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> did PED'S do pac in???, i don't think so...
daprofessor
post Dec 11 2012, 07:50 PM
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there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.

This post has been edited by daprofessor: Dec 11 2012, 07:52 PM
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MaxPayne
post Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM
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Time for a basic Biology discussion.

A man stops growing in his mid-20's. He reaches peak physical strength in his late 20's. He maintains that strength into his early 30's. From age 35 onward, your testosterone levels fall off and you precipitously lose the athletic ability that you had in your peak years of 27 through 31 or so.

There's a reason why in most sports, people start to fall off from their early 30's onward.

During Marquez's peak years, he was fighting at 126 lbs. This weight class represents the height of his fully grown athletic abilities.

The idea that through weight straining and maintaining a diet, a man can transform his body works in the case of a growing man, who has a frame that is not fully filled and has room to grow, so to speak. This is why athletes can put on 10 - 15 pounds of muscle and gain a lot of strength. A younger body is also able to work out for extended periods of time, as your ability to heal from the weight-training is still great.

As you get older, you lose the ability to recover. Your metabolism slows down. The time taken to heal from injuries gets longer and longer.

There is simply no way that after a certain age, in the sport of boxing, that a man can gain the power needed to hurt naturally larger men.

Marquez fought Pacquiao 3 times before this most recent fights. In all of those fights, he hit Pacquiao with clean, precise and powerful right hand shots. Pacquiao was badly wobbled on several occasions.

However, he never went down and was never hurt to the point of being finished by a barrage of unanswered punches.

This is a critical point.

A 39 year old man suddenly gains the power to knock a man down brutally 2 times at a higher weight class than the one which he fought when he was at his athletic peak. Interesting.

A 39 year old man suddenly has a physique that he never had when his natural testosterone levels were at their highest (body musculature is directly related to the testosterone levels in a man's blood).

A 39 year old man suddenly has the ability to embark on an ambitious Cross Fit style training program that is centered around heavy weight training.

A 39 year old man who has never been known as a devastating one punch knockout power type of fighter suddenly does just that to a man who he has never hurt to that point before, and one who has taken the best shots of larger and stronger men than Marquez.

A 39 year old man who has tried fighting at this weight before only to look sluggish and lacking definite power suddenly gains explosive power.

Floyd Mayweather, in his post 130 lbs. boxing career, has seen a considerable drop in his power, which is natural. You reach a certain power level at your peak and then gradually lose that power over time. He has beaten much larger men because of pure skills and technique. Not through power.

Angel Heredia can say whatever he wants. In this day and age, testing standards are entire generations behind what is available for abuse. Nowadays, people don't even use "steroids". After all, why would you, when you can easily acquire so many steroid pre-cursors that start the process on a much more natural level (stimulating the body to produce more testosterone instead of artificial testosterone introduction).

Of course they're "confident that we would beat any test". It's because the tests are prehistoric.

The only reason I don't feel a sense of outright injustice is that Pacquiao himself has abused performance enhancing drugs, a claim that I may not be able to definitely prove, but which I am willing to absolutely bet my house on.

But once again, the idea that a man who at the twilight of his career can somehow gain the ability to make a dude who he has never truly hurt before do an incredible mattress commercial impersonation, is laughable at best.
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mitukczuk
post Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM) *
Time for a basic Biology discussion.

A man stops growing in his mid-20's. He reaches peak physical strength in his late 20's. He maintains that strength into his early 30's. From age 35 onward, your testosterone levels fall off and you precipitously lose the athletic ability that you had in your peak years of 27 through 31 or so.

There's a reason why in most sports, people start to fall off from their early 30's onward.

During Marquez's peak years, he was fighting at 126 lbs. This weight class represents the height of his fully grown athletic abilities.

The idea that through weight straining and maintaining a diet, a man can transform his body works in the case of a growing man, who has a frame that is not fully filled and has room to grow, so to speak. This is why athletes can put on 10 - 15 pounds of muscle and gain a lot of strength. A younger body is also able to work out for extended periods of time, as your ability to heal from the weight-training is still great.

As you get older, you lose the ability to recover. Your metabolism slows down. The time taken to heal from injuries gets longer and longer.

There is simply no way that after a certain age, in the sport of boxing, that a man can gain the power needed to hurt naturally larger men.

Marquez fought Pacquiao 3 times before this most recent fights. In all of those fights, he hit Pacquiao with clean, precise and powerful right hand shots. Pacquiao was badly wobbled on several occasions.

However, he never went down and was never hurt to the point of being finished by a barrage of unanswered punches.

This is a critical point.

A 39 year old man suddenly gains the power to knock a man down brutally 2 times at a higher weight class than the one which he fought when he was at his athletic peak. Interesting.

A 39 year old man suddenly has a physique that he never had when his natural testosterone levels were at their highest (body musculature is directly related to the testosterone levels in a man's blood).

A 39 year old man suddenly has the ability to embark on an ambitious Cross Fit style training program that is centered around heavy weight training.

A 39 year old man who has never been known as a devastating one punch knockout power type of fighter suddenly does just that to a man who he has never hurt to that point before, and one who has taken the best shots of larger and stronger men than Marquez.

A 39 year old man who has tried fighting at this weight before only to look sluggish and lacking definite power suddenly gains explosive power.

Floyd Mayweather, in his post 130 lbs. boxing career, has seen a considerable drop in his power, which is natural. You reach a certain power level at your peak and then gradually lose that power over time. He has beaten much larger men because of pure skills and technique. Not through power.

Angel Heredia can say whatever he wants. In this day and age, testing standards are entire generations behind what is available for abuse. Nowadays, people don't even use "steroids". After all, why would you, when you can easily acquire so many steroid pre-cursors that start the process on a much more natural level (stimulating the body to produce more testosterone instead of artificial testosterone introduction).

Of course they're "confident that we would beat any test". It's because the tests are prehistoric.

The only reason I don't feel a sense of outright injustice is that Pacquiao himself has abused performance enhancing drugs, a claim that I may not be able to definitely prove, but which I am willing to absolutely bet my house on.

But once again, the idea that a man who at the twilight of his career can somehow gain the ability to make a dude who he has never truly hurt before do an incredible mattress commercial impersonation, is laughable at best.


Very nice assesment, Max. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, Max.

This post has been edited by mitukczuk: Dec 13 2012, 04:59 PM
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daprofessor
post Dec 13 2012, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.


the bolded says it all...

plus, u have to take into account...pac has been on the decline. he's looked more and more human with each passing bout. when those reflexes slow down by a fraction of a second...this is what happens. anybody remember jones/tarver 2? jones has always been a highly athletic athlete. when that athleticism slowed down just a little bit...we all saw what happened. same applies to pac. he's always been extremely flawed and has gotten away with many mistakes because he lacks basic skills. marquez exploited that. so in my opinion...i believe it's a combination of jmm getting up for the fight...and pac's athletic ability diminishing just a bit.
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- daprofessor   did PED'S do pac in???   Dec 11 2012, 07:50 PM
- - Marcus   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 07:50 P...   Dec 11 2012, 08:15 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Marcus @ Dec 11 2012, 08:15 PM) I ...   Dec 11 2012, 08:20 PM
- - Cshel86   Had Manny knocked JMM out cold, nobody would'v...   Dec 11 2012, 09:30 PM
- - checkleft   Juan doesn't have pillows for fists. The guy h...   Dec 12 2012, 12:05 AM
- - The Original MrFactor   I think he's juicing. In his 20's, his bod...   Dec 12 2012, 02:13 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Dec 12 2012, 0...   Dec 12 2012, 02:03 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 03:03 P...   Dec 12 2012, 03:13 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 12 2012, 03:13 PM) Pr...   Dec 12 2012, 05:18 PM
- - sduck   PEDs did do pac in, he toned down on that roid wor...   Dec 12 2012, 05:30 AM
|- - Franchize   QUOTE (sduck @ Dec 12 2012, 05:30 AM) PED...   Dec 12 2012, 10:25 AM
- - chance1   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 P...   Dec 12 2012, 07:12 AM
- - mgrover   i thought the wild and aggressive thing did him in...   Dec 12 2012, 07:49 AM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 12 2012, 07:49 AM) i...   Dec 12 2012, 10:04 AM
- - Gambit808   Rather he did or didn't use PED's, either ...   Dec 12 2012, 11:36 AM
- - Tha Docta   i think PED's had alot to do with JMM's vi...   Dec 12 2012, 01:53 PM
- - mitukczuk   I am kind of new to natural bodybuilding (been tra...   Dec 12 2012, 02:17 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 12 2012, 03:17 PM)...   Dec 12 2012, 03:15 PM
|- - flazi   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 P...   Dec 12 2012, 03:27 PM
- - checkleft   Instead of roids people should be blaming pac or r...   Dec 12 2012, 02:49 PM
- - BoxingStill#1   Pacs undoing (in this fight) was a beautiful, perf...   Dec 12 2012, 04:30 PM
- - BigDDatHomey   PEDs or.not...it was a well timed shot. Watch the ...   Dec 12 2012, 05:01 PM
- - BigDDatHomey   Speaking of whether he is finished or not..remembe...   Dec 12 2012, 05:03 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (BigDDatHomey @ Dec 12 2012, 05:03 ...   Dec 12 2012, 05:16 PM
- - checkleft   I didn't really think it was that bad of a kno...   Dec 12 2012, 05:37 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 12 2012, 05:37 PM)...   Dec 12 2012, 08:15 PM
|- - Plah   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 09:15 P...   Dec 12 2012, 10:00 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (Plah @ Dec 12 2012, 11:00 PM) I th...   Dec 13 2012, 02:23 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 02:23 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 03:59 AM
- - MaxPayne   Time for a basic Biology discussion. A man stops...   Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM
|- - mitukczuk   QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM) ...   Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 02:29 PM
- - mgrover   someone once said if you live by the sword you die...   Dec 13 2012, 07:18 AM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM)...   Dec 13 2012, 09:04 AM
- - Franchize   To be honest, you didn't need to be a heavy po...   Dec 13 2012, 09:36 AM
- - pimpfighterROQ   It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez...   Dec 13 2012, 10:01 AM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 03:0...   Dec 13 2012, 01:04 PM
- - Tha Docta   I just cannot for the life of me remember a 39 yr ...   Dec 13 2012, 11:04 AM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 11:0...   Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 02:36 PM
- - Cshel86   QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 12 2012, 04:30...   Dec 13 2012, 02:56 PM
|- - mitukczuk   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 02:56 PM) T...   Dec 13 2012, 05:00 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 05:00 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 05:03 PM
- - daprofessor   there are definitely accusations flying around...a...   Dec 13 2012, 03:11 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 P...   Dec 13 2012, 03:21 PM
||- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 03:21 PM) O...   Dec 13 2012, 03:25 PM
|- - Tha Docta   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 P...   Dec 13 2012, 03:48 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Tha Docta @ Dec 13 2012, 03:48 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 06:08 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 11:08 P...   Dec 13 2012, 06:18 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 06:18 PM) b...   Dec 13 2012, 07:20 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 02:36 P...   Dec 13 2012, 09:16 PM
|- - VJones   QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 10:16 PM)...   Dec 13 2012, 10:09 PM
- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 06:18 P...   Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 09:42 PM) Th...   Dec 14 2012, 01:50 PM
||- - VJones   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 14 2012, 02:50 P...   Dec 14 2012, 04:26 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 13 2012, 08:42 PM) Th...   Dec 22 2012, 11:56 AM
- - duwdu   What do you say...Arum now says he would "ins...   Dec 13 2012, 11:24 PM
- - mgrover   thing is that may make a difference, no excuses ei...   Dec 14 2012, 12:26 PM
- - VJones   QUOTE (duwdu @ Dec 14 2012, 12:24 AM) Wha...   Dec 14 2012, 04:24 PM
- - daprofessor   is it me? or has merchant, lampley and hbo tried t...   Dec 17 2012, 03:52 AM
|- - Franchize   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 03:52 A...   Dec 17 2012, 09:11 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Franchize @ Dec 17 2012, 09:11 AM)...   Dec 17 2012, 01:32 PM
- - neophyte7   Yes sir. The intent was different this time. For b...   Dec 17 2012, 04:06 PM
- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 03:52 A...   Dec 17 2012, 08:39 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 17 2012, 08:39 PM) I...   Dec 17 2012, 08:56 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 17 2012, 08:56 P...   Dec 18 2012, 02:55 PM
- - mgrover   I always wondered, if past the sixth round Pac was...   Dec 18 2012, 07:24 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 18 2012, 07:24 AM) I...   Dec 18 2012, 02:18 PM
- - neophyte7   I noticed an increase in HENNESSY ADS immediately ...   Dec 18 2012, 03:17 PM
- - daprofessor   QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Dec 18 2012, 03:17 PM)...   Dec 18 2012, 04:08 PM


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