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The Original MrF...
post Jun 18 2013, 11:22 AM
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The more Bernard Hopkins beats up on young prime guys at 175, the more legit he makes the Calzaghe win for Calzaghe. Everyone says that Calzaghe beat a well past it Hopkins and its really starting to look like Hopkins is still very good. Hopkins was just a young 43 years old at the time. Maybe Calzaghe was really very good. Something to think about...

Antonio Tarver ruined Roy Jones Jr. Tarver was the 1st decent fighter Jones fought with a height and reach advantage. Jones was very uncomfortable because he was getting hit on his way out and cornered. No weight drain, issues. PUNCH issues. Tarver was hitting him where he normally didnt get hit in the 1st fight. The second fight, he got caught with a huge shot on his way out of a corner. When fighting smaller guys, the Jones trick works. Fighting a big southpaw who is gonna swing even if he hits air, cost him. He was/is gun shy ever since. Probably should have retired after the 1st fight. His legacy is shot.

Mayweather also has matchup issues with guys who are bigger than him, who can touch him on his way out. He's actually smart enough not to have made those matches. Margarito and Williams come to mind. He took the DLH fight for the $$ aspect. He lost rounds when Oscar used his reach with jabs and straights. Oscar could hit Mayweather at range. In the Alvarez fight, Floyd has a significant reach advantage. THATS why the fight got made. What Floyd is banking on is that Alvarez is slow and can be outworked at range for 12 rounds. He may have miscalculated, like many did with the Trout fight for Canelo. Canelo is deceptively fast. That speed also has teeth. Dont be shocked if Mayweather sees canvas and/or gets stopped. Trout was bigger and stronger(allegedly) and couldnt avaiod those deceptively fast return fire punches.

The Klit brothers are top 5 all time heavyweights. They beat a who's who of the division today. Of course the boo birds will come out and say the division aint shit now. Kinda tough to tell because the Klits have so dominated the era. Nobody has emerged because they've been beaten back so badly. If the Klits werent there, we'd posibly get some decent fights between decent fighters. The 90's heavyweights, Ray Mercer, Morrison, Holy, Tyson, Moorer, Foreman, Lewis, Bowe were good fighters. With the exception of Lewis and Bowe, the Klits dominate the rest of the division similarly to their dominance today. Same with the 80's and 70's. It will be 20 years down the line when we appreciate these guys for their skills and dominance.

BRONER(AKA Mayweather Jr Jr) will not eclipse Mayweather. He will not be given the free passes that Mayweather got coming up. He will have to fight the best guys at 147 and quickly because people have already seen his show and didn't really like it the 1st time around with his daddy. In actually fighting the best, he will get clipped. Its inevitable. You know the saying, "Fool me once..." The world will not empty their pockets for a clone of a guy.
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mgrover
post Jun 18 2013, 11:39 AM
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Joe never beat Hopkins, that fight was a gift for Joe. Which really only adds to the greatness of Hopkins.

It seems he had immense trouble making weight, and more and more fighters are paying the price for being drained. Look at Dawson.

Someone once said it, if Mayweather didn't have his freakishly long reach he wouldn't be the same fighter he is today. Am not saying the hard work didn't mean anything, you've got learn how to use that reach.

Really? I'd wonder what they'd do if they were in with real animals, not the tamed cats that are called the heavyweight division today.

Course he won't, the mans a fool, an immature fool whom I hope Paulie outboxes.

This post has been edited by mgrover: Jun 18 2013, 11:42 AM
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mitukczuk
post Jun 18 2013, 11:55 AM
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I disagree with almost everything you wrote, but that's ok.

B-Hop Issue - I am scoring that fight differently each time I watch it, so I am cool with Calzaghe taking the W...same as I would be cool with B-Hop taking it or the fight being a draw. I think that as long as B-Hop shits over his age his legacy only ill only grow. Calzaghe was good, but he didn't do anything historicaly significant. B-Hop was good in his 20's, 30's and 40's...it doesn't make a difference...

As for Roy Jones - The weight played a major part in his decline imo. Tarver was the right guy at the right place, which is not his fault....his victories are legit.

Mayweather - Prior to every fight I hear he might get knocked down or whatever....each guy since forever was supposed to have the ability to do terrible things to him...therefore I will never be worried until the fight starts and I see Floyd having troubles...that 0 is there for a reason. If the reason is his reach, so be it. It's the same thing with power, or speed....you can't teach that...you can only master it, Floyd did, Tyson did..thus they benefit(ed).

Klits - I like both of these guys. I think they would be a dominating force in any era.

Broner - not sold on him. Havent seen anything spectacular from him....

This post has been edited by mitukczuk: Jun 18 2013, 03:42 PM
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daprofessor
post Jun 18 2013, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jun 18 2013, 12:22 PM) *
The more Bernard Hopkins beats up on young prime guys at 175, the more legit he makes the Calzaghe win for Calzaghe. Everyone says that Calzaghe beat a well past it Hopkins and its really starting to look like Hopkins is still very good. Hopkins was just a young 43 years old at the time. Maybe Calzaghe was really very good. Something to think about...

Antonio Tarver ruined Roy Jones Jr. Tarver was the 1st decent fighter Jones fought with a height and reach advantage. Jones was very uncomfortable because he was getting hit on his way out and cornered. No weight drain, issues. PUNCH issues. Tarver was hitting him where he normally didnt get hit in the 1st fight. The second fight, he got caught with a huge shot on his way out of a corner. When fighting smaller guys, the Jones trick works. Fighting a big southpaw who is gonna swing even if he hits air, cost him. He was/is gun shy ever since. Probably should have retired after the 1st fight.
His legacy is shot.

Mayweather also has matchup issues with guys who are bigger than him, who can touch him on his way out. He's actually smart enough not to have made those matches. Margarito and Williams come to mind. He took the DLH fight for the $$ aspect. He lost rounds when Oscar used his reach with jabs and straights. Oscar could hit Mayweather at range. In the Alvarez fight, Floyd has a significant reach advantage. THATS why the fight got made. What Floyd is banking on is that Alvarez is slow and can be outworked at range for 12 rounds. He may have miscalculated, like many did with the Trout fight for Canelo. Canelo is deceptively fast. That speed also has teeth. Dont be shocked if Mayweather sees canvas and/or gets stopped. Trout was bigger and stronger(allegedly) and couldnt avaiod those deceptively fast return fire punches.

The Klit brothers are top 5 all time heavyweights. They beat a who's who of the division today. Of course the boo birds will come out and say the division aint shit now. Kinda tough to tell because the Klits have so dominated the era. Nobody has emerged because they've been beaten back so badly. If the Klits werent there, we'd posibly get some decent fights between decent fighters. The 90's heavyweights, Ray Mercer, Morrison, Holy, Tyson, Moorer, Foreman, Lewis, Bowe were good fighters. With the exception of Lewis and Bowe, the Klits dominate the rest of the division similarly to their dominance today. Same with the 80's and 70's. It will be 20 years down the line when we appreciate these guys for their skills and dominance.

BRONER(AKA Mayweather Jr Jr) will not eclipse Mayweather. He will not be given the free passes that Mayweather got coming up. He will have to fight the best guys at 147 and quickly because people have already seen his show and didn't really like it the 1st time around with his daddy. In actually fighting the best, he will get clipped. Its inevitable. You know the saying, "Fool me once..." The world will not empty their pockets for a clone of a guy.



i agree with all the bolded...i don't agree that rjj's legacy is shot. no one can undo what he did prior to tarver. he's sealed his spot in the hof. i also disagree about ppl miscalculating the canelo/trout fight. i had trout winning. that was some bullshit they pulled in texas.

as for the klits...top 5 all time? let's see...

jack dempsey
jack johnson
joe louis
ali
holmes
tyson
holyfield

they're clearly the best of this era...but that isn't saying much. good post.
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daprofessor
post Jun 18 2013, 02:28 PM
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since we're on random thoughts...i may as well post this here instead of creating a new thread.

fighters/trainers/managers and promoters need to learn to rebuild fighters.

juanma coming off of two losses...then two easy wins and gets thrown right back into the lions den. not a good thing. 3 ko losses in his last 5 fights is not the way to rebuild a guy. it's clear he has things to work out...issues to be resolved. these things take time. i know hindsight is 20/20 but the same can be said for angulo and amir khan. the problem is these guys aren't willing to take short money to go back to the drawing board. sometimes it's in their best interest to fly off the radar, off television, to develop properly. your flaw has been exposed for the world to see. it's not going to be corrected in one camp. there are lessons you need to learn. an immediate rematch is not necessary if you intend to have a long career. while it might seem like the brave thing to do...it isn't always the smartest thing to do seth mitchell. what's the rush? take your time chad dawson. you can bounce back from this stuff if you have the patience and understanding.

promoters cannot have the best interest of all the fighters. it's impossible. it's up to the managers and trainers to say no sometimes. it's not a crime. there's nothing wrong with him taking some easy fights while he works out his issues and fixes his flaws.
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The Original MrF...
post Jun 18 2013, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 03:10 PM) *
i agree with all the bolded...i don't agree that rjj's legacy is shot. no one can undo what he did prior to tarver. he's sealed his spot in the hof. i also disagree about ppl miscalculating the canelo/trout fight. i had trout winning. that was some bullshit they pulled in texas.

as for the klits...top 5 all time? let's see...

jack dempsey
jack johnson
joe louis
ali
holmes
tyson
holyfield

they're clearly the best of this era...but that isn't saying much. good post.


I agree with Trout winning. I thought he won more rounds than Alverez. Where I miscalculated was Alverez' speed. he was cleartly faster than Trout AND faster than most expected. Thats what really made the fight interesting because I thought Trout would Cotto, Alverez and it turned out to be a very different fight. Alverez is a very fast kid and its deceptive because of the style he fights. Thats all I'm saying. If Guerrero, Cotto and Ortiz can get Mayweather up against the ropes, Alverez will too. Dare I say, Alverez is bigger, stronger and faster and more resilient than the above guys. If Mayweather wins, he's gonna have his lumps because he will get hit.

Canelo's weakness is his body. Everyone thought he was gassed in the Trout fight. He wasnt gassed.Trout caught him around the kidneys and Canelo backed of. It was in the mid rounds. Canelo's activity came to a halt because of that. It effected him and Trout, nor his corner bothered to notice Canelo's body language. He was hurt bad and it showed when he kinda twisted to the side and backed up. Dumb ass commentators didnt notice it either. If Mayweather has any success in close quarters, he's should tap that body.
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mitukczuk
post Jun 18 2013, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 02:10 PM) *
i don't agree that rjj's legacy is shot. no one can undo what he did prior to tarver. he's sealed his spot in the hof.


+1
I mean...the guy started at what...Jr Middle? and won a HW title !!
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The Original MrF...
post Jun 18 2013, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 03:28 PM) *
since we're on random thoughts...i may as well post this here instead of creating a new thread.

fighters/trainers/managers and promoters need to learn to rebuild fighters.

juanma coming off of two losses...then two easy wins and gets thrown right back into the lions den. not a good thing. 3 ko losses in his last 5 fights is not the way to rebuild a guy. it's clear he has things to work out...issues to be resolved. these things take time. i know hindsight is 20/20 but the same can be said for angulo and amir khan. the problem is these guys aren't willing to take short money to go back to the drawing board. sometimes it's in their best interest to fly off the radar, off television, to develop properly. your flaw has been exposed for the world to see. it's not going to be corrected in one camp. there are lessons you need to learn. an immediate rematch is not necessary if you intend to have a long career. while it might seem like the brave thing to do...it isn't always the smartest thing to do seth mitchell. what's the rush? take your time chad dawson. you can bounce back from this stuff if you have the patience and understanding.

promoters cannot have the best interest of all the fighters. it's impossible. it's up to the managers and trainers to say no sometimes. it's not a crime. there's nothing wrong with him taking some easy fights while he works out his issues and fixes his flaws.



I agree. Juanma should have been brought back slowly. He got way to much too soon after devastating losses. I questioned the matchmaking for last Saturday. He hadnt fought in a year and they threw him in with the guy who KO'd the guy who KO'd him. Not too bright. I think thi kid i finished as a top fighter. Too bad too. I liked his style, but he had his issues.

Chad Dawson is another guy who i saw as a KO waiting to happen. I think he's done as a top guy and he may even be a little punch drunk. His speech is deteriorating. Let me be the first to say, that Dawson has been done for a while. It wasnt Ward who did him in. It certainly contributed, but Dawson is not a fighter. He's lacked aggression and a passion for the game. You can see it by the way he's very passive in his fights. Doesnt really have a killer instinct and never has. He's not the Alpha male. Just not him. Not his personality. he went a stretch where he was fighting the oldest guys in the division. Then he fights 2 youn lions and gets starched soundly. He's been done...
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The Original MrF...
post Jun 18 2013, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Jun 18 2013, 04:44 PM) *
+1
I mean...the guy started at what...Jr Middle? and won a HW title !!



No question that RJJ is a hall of famer. Do you still look at him the same way you did after the HW championship fight? I don't. The losses mean something to me. Its not even so much the losses, it how he lost those fights and to who he lost them to. Did he slip that much, that fast OR was something exposed in the Tarver fights that we hadnt seen before? Had RJJ ever fought a southpaw with a height and reach advantage that could box and crack? The answer is NO. The tale of the tape tells a story about a little fast guy darting in and getting hit on his way in. While inside he was able to throw some quick combo's but couldnt get out without taking return fire and thus ending up an the ropes and taking more leather. I think the weight issue was just an excuse.
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mitukczuk
post Jun 18 2013, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jun 18 2013, 03:58 PM) *
No question that RJJ is a hall of famer. Do you still look at him the same way you did after the HW championship fight? I don't. The losses mean something to me. Its not even so much the losses, it how he lost those fights and to who he lost them to. Did he slip that much, that fast OR was something exposed in the Tarver fights that we hadnt seen before? Had RJJ ever fought a southpaw with a height and reach advantage that could box and crack? The answer is NO. The tale of the tape tells a story about a little fast guy darting in and getting hit on his way in. While inside he was able to throw some quick combo's but couldnt get out without taking return fire and thus ending up an the ropes and taking more leather. I think the weight issue was just an excuse.


You definitely have a point. BUT...though the weight might not be the whole story....there are scientific and experience proofs that losing that much weight (muscle - which is worse, fat or water) has a negative effect on the body. And Roy had to deal with all of them in lil bit over half a year - that's harsh and very risky, but again..it was his dumb decision so no excuses. This cannot be denied. However...I think Tarver really was the right guy at the right place and he got to Roy, wasn't affraid of him and deserved his victories and I think he would have a solid chance even against prime Roy - no question about it. I love upsets and when I saw Tarver KO Roy it was an awesome moment for me as a boxing fan. The other loses further stem from Roy losing his step and from him not knowing that he can't compete on the highest level anymore. Jones benefited from his reflexes but I tell people over and over...that's not boxing. You can't base your game only on reflexes and speed. These things diminish with time and you gotta have a plan B and C....same with SRL. These guys were in a way terribly one dimensional...

But again...you do have a point man. Good thread!

This post has been edited by mitukczuk: Jun 18 2013, 04:12 PM
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