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> rate these great fighters, based on boxing accomplishments
daprofessor
post Jul 10 2013, 09:29 PM
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muhammad ali
roberto duran
alexis arguello
george foreman
joe frazier
tommy hearns
ray leonard
marvin hagler
salvador sanchez
wilfredo benitez
aaron pryor
wilfredo gomez
mike tyson
evander holyfield
lennox lewis
ricardo lopez
julio cesar chavez
roy jones jr
james toney
larry holmes
felix trinidad
pernell whitaker
bernard hopkins
floyd mayweather
manny pacquiao
erik morales
juan manuel marquez
marco antonio barrera
azuma nelson
hector camacho

This post has been edited by daprofessor: Jul 10 2013, 09:30 PM
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klonopinz
post Jul 14 2013, 12:13 AM
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to each his own, i am in no way challenging any other persons selections or even disagreeing, i jsut would like to know your reasoning for having arron pryor and wilfredo benitez so high, especially when they both only really won big fights against 2 guys, arguello and duran. yet they are so high on the list, i understand benitez is like the youngest champion in history, like 17 or some shit for a world title. but other than that, he basically threw his career and GOAT potential away in my eyes. hell, the kid even got KTFO by moore, who duran KTFO and career killed him. pryor blew out his weight class, and went up and lost, but eveeryone on here has done that, but cleaning out a weight class isnt enough in my eyes to jsutify you over duran and chavez sr, who blew out multiple weight classes and duran winning fights in 5 different decades. i just want to see things from your perspective
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Dolimite
post Jul 14 2013, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 13 2013, 10:13 PM) *
to each his own, i am in no way challenging any other persons selections or even disagreeing, i jsut would like to know your reasoning for having arron pryor and wilfredo benitez so high, especially when they both only really won big fights against 2 guys, arguello and duran. yet they are so high on the list, i understand benitez is like the youngest champion in history, like 17 or some shit for a world title. but other than that, he basically threw his career and GOAT potential away in my eyes. hell, the kid even got KTFO by moore, who duran KTFO and career killed him. pryor blew out his weight class, and went up and lost, but eveeryone on here has done that, but cleaning out a weight class isnt enough in my eyes to jsutify you over duran and chavez sr, who blew out multiple weight classes and duran winning fights in 5 different decades. i just want to see things from your perspective

Aaron Pryor is one of my favorite fighters of the past and I believe he was cheated in some of his fights. Chavez Sr. got gift decisions and virtually fought no namers in the early part of his career. That 100 plus wins is bullshit in my eyes. Duran was a beast and so was Arguello, you act like those two guys are just everyday fighters. Those two names on a resume can kill most boxers resumes today. I just don't see the big deal about Chavez Sr. He fought like a typical Mexican fighter, come straight forward and bang, he had a hell of a chin, but come on, go back and really study his entire career. And each fight is different, just because one fighter had success against another fighter doesn't mean the same fighter will repeat what the other fighter has done. triangle theories.

I respect Duran, I honestly do, he is the greatest Latin fighter in my opinion. But if we are looking at a body of work I think Aaron Pryor did more. And let's look at Duran's wins in those divisions.
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klonopinz
post Jul 14 2013, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 14 2013, 09:21 AM) *
Aaron Pryor is one of my favorite fighters of the past and I believe he was cheated in some of his fights. Chavez Sr. got gift decisions and virtually fought no namers in the early part of his career. That 100 plus wins is bullshit in my eyes. Duran was a beast and so was Arguello, you act like those two guys are just everyday fighters. Those two names on a resume can kill most boxers resumes today. I just don't see the big deal about Chavez Sr. He fought like a typical Mexican fighter, come straight forward and bang, he had a hell of a chin, but come on, go back and really study his entire career. And each fight is different, just because one fighter had success against another fighter doesn't mean the same fighter will repeat what the other fighter has done. triangle theories.

I respect Duran, I honestly do, he is the greatest Latin fighter in my opinion. But if we are looking at a body of work I think Aaron Pryor did more. And let's look at Duran's wins in those divisions.


i realize now that we all are probably guilty of ranking our favorite fighters higher than they should be, which is why i like to see things from others views. i thought u most likely put pryor up there because you loved him, he was truly exceptional. I dont think ive ever seen a more aggressive fighter from that era. I am also talking about body of work when i said duran was higher on my list then pryor, but what i was talking about was more about longevity. duran did the same thing pryor did in the 80s in the 140 division, but in the 135 division in the 70s, but not only that, he went up 3 more weight classes and fucked with the big dawgs and won titles, which pryor never was able to accomplish.

almost all GOAT fighters fought nobodies in the beginning of their career, thats just how the fight game goes man, you gota work your way up lol, and why is it bullshit? it takes alot out of you to fight that many times that often each year and keep winning, and he was knocking out champions man, like roger mayweather and macho comacho. not nobodies. if you will, you could say the same about pryor, we dont recongize every single name on his resume ,but i dont say that they dont count, no just because WE dont recognize them doesnt mean they werent legit contenders at that time. you cant just say that its bullshit and doesnt count. the gift decisions didnt happen until he became a star, and let me tell you almost all big boxing stars are guilty of gift decisions in their careers, its because theirs too much on the line financially. its a business, and sometimes a decision swinging one way is the result of keeping the business alive. i know you understand this. even then, if you wanna try to taint chavez legacy by bringing up gift decisions, then we can bring up the magic bottle incident that pryor almost got in trouble for. The whole asthma medicine being put into water so that late fight pryors lungs would open up and give him a second wind, i dont know if i beleive it or not, but either way its a taint on his legacy.

and i dont act like arguello and duran are everyday fighters, in fact i have them very high on my list. What i meant was that those are the only really big names they beat. The reason i brought up the moore fight was because duran also lost to some of the same guys, but he also beat the shit out of guys benitez couldnt beat. benitez didnt beat anybody that beat duran, yet duran koed them and was able to outbox and knockdown others. i just dont think beating one big name qualifies you to be over guys that beat multiple big names in multiple divisions in multiple generations. thats one thing im talking about, pryor and benitez are guys who lasted one era of boxing, the 80 more or less. all the other GOATs were in at least 2 eras.
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Dolimite
post Jul 14 2013, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 14 2013, 04:23 PM) *
i realize now that we all are probably guilty of ranking our favorite fighters higher than they should be, which is why i like to see things from others views. i thought u most likely put pryor up there because you loved him, he was truly exceptional. I dont think ive ever seen a more aggressive fighter from that era. I am also talking about body of work when i said duran was higher on my list then pryor, but what i was talking about was more about longevity. duran did the same thing pryor did in the 80s in the 140 division, but in the 135 division in the 70s, but not only that, he went up 3 more weight classes and fucked with the big dawgs and won titles, which pryor never was able to accomplish.

almost all GOAT fighters fought nobodies in the beginning of their career, thats just how the fight game goes man, you gota work your way up lol, and why is it bullshit? it takes alot out of you to fight that many times that often each year and keep winning, and he was knocking out champions man, like roger mayweather and macho comacho. not nobodies. if you will, you could say the same about pryor, we dont recongize every single name on his resume ,but i dont say that they dont count, no just because WE dont recognize them doesnt mean they werent legit contenders at that time. you cant just say that its bullshit and doesnt count. the gift decisions didnt happen until he became a star, and let me tell you almost all big boxing stars are guilty of gift decisions in their careers, its because theirs too much on the line financially. its a business, and sometimes a decision swinging one way is the result of keeping the business alive. i know you understand this. even then, if you wanna try to taint chavez legacy by bringing up gift decisions, then we can bring up the magic bottle incident that pryor almost got in trouble for. The whole asthma medicine being put into water so that late fight pryors lungs would open up and give him a second wind, i dont know if i beleive it or not, but either way its a taint on his legacy.

and i dont act like arguello and duran are everyday fighters, in fact i have them very high on my list. What i meant was that those are the only really big names they beat. The reason i brought up the moore fight was because duran also lost to some of the same guys, but he also beat the shit out of guys benitez couldnt beat. benitez didnt beat anybody that beat duran, yet duran koed them and was able to outbox and knockdown others. i just dont think beating one big name qualifies you to be over guys that beat multiple big names in multiple divisions in multiple generations. thats one thing im talking about, pryor and benitez are guys who lasted one era of boxing, the 80 more or less. all the other GOATs were in at least 2 eras.

I understand Duran was around for a minute, but that just because he didn't leave the game when he probably should of. Haglar left earlier and is still considered a great. I think Duran was natural bigger than Pryor and to be honest, he could handle that weight. Duran carried his power to the upper division and I don't think Pryor could handle the bigger guys at a higher weight. Some fighters just do not transition to the higher weights. I don't think I should punish a fighter for not being able to make a jump to the higher weights. Floyd is a perfect welter weight and would dominate at jr, welter weight. If he moved up any higher he would get punished. They like to compare Floyd to SRR but SRR started his career at 147, so he could move naturally up. When Roy Jones moved up to heavy weight it ruined his career, when James Tony moved up in weight it destroyed his career.

When Chavez fought Sweet Pea in San Anton it was a clear fucking lost! And I started to notice, anytime a fight was remotely close he would win. I just do not rank Chavez high. Camacho in my opinion was an okay fighter, not great, but okay. He was known more for his outfits than his boxing. Arguello won a championship at 17!!!! Come on, that is spectacular. If you look at Canelo Alvarez he has fought 42 fighters and only 1 had a belt. That is how I view Chavez Jr. He had lots of fights in Mexico. It like Pacquiao getting his name up in the Philippines, knocking out guys you never heard of. However, he earned his stripes by fighting three of the best Mexican fighters at the time. Now I do think he lost to Barrera but hell who am I. I just think we have to really look at fighters career and comb through them carefully and look at all aspects of their fights and careers. the reason why Mayweather is not in my top ten or five is because he isn't done fighting. So we shall see what his career looks like two years from now.
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klonopinz
post Jul 15 2013, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 14 2013, 08:46 PM) *
I understand Duran was around for a minute, but that just because he didn't leave the game when he probably should of. Haglar left earlier and is still considered a great. I think Duran was natural bigger than Pryor and to be honest, he could handle that weight. Duran carried his power to the upper division and I don't think Pryor could handle the bigger guys at a higher weight. Some fighters just do not transition to the higher weights. I don't think I should punish a fighter for not being able to make a jump to the higher weights. Floyd is a perfect welter weight and would dominate at jr, welter weight. If he moved up any higher he would get punished. They like to compare Floyd to SRR but SRR started his career at 147, so he could move naturally up. When Roy Jones moved up to heavy weight it ruined his career, when James Tony moved up in weight it destroyed his career.

When Chavez fought Sweet Pea in San Anton it was a clear fucking lost! And I started to notice, anytime a fight was remotely close he would win. I just do not rank Chavez high. Camacho in my opinion was an okay fighter, not great, but okay. He was known more for his outfits than his boxing. Arguello won a championship at 17!!!! Come on, that is spectacular. If you look at Canelo Alvarez he has fought 42 fighters and only 1 had a belt. That is how I view Chavez Jr. He had lots of fights in Mexico. It like Pacquiao getting his name up in the Philippines, knocking out guys you never heard of. However, he earned his stripes by fighting three of the best Mexican fighters at the time. Now I do think he lost to Barrera but hell who am I. I just think we have to really look at fighters career and comb through them carefully and look at all aspects of their fights and careers. the reason why Mayweather is not in my top ten or five is because he isn't done fighting. So we shall see what his career looks like two years from now.


First of all my friend, i know you dont do this on purpose, but please try not to get a fighters name wrong and/or confuse him with another fighter when your trying to defend him in an argument lol

floyd mayweather is not a natural welterwieght jsut like pacquiao, and duran was not a natural middleweight. They became those weights because thats what theire bodies eventually worked into, but it took them years and years of work to slowly grow into those weights. floyd walks around at his fighting weight, he cannot go any higher in weight, he was a natural 130 punder and stayed under welterweight un til 2006. the fatc that your even talking about him going up higher means your reading too much into the bullshit that all these fake floyd fans are spewing, forget all that nonsense. robinson actually started his career as a lightweight. the fact that you mentioned roy jones and james toney sucking at higher weights, is exactly the point im getting at, only the truly exceptional fighters have conquered multiple weight classes, and ok so you might not knock pryor for not being able to handle the big fish pond, then you must commend guys like duran and mayweather that have done it multiples times and beaten the tp guys to win titles in 4 and 5 different weight classes.

durans skillset is what allowed him to win at higher weights, only the truly skilled boxers can do this, thats why when guys like jones and toney moved up they sucked, because they relied on their physical gifts like power and speed. thats why duran and mayweather are top ten GOATs because they utilized skills to win titles in higher weight classes. durans defense, ring IQ and experience allowed him to accomplish that, not his power.

Most importantly, what you said about chavez couldnt be more wrong. he is nothing like canelo. chavez fought all these champions in their prime and beat them all excpet whitaker, randall and de la hoya. he avenged his lost to randall by KO:

roger mayweather, a 2 time champion in 2 diferent weight classes
juan laporte, a featherweight champion who lost to two future GOATs, sanchez and gomez
rocky lockridge, a super featherweight champ who KOd uncle roger in 1st round, then lost to GOST gomez
edwin rosario, a 3 time lightweight world champion, and 1 time junior welter champ too i think?
frankie randal, 3 time light welter champion
sammy fuentes, wbo light welter champ
giovani parisi, lightweight and light welter champ
greg haugen, lightweight and light welter champ
macho camacho, super feather, lightweight, and light welter champ, future GOAT
Lonnie smith, wbc light welter champ
jose luis ramirez, im sure you know this guy, he is a 2 time wbc lightweight champ, lost to GOAT arguello
pernell whitaker, i agree with you he lost the fight, undisputed lgithweight champ, light welter and welter champ
rafael limon, 2 time super feather champ, lost to GOAT arguello
meldrick taylor, light welter and welter champ
tony lopez, super feather and lightweight champ
oscar de la hoya, super feather, lightweight, light welter, welter, light middle, and middleweight world champion

this contender deserves honorablke mention
ruben castillo, 3 time contender who lost his title fights to future GOATs, arguello, sanchez, and chavez himself


do some homework before you say something stupid like chavez is like canelo fighting nobodies and false champs. in fact these guys were mostly two time champs or two division champs.

As i said before, just because YOU NEVER HEARD OF THEM, dont mean they werent real champions from the 80s, because they were. If you think arguello and whitaker are great, then you should know one or two of these men at least.
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Dolimite
post Jul 15 2013, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 15 2013, 03:58 AM) *
First of all my friend, i know you dont do this on purpose, but please try not to get a fighters name wrong and/or confuse him with another fighter when your trying to defend him in an argument lol

floyd mayweather is not a natural welterwieght jsut like pacquiao, and duran was not a natural middleweight. They became those weights because thats what theire bodies eventually worked into, but it took them years and years of work to slowly grow into those weights. floyd walks around at his fighting weight, he cannot go any higher in weight, he was a natural 130 punder and stayed under welterweight un til 2006. the fatc that your even talking about him going up higher means your reading too much into the bullshit that all these fake floyd fans are spewing, forget all that nonsense. robinson actually started his career as a lightweight. the fact that you mentioned roy jones and james toney sucking at higher weights, is exactly the point im getting at, only the truly exceptional fighters have conquered multiple weight classes, and ok so you might not knock pryor for not being able to handle the big fish pond, then you must commend guys like duran and mayweather that have done it multiples times and beaten the tp guys to win titles in 4 and 5 different weight classes.

durans skillset is what allowed him to win at higher weights, only the truly skilled boxers can do this, thats why when guys like jones and toney moved up they sucked, because they relied on their physical gifts like power and speed. thats why duran and mayweather are top ten GOATs because they utilized skills to win titles in higher weight classes. durans defense, ring IQ and experience allowed him to accomplish that, not his power.

Most importantly, what you said about chavez couldnt be more wrong. he is nothing like canelo. chavez fought all these champions in their prime and beat them all excpet whitaker, randall and de la hoya. he avenged his lost to randall by KO:

roger mayweather, a 2 time champion in 2 diferent weight classes
juan laporte, a featherweight champion who lost to two future GOATs, sanchez and gomez
rocky lockridge, a super featherweight champ who KOd uncle roger in 1st round, then lost to GOST gomez
edwin rosario, a 3 time lightweight world champion, and 1 time junior welter champ too i think?
frankie randal, 3 time light welter champion
sammy fuentes, wbo light welter champ
giovani parisi, lightweight and light welter champ
greg haugen, lightweight and light welter champ
macho camacho, super feather, lightweight, and light welter champ, future GOAT
Lonnie smith, wbc light welter champ
jose luis ramirez, im sure you know this guy, he is a 2 time wbc lightweight champ, lost to GOAT arguello
pernell whitaker, i agree with you he lost the fight, undisputed lgithweight champ, light welter and welter champ
rafael limon, 2 time super feather champ, lost to GOAT arguello
meldrick taylor, light welter and welter champ
tony lopez, super feather and lightweight champ
oscar de la hoya, super feather, lightweight, light welter, welter, light middle, and middleweight world champion

this contender deserves honorablke mention
ruben castillo, 3 time contender who lost his title fights to future GOATs, arguello, sanchez, and chavez himself


do some homework before you say something stupid like chavez is like canelo fighting nobodies and false champs. in fact these guys were mostly two time champs or two division champs.

As i said before, just because YOU NEVER HEARD OF THEM, dont mean they werent real champions from the 80s, because they were. If you think arguello and whitaker are great, then you should know one or two of these men at least.

I said Chavez in his early career when he was fighting in Mexico was fighting no named fighters. The same as Canelo, they built this amazing fan base in Mexico and it spread. I am sorry, but I am not sold on Chavez Sr. Those are some nice names but he fought a hell of a lot more people than they, and he lost to Pernell and that Taylor stoppage was bullshit. Also when he fought Oscar he was way past his prime. Chavez was a hell of a fighter, I am not denying that but again I am taking in the totality of their career. Chavez should of lost some of those fights. Star or not. Doesn't change the fact.

Yes Benitez won the title at 17, typo. I stand by my list and why they are there. Floyd will be ranked higher, I just need to see how he finishes his career. If that makes me a fanboy or nuthugger than so be it. And like I said in my first post, I am not happy about the list but so far it was what I came up with. As for now it stays where it is.
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- daprofessor   rate these great fighters   Jul 10 2013, 09:29 PM
- - daprofessor   these are all the fighters i could think of that i...   Jul 10 2013, 09:29 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 10 2013, 09:29 P...   Jul 11 2013, 01:47 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jul 11 2013, 02:47 AM)...   Jul 11 2013, 02:35 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 11 2013, 02:35 P...   Jul 11 2013, 03:37 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jul 11 2013, 04:37 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 04:31 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 11 2013, 04:31 P...   Jul 11 2013, 06:32 PM
- - klonopinz   you only mentioned from late 70s onward, ill add ...   Jul 10 2013, 10:23 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 10 2013, 10:23 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 01:43 AM
|- - bnoles4life   QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jul 11 2013, 02:43 AM)...   Jul 11 2013, 08:59 AM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jul 11 2013, 08:59 A...   Jul 11 2013, 03:35 PM
- - klonopinz   do you mean list them in order of greatness or tal...   Jul 10 2013, 10:28 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 10 2013, 11:28 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 02:06 PM
- - Plah   Nice thread, this will keep me busy for a while   Jul 10 2013, 11:14 PM
- - Cshel86   Fuck...I have to split this shit up in eras. I ope...   Jul 11 2013, 07:48 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jul 11 2013, 08:48 AM) F...   Jul 11 2013, 02:37 PM
- - Dolimite   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 10 2013, 07:29 P...   Jul 11 2013, 09:35 AM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 11 2013, 10:35 AM) ...   Jul 11 2013, 02:38 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jul 11 2013, 07:48 AM) F...   Jul 11 2013, 12:59 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Jul 11 2013, 01:59 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 02:40 PM
- - klonopinz   im going to do this in weight classes starting wit...   Jul 11 2013, 03:13 PM
- - klonopinz   we could go on for days abut his "besting...   Jul 11 2013, 04:00 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 11 2013, 05:00 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 04:33 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 11 2013, 04:00 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 06:28 PM
|- - Cshel86   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 11 2013, 05:00 PM)...   Jul 12 2013, 03:01 PM
- - klonopinz   if you wanna put whitaker on there then de la hoya...   Jul 11 2013, 04:16 PM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 11 2013, 04:16 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 06:31 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 11 2013, 02:40 P...   Jul 11 2013, 06:19 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (checkleft @ Jul 11 2013, 07:19 PM)...   Jul 11 2013, 06:31 PM
- - checkleft   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 11 2013, 06:31 P...   Jul 11 2013, 07:58 PM
- - klonopinz   im sorry dawg. but i jsut am so used to everyone o...   Jul 12 2013, 04:32 AM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 12 2013, 04:32 AM)...   Jul 12 2013, 02:27 PM
|- - anthonyaccurate   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 12 2013, 05:32 AM)...   Jul 14 2013, 05:45 PM
- - klonopinz   but i will take that hug if its a legit offer lol   Jul 12 2013, 04:34 AM
|- - mrchitown   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 12 2013, 04:34 AM)...   Jul 12 2013, 02:28 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jul 12 2013, 03:28 PM)...   Jul 12 2013, 02:29 PM
- - klonopinz   you can see the legit anger behind that line with ...   Jul 13 2013, 12:14 AM
|- - Plah   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 13 2013, 01:14 AM)...   Jul 13 2013, 01:25 PM
- - Dolimite   QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jul 10 2013, 06:29 P...   Jul 13 2013, 10:21 PM
- - klonopinz   to each his own, i am in no way challenging any ot...   Jul 14 2013, 12:13 AM
|- - Dolimite   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 13 2013, 10:13 PM)...   Jul 14 2013, 08:21 AM
|- - klonopinz   QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 14 2013, 09:21 AM) ...   Jul 14 2013, 07:23 PM
|- - Dolimite   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 14 2013, 04:23 PM)...   Jul 14 2013, 07:46 PM
|- - daprofessor   QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 14 2013, 08:46 PM) ...   Jul 14 2013, 10:29 PM
|- - klonopinz   QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jul 14 2013, 08:46 PM) ...   Jul 15 2013, 05:58 AM
|- - Dolimite   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 15 2013, 03:58 AM)...   Jul 15 2013, 10:22 AM
- - klonopinz   first off, im done agruing about this bullshit its...   Jul 14 2013, 06:14 PM
- - klonopinz   name me one single fighter who comes from a dirt p...   Jul 16 2013, 03:33 PM
|- - Dolimite   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 16 2013, 12:33 PM)...   Jul 17 2013, 10:03 PM
- - Cshel86   QUOTE (klonopinz @ Jul 15 2013, 06:58 AM)...   Jul 18 2013, 08:47 AM


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