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> Is Floyd the first boxing savant?
Aware
post Mar 10 2014, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (readydog72 @ Mar 10 2014, 10:34 PM) *
oh i see now whats up with this thread for sure.

that's 3 fighters who got shots in on Floyd that mattered. He may have lost 4/36 rounds.
The corley fight was before he started hand picking the likes of Guerrero, Ortiz, Marquez, Hatton, Baldomir and now Maidana.

I believe Floyd is one of the Top 3 fighters 130-154 of all-time but Savant that's going too far. Maybe if he trains another fighter to do what he has then maybe.


You just don't get it...
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readydog72
post Mar 10 2014, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (Aware @ Mar 11 2014, 12:04 AM) *
You just don't get it...


I do get it and you dont have to keep making it seem like i don't cause i dont agree with all you guys are typing. Savant is like the best ever; know all see all.
it just feel it tough for me to label him as such when he hasn't been "officially" knocked down or struggled. Yes you pick out a couple fights but he still owned them.


the thread label is in question format, so no.
Floyd the boxer is one of my all-time favorites but i should still be able to post my opinion without having to face the insults.
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Aware
post Mar 10 2014, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (readydog72 @ Mar 11 2014, 12:33 AM) *
I do get it and you dont have to keep making it seem like i don't cause i dont agree with all you guys are typing. Savant is like the best ever; know all see all.
it just feel it tough for me to label him as such when he hasn't been "officially" knocked down or struggled. Yes you pick out a couple fights but he still owned them.


the thread label is in question format, so no.
Floyd the boxer is one of my all-time favorites but i should still be able to post my opinion without having to face the insults.



Our problem lies in our definition of savant. To me a savant is someone who seems to be born with an unimaginable amount of natural talent in a specific field. I do believe he is the most talented fighter there has ever been, but this is boxing and fighters like Sugar Ray Robinson and Thomas Hearns would have a great chance to beat him. Not arguing he's the best ever, just the most talented and it's not even close. People just can't fathom that, but it's true.

This post has been edited by Aware: Mar 11 2014, 12:07 AM
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readydog72
post Mar 11 2014, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (Aware @ Mar 11 2014, 12:52 AM) *
Our problem lies in our definition of savant. To me a savant is someone who seems to be born with an unimaginable amount of natural talent in a specific field. I do believe he is the most talented fighter there has ever been, but this is boxing and fighters like Sugar Ray Robinson and Thomas Hearns would have a great chance to beat him. Not arguing he's the best ever, just the most talented and it's not even close. People just can't fathom that, but it's true.


History is just that history. Boxing was more slugging in Robinson's day. What Floyd has in front of him now doesn't measure up. I was joking earlier about Ali and Roy but if you look at it, Roy had the same issue but didn't approach it like Floyd has. I think Roy had more natural talent than anyone but was as near fundamentally sound as Floyd. Floyd work ethic in the gym is off the charts as well.
Roy had nobody to fight, got bored and started doing crazy stuff. All of the above mentioned had gifts that others didn't. Ali could actually make people walk right into his uppercut. Roy could just go against all fundamentals; then there is Floyd, He takes fighters that are elite fighters against the field and makes them look mediocre through his adjustments.
IF, the power was in the belts we would get a chance to see other fights made. In these fights you would get more wild and random match-ups to give us a wider scope to see a Savant.

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Aware
post Mar 11 2014, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (readydog72 @ Mar 11 2014, 12:25 AM) *
History is just that history. Boxing was more slugging in Robinson's day. What Floyd has in front of him now doesn't measure up. I was joking earlier about Ali and Roy but if you look at it, Roy had the same issue but didn't approach it like Floyd has. I think Roy had more natural talent than anyone but was as near fundamentally sound as Floyd. Floyd work ethic in the gym is off the charts as well.
Roy had nobody to fight, got bored and started doing crazy stuff. All of the above mentioned had gifts that others didn't. Ali could actually make people walk right into his uppercut. Roy could just go against all fundamentals; then there is Floyd, He takes fighters that are elite fighters against the field and makes them look mediocre through his adjustments.
IF, the power was in the belts we would get a chance to see other fights made. In these fights you would get more wild and random match-ups to give us a wider scope to see a Savant.



Now we have the definition of natural talent confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Of course, Roy Jones was more talented than Floyd physically. In terms of boxing talent, I don't agree. With that said, if they were at the same weight, in their prime, it would be a 50/50 fight. Roy's physical advantages might trump the skills of Mayweather.

This post has been edited by Aware: Mar 11 2014, 12:51 AM
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readydog72
post Mar 11 2014, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (Aware @ Mar 11 2014, 01:47 AM) *
Now we have the definition of natural talent confused (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Of course, Roy Jones was more talented than Floyd physically. In terms of boxing talent, I don't agree. With that said, if they were at the same weight, in their prime it would be a 50/50 fight. Roy's physical advantages might trump the skills of Mayweather.


I think what you're calling boxing talent im calling fundamentals. I kind of see natural talent as accuracy, quickness and speed. For instance Adrien Broner is naturally talented but his fundamentals are awful.
Just a difference in definitions but i see what you're saying.
In you're example i see the quickness 50/50, accuracy and speed to Floyd, Punching power to Roy. I have Floyd's grasp of pure boxing fundamentals far ahead of Roy's. We can only wonder.
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Aware
post Mar 11 2014, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE (readydog72 @ Mar 11 2014, 02:02 AM) *
I think what you're calling boxing talent im calling fundamentals. I kind of see natural talent as accuracy, quickness and speed. For instance Adrien Broner is naturally talented but his fundamentals are awful.
Just a difference in definitions but i see what you're saying.
In you're example i see the quickness 50/50, accuracy and speed to Floyd, Punching power to Roy. I have Floyd's grasp of pure boxing fundamentals far ahead of Roy's. We can only wonder.



No, boxing talent to me is much more than that. Imagine a magical computer that could input all the variables that a given boxer uses in the ring (including brain synapses and undefinable intangibles) into a program that analyzes them and spits out a value.

This post has been edited by Aware: Mar 11 2014, 01:31 AM
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readydog72
post Mar 11 2014, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Aware @ Mar 11 2014, 02:14 AM) *
No, boxing talent to me is much more than that. Imagine a magical computer that could input all the variables that a given boxer uses in the ring (including brain synapses and undefinable intangibles) into a program that analyzes them and spits out a value.

Whoa ok, youre going waaay into it. Yep i just see that as fundamentals or boxing IQ, which Floyd's is off the charts. Floyd can adjust better than any i have seen. He takes away a boxers strengths or his energy.
I agree with you on all that but i really just feel Savant is too strong of a word.
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BrutUalBK
post Mar 11 2014, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (readydog72 @ Mar 10 2014, 11:25 PM) *
History is just that history. Boxing was more slugging in Robinson's day. What Floyd has in front of him now doesn't measure up. I was joking earlier about Ali and Roy but if you look at it, Roy had the same issue but didn't approach it like Floyd has. I think Roy had more natural talent than anyone but was as near fundamentally sound as Floyd. Floyd work ethic in the gym is off the charts as well.
Roy had nobody to fight, got bored and started doing crazy stuff. All of the above mentioned had gifts that others didn't. Ali could actually make people walk right into his uppercut. Roy could just go against all fundamentals; then there is Floyd, He takes fighters that are elite fighters against the field and makes them look mediocre through his adjustments.
IF, the power was in the belts we would get a chance to see other fights made. In these fights you would get more wild and random match-ups to give us a wider scope to see a Savant.



I totally disagree with Jones being as fundamentally sound as Mayweather, if he had been then he'd still possess those fundamentals today and quite possibly would've never gotten KO'd. Hopkins possesses equal fundamentals as Floyd and his longevity in this sport proves it, plus he's never been knocked out, whereas we saw what happened with the absence of these same defensive fundamentals in Roy.

Roy was naturally gifted with reflexes which doesn't equal fundamentals; Jones often made many offensive as well as defensive mistakes that he got away with because of his speed and reflexes. I remember how willingly Roy went to the ropes and didn't properly protect himself once he was there, his caging was faulty, he often brought both of his feet together when moving laterally (a huge mistake) and he stood in front of his opponents too long (this cost him in the Johnson fight) not using angles to get in his shots and move out in a different direction from when he threw his shots.

Study Floyd and Bernard and see how they usually throw from odd angles and then change directions, they never bring their feet together when moving laterally, they never cage on the ropes leaving big holes or simply leaning back onto the ropes looking for an opportune shot and their defensive fundamentals are leagues ahead of Roy's too.

If Ali was as fundamentally sound as you make him out to be then there was no way he would've gotten knocked down by Frazier as he pulled straight back (a huge fundamental flaw) after throwing his punches, he let a man with 7 fights beat him, there's no way you are fundamentally sound being exposed like that. I love Ali and Jones but neither are boxing Savants, Floyd does things otherworldly.
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mgrover
post Mar 11 2014, 12:11 PM
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In as few words as possible: Yes

For people that disagree: What doesn't he know how to do very well.

Finally the definition of savant is wise man/expert in their respective field.

This post has been edited by mgrover: Mar 11 2014, 12:15 PM
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