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> So Who Beats Floyd? Past or Present?
Jack 1000
post May 5 2013, 06:02 PM
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It would take a past legend to beat him from 147 to 154 and even that would not be easy. Today, can't see anyone beating Floyd. From the past, I would say Leonard could do it, probably Hearns as well. Duran, ONLY if he could show what he showed at Lightweight and the first Leonard fight. More than likely, it's a repeat of Duran quitting like in the second Leonard fight. Benitez might hold him to a draw. He kills Curry, Starling, Breland.

Robinson beats him because he was so good there is no second.

Jack
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MaxPayne
post May 14 2013, 09:56 AM
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I'm going to consider the following fighters:

Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Julio Caesar Chavez, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Pernell Whitaker. I'd like to include Roy Jones Jr. just for the mythical debate aspect, but then you might as well include Ali and Tyson.

I don't believe that you can be reliant on a jab to beat Floyd Mayweather. I've never, ever seen a fighter who is so effective at taking away Boxing's most basic and fundamental technique. Whether it's slipping, sliding, rolling or pulling back, jabs simply don't land on Floyd. There's a reason why the jab is generally abandoned by fighters as fights against Floyd go on. Why ? Because guys keep whiffing and then getting pull-countered with a right hand for their troubles.

Ergo, I don't believe Leonard or Hearns would have been able to beat Floyd. Hearns had a monstrous right hand, but relied on the jab to set it up. Leonard was an incredible combination puncher with excellent hand speed, but once again, relied on the jab to set up those shots.

Now, even assuming that Hearns and Leonard would land punches here and there, we still haven't asked the question about their respective defenses. Hearns took part in "The War", which tells you all about his willingness to leave his chin out there. Leonard while slick, was prone to being hit by flat footed shots (see the Hearns fights), let alone sharp shots that are thrown from angles with great timing. Leonard was also not nearly as defensively sound in the clinch or up close.

The other group of fights includes Chavez, Duran and Hagler. These were great warriors who used their physiques, conditioning and toughness to bull guys around the ring. I believe that against many fighters, this approach can work, especially when you are just able to relentlessly cut off the ring. There is an important contingency though: you're expecting the other guy's conditioning to ultimately fail him from exhaustion and being battered.

With Floyd, conditioning has never been a problem. He's also actually harder to hit in the clinch and up-close than he is at the center of the ring. Re-watch several of his fights and you'll see. None of these guys were also particularly defensively sound. They simply walked through shots. Could Floyd knock them out ? Doubtful. Would he win decisions though ? Absolutely.

That leaves us with the 2 men who I believe could have actually beaten Floyd: Pernell Whitaker and the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

So what is it about these 2 that makes them capable ? I'll outline it:

To beat Floyd, you need defense, timing and the ability to attack with lead power shots without the assistance of a jab.

You also need a great left-hand punch (right-handed power shots are a lot harder to land against the Modified Shell Defense). Pernell had his Straight Left Hand. SRR had his Left Hook.

Both men were superb defensively, to the point where it's conceivable that Floyd would have been frustrated into throwing an uncharacteristic shot that left him more open than usual. Add the ability to counter, and we're talking solid shots landing.

So I believe Pernell and SRR could have done it. However...

Who is to say that Floyd wouldn't have made that Round 3 adjustment and used a completely different set of skills to negate the above strategy ? It's entirely possible...

...and that's what makes Floyd special. As you really study him in the ring, the sheer range of his skills is somewhat baffling. There are stretches in a match where he will largely abandon the Modified Shell Defense and square up with both hands up. There are angled looks with both hands down where he's simply looking to slip and slide. Opponents are left trying different techniques as the rounds go by.

Such is the wizardry of the man.

Is he invincible ? No.

But he's about as close to invincible as we've ever seen.
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Posts in this topic
- Jack 1000   So Who Beats Floyd? Past or Present?   May 5 2013, 06:02 PM
- - hitman   robinson, duran, hearns and leonard. benitez woul...   May 5 2013, 06:35 PM
- - BrutUalBK   Hearns, Robinson and a Draw with Leonard but Duran...   May 5 2013, 06:58 PM
- - hitman   duran was not slow and was definitely not easy to ...   May 5 2013, 07:10 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 5 2013, 07:10 PM) dur...   May 5 2013, 07:15 PM
|- - hitman   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 5 2013, 08:15 PM) ...   May 5 2013, 07:40 PM
||- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 5 2013, 07:40 PM) dur...   May 5 2013, 10:13 PM
||- - hitman   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 5 2013, 11:13 PM) ...   May 6 2013, 01:33 PM
||- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 6 2013, 01:33 PM) Doe...   May 7 2013, 05:39 PM
|- - hitman   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 5 2013, 07:15 PM) ...   May 7 2013, 06:58 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 06:58 PM) ...   May 7 2013, 07:58 PM
|- - hitman   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 7 2013, 07:58 PM) ...   May 7 2013, 08:14 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 08:14 PM) ...   May 7 2013, 08:56 PM
- - Plah   SRR, Hearns, Forrest, The Hawk. I think he outp...   May 5 2013, 08:43 PM
- - checkleft   I think hearns length would be troublesome, I like...   May 5 2013, 10:44 PM
- - Jack 1000   I do think Pryor and a prime Arguello would have b...   May 5 2013, 11:34 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ May 5 2013, 11:34 PM) ...   May 5 2013, 11:53 PM
- - The Original MrFactor   Leonard, Hearns, Duran, 2006's Paul Williams, ...   May 6 2013, 12:31 AM
- - sduck   The problem with these kinds of matchmaking is tha...   May 6 2013, 03:15 AM
- - mitukczuk   The best defense of Pryor was his "i don...   May 6 2013, 03:32 AM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (mitukczuk @ May 6 2013, 04:32 AM) ...   May 6 2013, 03:10 PM
|- - Hotsauce   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 6 2013, 03:10 PM) Hm...   May 7 2013, 05:32 AM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (Hotsauce @ May 7 2013, 06:32 AM) h...   May 7 2013, 11:53 AM
|- - Hotsauce   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 7 2013, 11:53 AM) Re...   May 7 2013, 03:14 PM
- - Jovi   Marvin hagler- Anyone who steps in the ring with M...   May 6 2013, 06:12 AM
- - mgrover   can't see any of the current young guns beatin...   May 6 2013, 06:37 AM
|- - happygocampy   I agree with Robinson no doubt, i also like Duran ...   May 6 2013, 11:56 AM
- - daprofessor   the duran that beat leonard is the first guy that ...   May 6 2013, 02:45 PM
- - mrchitown   Aint no present fighter beating him As far as pas...   May 7 2013, 03:35 AM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (mrchitown @ May 7 2013, 03:35 AM) ...   May 7 2013, 06:12 AM
||- - mrchitown   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 7 2013, 06:12 AM) ...   May 7 2013, 11:55 PM
||- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (mrchitown @ May 7 2013, 11:55 PM) ...   May 8 2013, 03:27 PM
||- - daprofessor   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 8 2013, 04:27 PM) ...   May 8 2013, 08:58 PM
|||- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 8 2013, 08:58 PM...   May 8 2013, 09:37 PM
||- - mrchitown   QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 8 2013, 03:27 PM) ...   May 9 2013, 01:14 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mrchitown @ May 7 2013, 04:35 AM) ...   May 7 2013, 02:35 PM
|- - Jack 1000   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 7 2013, 02:35 PM...   May 7 2013, 05:12 PM
- - sduck   These are some good studies, may have a couple of ...   May 7 2013, 07:05 AM
- - hitman   i thought oscar looked his best vs. trinidad. his...   May 7 2013, 05:15 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 06:15 PM) i t...   May 7 2013, 06:58 PM
|- - hitman   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 7 2013, 06:58 PM...   May 7 2013, 07:00 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 08:00 PM) you...   May 7 2013, 07:13 PM
- - hitman   if you don't think duran had defense then you ...   May 7 2013, 05:51 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 05:51 PM) if ...   May 7 2013, 06:21 PM
- - hitman   funny how a guy with no defense would be featured ...   May 7 2013, 06:32 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 07:32 PM) fun...   May 7 2013, 06:51 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 06:32 PM) fun...   May 7 2013, 06:55 PM
- - Dolimite   You guys are sick! Only Manny Pacquiao can bea...   May 7 2013, 06:52 PM
- - hitman   no defense whatsoever...lack of D....too easy to h...   May 7 2013, 09:05 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (hitman @ May 7 2013, 09:05 PM) no ...   May 7 2013, 09:31 PM
- - sduck   I'm looking at the tapes and I think Duran wou...   May 9 2013, 04:21 AM
- - neophyte7   I agree with you that a prepared and focused Duran...   May 9 2013, 09:25 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (neophyte7 @ May 9 2013, 10:25 AM) ...   May 9 2013, 08:08 PM
- - neophyte7   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 9 2013, 09:08 PM...   May 9 2013, 09:23 PM
- - Jack 1000   Some past legends may give Floyd problems, As Flo...   May 10 2013, 12:11 AM
- - neophyte7   QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ May 10 2013, 01:11 AM)...   May 10 2013, 07:26 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (neophyte7 @ May 10 2013, 08:26 AM)...   May 10 2013, 04:13 PM
- - mgrover   The reason Floyd is on such another level I person...   May 10 2013, 04:17 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ May 10 2013, 05:17 PM) T...   May 10 2013, 04:19 PM
|- - mgrover   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 10 2013, 10:19 P...   May 10 2013, 04:38 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mgrover @ May 10 2013, 05:38 PM) Y...   May 10 2013, 07:09 PM
|- - Jack 1000   QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 10 2013, 07:09 P...   May 10 2013, 10:31 PM
|- - BrutUalBK   QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ May 10 2013, 10:31 PM)...   May 11 2013, 09:00 AM
- - scdrking2   People can not like him for various reasons, but g...   May 10 2013, 04:47 PM
- - BrutUalBK   In a subject-response talk with RingTV.com, Hearns...   May 12 2013, 06:27 PM
- - neophyte7   Man that was an awesome read. Much respect to Tomm...   May 12 2013, 08:51 PM
- - Genius   Unless those fighters agree to random blood and ur...   May 14 2013, 02:19 AM
- - mgrover   I can't see PAC competing in that era at that ...   May 14 2013, 06:04 AM
- - neophyte7   QUOTE (mgrover @ May 14 2013, 07:04 AM) I...   May 14 2013, 09:25 AM
- - MaxPayne   I'm going to consider the following fighters: ...   May 14 2013, 09:56 AM
- - sduck   QUOTE (MaxPayne @ May 14 2013, 09:56 AM) ...   May 15 2013, 12:55 PM


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