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> did PED'S do pac in???, i don't think so...
mitukczuk
post Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM) *
Time for a basic Biology discussion.

A man stops growing in his mid-20's. He reaches peak physical strength in his late 20's. He maintains that strength into his early 30's. From age 35 onward, your testosterone levels fall off and you precipitously lose the athletic ability that you had in your peak years of 27 through 31 or so.

There's a reason why in most sports, people start to fall off from their early 30's onward.

During Marquez's peak years, he was fighting at 126 lbs. This weight class represents the height of his fully grown athletic abilities.

The idea that through weight straining and maintaining a diet, a man can transform his body works in the case of a growing man, who has a frame that is not fully filled and has room to grow, so to speak. This is why athletes can put on 10 - 15 pounds of muscle and gain a lot of strength. A younger body is also able to work out for extended periods of time, as your ability to heal from the weight-training is still great.

As you get older, you lose the ability to recover. Your metabolism slows down. The time taken to heal from injuries gets longer and longer.

There is simply no way that after a certain age, in the sport of boxing, that a man can gain the power needed to hurt naturally larger men.

Marquez fought Pacquiao 3 times before this most recent fights. In all of those fights, he hit Pacquiao with clean, precise and powerful right hand shots. Pacquiao was badly wobbled on several occasions.

However, he never went down and was never hurt to the point of being finished by a barrage of unanswered punches.

This is a critical point.

A 39 year old man suddenly gains the power to knock a man down brutally 2 times at a higher weight class than the one which he fought when he was at his athletic peak. Interesting.

A 39 year old man suddenly has a physique that he never had when his natural testosterone levels were at their highest (body musculature is directly related to the testosterone levels in a man's blood).

A 39 year old man suddenly has the ability to embark on an ambitious Cross Fit style training program that is centered around heavy weight training.

A 39 year old man who has never been known as a devastating one punch knockout power type of fighter suddenly does just that to a man who he has never hurt to that point before, and one who has taken the best shots of larger and stronger men than Marquez.

A 39 year old man who has tried fighting at this weight before only to look sluggish and lacking definite power suddenly gains explosive power.

Floyd Mayweather, in his post 130 lbs. boxing career, has seen a considerable drop in his power, which is natural. You reach a certain power level at your peak and then gradually lose that power over time. He has beaten much larger men because of pure skills and technique. Not through power.

Angel Heredia can say whatever he wants. In this day and age, testing standards are entire generations behind what is available for abuse. Nowadays, people don't even use "steroids". After all, why would you, when you can easily acquire so many steroid pre-cursors that start the process on a much more natural level (stimulating the body to produce more testosterone instead of artificial testosterone introduction).

Of course they're "confident that we would beat any test". It's because the tests are prehistoric.

The only reason I don't feel a sense of outright injustice is that Pacquiao himself has abused performance enhancing drugs, a claim that I may not be able to definitely prove, but which I am willing to absolutely bet my house on.

But once again, the idea that a man who at the twilight of his career can somehow gain the ability to make a dude who he has never truly hurt before do an incredible mattress commercial impersonation, is laughable at best.


Very nice assesment, Max. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, Max.

This post has been edited by mitukczuk: Dec 13 2012, 04:59 PM
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mgrover
post Dec 13 2012, 07:18 AM
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someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.
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checkleft
post Dec 13 2012, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.

very good counter. Not only was Paul significantly younger he is known for having an iron chin. And I love what you said about how different people react differently to different methods of workouts. I'm not gonna get on board until the tests come back even tho marquez has a impeccable rep but it is definitely MORE than possible for an older man to gain the physique and strength seems to have gotten naturally. Idk why it seems so amazing to people, I guess dedication hard work and determination are steroids now...? Now again I'm not saying hes noy roided but its far from impossible for someone to get that way in their 40s. Seen it not only from boxers but also basketball players and just random old people I know at the gym PAST 40

QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 08:18 AM) *
someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.

Great point also. Also back to the Paul Williams shot, he had taken those kinds of punches throughout his career. But that one punch put his lights out. Maybe, as you said it was his resistance wearing down or being unaware of the punch coming or a combination of the two. Either way pac was no defensive genius by any means and him rushing in like a fool with his hands almost completely dropped doesn't help either. That punch was made for bad moves like that

This post has been edited by checkleft: Dec 13 2012, 09:06 AM
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Franchize
post Dec 13 2012, 09:36 AM
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To be honest, you didn't need to be a heavy power puncher to knock Manny out with that punch. Any fighter not named Malinaggi could have knocked Manny out if they hit him how Marquez hit him. Not to take anything away from Marquez, but it was mor so the placement and timing of the punch that KO'd Manny. It was like Floyd's check left that knocked down Hatton but better. Floyd had hit Hatton with way harder punches that fight. That check left was just perfectly placed and timed. As checkleft said (no pun intended), Manny literally jumped into the punch. It was like a bunny hop onto Marquez fist. I told my dad it was like when you see those blooper videos of people running into glass doors. Now imagine the glass door was moving toward them at the same speed as they were running. That's what happened to Manny. Only problem is, Marquez fist won't shatter like the door would so the only other thing that can happen is for Manny to go night night
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pimpfighterROQ
post Dec 13 2012, 10:01 AM
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It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez gave Pac was quadrupled in power because of Pac foolishly rushing in. You only have to look how Pac fell down. He fell face down from his position when he was hit down flat on the floor. Now take the Paul williams knockout in comparison. Identical punch but Paul got ktfo going timber on the direction the punch was aimed for. Look at the third Pac/Marquez fight around round 4. Pac was hit with the same knockout punch but no momentum so his chin withstood it. So yes I do think Pac's momentum doubled Marquez knockout punch with him rushing in. Nothing THAT unusual here folks.


However...

That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.


Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tha Docta
post Dec 13 2012, 11:04 AM
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I just cannot for the life of me remember a 39 yr old man at these lower weights being successful without the use of PED's. and put that together with how marquez's body looked, i say its a no brainer. as a matter of fact, even these guys at higher weights that are being successful at advanced ages are suspect. james toney and antonio tarver come to mind as guys that were caught.

marquez seems like a very good man to me. very loyal and a good family man. however, the competitive nature in these guys is off the charts. its what makes them successful. and i have a hard time believing that a man who drank his own piss because he thought it would give him an advantage wouldnt take some PED's to help him succeed.
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checkleft
post Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 11:01 AM) *
It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez gave Pac was quadrupled in power because of Pac foolishly rushing in. You only have to look how Pac fell down. He fell face down from his position when he was hit down flat on the floor. Now take the Paul williams knockout in comparison. Identical punch but Paul got ktfo going timber on the direction the punch was aimed for. Look at the third Pac/Marquez fight around round 4. Pac was hit with the same knockout punch but no momentum so his chin withstood it. So yes I do think Pac's momentum doubled Marquez knockout punch with him rushing in. Nothing THAT unusual here folks.


However...

That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.


Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


You bring up a great discussion here w/ the different body builds (Bradley being buffer than marquez) but in boxing over time I've seen that its the slimmer fighters w/ more knockout power. See in boxing its more about torque and body motions not just physical strength. Look at guys like nonito or Pavlic who have barely any muscle tone at all and crack pretty hard. Corrales matthysse maidana (even though he has gotten bigger since the move up) mayweather at the lower weight classes had something like an 80% ko ratio. Being muscular in boxing doesn't necessarily convert to being powerful. Some people even say its a disadvantage, marquez did look slower and it definitely could have been because of the muscle built.
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mgrover
post Dec 13 2012, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 03:01 PM) *
That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.

Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


tbf i thought pac was leaning back slightly from that punch and was off balance but whatever
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daprofessor
post Dec 13 2012, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.


the bolded says it all...

plus, u have to take into account...pac has been on the decline. he's looked more and more human with each passing bout. when those reflexes slow down by a fraction of a second...this is what happens. anybody remember jones/tarver 2? jones has always been a highly athletic athlete. when that athleticism slowed down just a little bit...we all saw what happened. same applies to pac. he's always been extremely flawed and has gotten away with many mistakes because he lacks basic skills. marquez exploited that. so in my opinion...i believe it's a combination of jmm getting up for the fight...and pac's athletic ability diminishing just a bit.
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daprofessor
post Dec 13 2012, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM) *
You bring up a great discussion here w/ the different body builds (Bradley being buffer than marquez) but in boxing over time I've seen that its the slimmer fighters w/ more knockout power. See in boxing its more about torque and body motions not just physical strength. Look at guys like nonito or Pavlic who have barely any muscle tone at all and crack pretty hard. Corrales matthysse maidana (even though he has gotten bigger since the move up) mayweather at the lower weight classes had something like an 80% ko ratio. Being muscular in boxing doesn't necessarily convert to being powerful. Some people even say its a disadvantage, marquez did look slower and it definitely could have been because of the muscle built.


the difference in what i saw between this marquez...and the marquez of old...he was definitely loading up more on the shots and went about setting them up better in a more economical fashion. it's exactly what nacho said they were going to do. they were still going to box smart...but this time they wanted to hurt pac. last time they were looking to out point him. it's definitely a gamble because usually when u look for the knock out u get knocked out. he kept just enough of the boxing to be elusive and set up that shot. pac was clearly much more aggressive this time around and as a result he was more reckless. a lot of freddie roach fighters are guilty of this. it's a flaw that i noticed since day one. they focus more on offense than defense.
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