 PM
- - BigDDatHomey   PEDs or.not...it was a well timed shot. Watch the ...   Dec 12 2012, 05:01 PM
- - BigDDatHomey   Speaking of whether he is finished or not..remembe...   Dec 12 2012, 05:03 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (BigDDatHomey @ Dec 12 2012, 05:03 ...   Dec 12 2012, 05:16 PM
- - checkleft   I didn't really think it was that bad of a kno...   Dec 12 2012, 05:37 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 12 2012, 05:37 PM)...   Dec 12 2012, 08:15 PM
|- - Plah   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 09:15 P...   Dec 12 2012, 10:00 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (Plah @ Dec 12 2012, 11:00 PM) I th...   Dec 13 2012, 02:23 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 02:23 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 03:59 AM
- - MaxPayne   Time for a basic Biology discussion. A man stops...   Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM
|- - mitukczuk   QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM) ...   Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 02:29 PM
- - mgrover   someone once said if you live by the sword you die...   Dec 13 2012, 07:18 AM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 09:04 AM
- - Franchize   To be honest, you didn't need to be a heavy po...   Dec 13 2012, 09:36 AM
- - pimpfighterROQ   It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez...   Dec 13 2012, 10:01 AM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 03:0...   Dec 13 2012, 01:04 PM
- - Tha Docta   I just cannot for the life of me remember a 39 yr ...   Dec 13 2012, 11:04 AM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 11:0...   Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 02:36 PM
- - Cshel86   QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 12 2012, 04:30...   Dec 13 2012, 02:56 PM
|- - mitukczuk   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 02:56 PM) T...   Dec 13 2012, 05:00 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 05:00 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 05:03 PM
- - daprofessor   there are definitely accusations flying around...a...   Dec 13 2012, 03:11 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 P...   Dec 13 2012, 03:21 PM
||- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 03:21 PM) O...   Dec 13 2012, 03:25 PM
|- - Tha Docta   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 P...   Dec 13 2012, 03:48 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Tha Docta @ Dec 13 2012, 03:48 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 06:08 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 11:08 P...   Dec 13 2012, 06:18 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 06:18 PM) b...   Dec 13 2012, 07:20 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 02:36 P...   Dec 13 2012, 09:16 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 10:16 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 10:09 PM
- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 06:18 P...   Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM) Th...   Dec 14 2012, 01:50 PM
||- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 14 2012, 02:50 P...   Dec 14 2012, 04:26 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 08:42 PM) Th...   Dec 22 2012, 11:56 AM
- - duwdu   What do you say...Arum now says he would "ins...   Dec 13 2012, 11:24 PM
- - mgrover   thing is that may make a difference, no excuses ei...   Dec 14 2012, 12:26 PM
- - VJones   QUOTE (duwdu @ Dec 14 2012, 12:24 AM) Wha...   Dec 14 2012, 04:24 PM
- - daprofessor   is it me? or has merchant, lampley and hbo tried t...   Dec 17 2012, 03:52 AM
|- - Franchize   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 03:52 A...   Dec 17 2012, 09:11 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Franchize @ Dec 17 2012, 09:11 AM)...   Dec 17 2012, 01:32 PM
- - neophyte7   Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For b...   Dec 17 2012, 04:06 PM
- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 03:52 A...   Dec 17 2012, 08:39 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 17 2012, 08:39 PM) I...   Dec 17 2012, 08:56 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 08:56 P...   Dec 18 2012, 02:55 PM
- - mgrover   I always wondered, if past the sixth round Pac was...   Dec 18 2012, 07:24 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 18 2012, 07:24 AM) I...   Dec 18 2012, 02:18 PM
- - neophyte7   I noticed an increase in HENNESSY ADS immediately ...   Dec 18 2012, 03:17 PM
- - daprofessor   QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Dec 18 2012, 03:17 PM)...   Dec 18 2012, 04:08 PM


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