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Full Version: Calderon Raises Interesting P4P Issue
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NickBarker
I've read many people debating about where 105 and 108 pound champion Ivan "Iron Boy" Calderon ought to be ranked in the pound-for-pound lists. One of the points of dissent among them was his Paulie Malignaggi-like lack of power. Some claimed that because he lacked this trait he ought not to be as high as he could be if he possessed more destructive punching force. Others, on the other hand, felt that it warranted raising him up even farther on the list because it meant he had to rely more on technical skill.

I believe this is a particular example of a fairly crucial issue in P4P rankings that often goes unspoken. For you, is the P4P list a ranking of pure, technical skill or merely a way of comparing fighters across disparate weight classes (incorporating their natural athleticism, e.g., power)? I'd like to hear what you all have to think, because I fall squarely into the latter opinion.
BigG
Calderon should be somewhere around the top 20 or top 15 because he is simply one of the best technical fighters in the world. His skill is incredible.
Southeastpaw
Mayweather is known pretty much for his technical ability. And before him was Jones, who was also known more for his technical ability moreso than his power. So personally, I think it would be a discredit to Calderon not to have him on a top 10 P4P list with what he has done and his level of skill. He already had the #10 spot on my personal list before his fight with Hugo. That was a few months ago. I need to conjure up a new one and post it.
Maxy
I feel that punching power is irrelevant when compiling a P4P list. Surely it's all about the said fighters ability to win fights?

I mean, Pernell Whitaker was never a puncher but he was, for me at least, one of the very top P4P fighters over the last 20 years.
BigG
Punching power doesnt matter...What matters is how good of a fighter you are. And Ivan happens to be one of the best in the world meaning on a P4P sense, dude would school most guys.
Maxy
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Aug 28 2007, 08:26 AM) [snapback]355339[/snapback]
Punching power doesnt matter...What matters is how good of a fighter you are. And Ivan happens to be one of the best in the world meaning on a P4P sense, dude would school most guys.


Exactly...punching power is irrelevant.
Big Slim Sweet
I wouldn't call punching power irrelevent. For a lot of fighters, it's one of their top traits. Certainly you shouldn't gain or slip in the rankings based on power alone (I guess in that sense it is irrelevent). But take a guy like Manny Pacquaio, his power makes him what he is, and he's pretty much a unanimous top 3 p4per right now. His technical skill alone wouldn't have him ranked nearly that high. So in his case, power is not at all irrelevent.
Maxy
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Aug 28 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]355348[/snapback]
Certainly you shouldn't gain or slip in the rankings based on power alone (I guess in that sense it is irrelevent).


Thats what I was saying.
Big Slim Sweet
But guys like Lacy, Julio and Darchinyan weren't on too many p4p lists before they lost anyway. Sure fans got excited over watching them fight, but that's always been the case. No matter how you feel about punchers, it can't be disputed that the single most visceral thrill in watching boxing is the sudden, one punch knockout.

I believe p4p should be based on accomplishments alone. If a guy successfully uses his power to win fights, that shouldn't penalize him, should it? Take Diego Corrales. After his KO's of Freitas and Castillo, he absolutely belonged on everyone's top 10p4p list. What attribute did he use to win those fights? Power. Without it, he would have lost both fights. So there's a case where a guy's punching power helped to improve his p4p standing. Even if more knowledgable fans recognized Chico was at risk to lose his next fight (or every remaining fight in his career as it turned out), at the time, he stood where he stood among the best in the sport based on what he had recently achieved.

I realize I'm veering the argument a bit off course here. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate. As the original poster stated, Ivan Calderon should not be penalized for his lack of punching power, just as guys like Pacquaio or Corrales shouldn't be (or have been) penalized for their heavy reliance on theirs (at least until it costs them a fight). But the reality is lack of punching power will always cost those fighters a certain amount of publicity and notoriety, and as a result will naturally hinder their p4p standing with a large segment of the boxing public.
Lil-lightsout
Calderon is easily in my top ten P4P list. Him and Mayweather are the best pure boxers in the game today. It is a shame he fights at such a low weight.
BrutalBodyShots
Punching power shouldn't matter with the creation of P4P lists. It's all about who the better fighter is. Would you take Calderon over Pavlik if they were mythically at the same weight? Obviously Pavlik hits gobs harder, but Calderon is much more technically gifted. Of course you have to first look at resumes, but if you feel two fighters are equal in terms of accomplishments, you need to match them against one another mythically (P4P defined in a way) and think about who would win.

Kijis Konar
Caldy should be in everyone's top 10 right now, even if it is in the bottom 5. Dude just beat one of the best, if not the best, 108-pounder in the world, a man who came into the fight at 130 while Caldy came into the ring weighing 114 lbs.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Fitz @ Aug 28 2007, 05:04 PM) [snapback]355431[/snapback]
Lacy was pretty much one win away. It was pretty much the winner of Lacy/Calazghe who would reach p4p status. Even fighters like Tito were picked over Hopkins and Wright because of punching power.
Also I see your argument about Corrales, and we can look at it in different ways, but this is the reason why I always thought Diego was overrated. I just like a guy to win convincingly than to be losing fights and turn it around with one shot. I'm not saying Diego sucked, but to me he was one of the most overrated fighters in recent times. He was good, but not as good as he was ever made out to be.
I agree with what your saying though, that punching power will cost them spotlight. I just think that nobody should be punished for having punching power and fighters shouldn't be rewarded on that trait alone either. To me it should be a bonus in the package only.

Diego may have been overrated in the sense that you knew his fighting style would make for a short career and likely lead to a loss sooner rather than later, which it did, but what he accomplished by knocking out two A level guys in Freitas and Castillo and his resulting spot on most everyone's p4p top 10 at that time you really can't say was overrated, IMO, because bottom line, he did what he did.

With Lacy, yes he was overrated by people who thought he would steamroll Calzaghe (actually in that case I think it was that plus a case of Calzaghe being severely underrated). But nonetheless, had Lacy steamrolled him, he would have absolutely deserved p4p consideration. Had his power been enough to get him past an undefeated, 10-year or however long champion, then great for him.
BrutalBodyShots
Let's also not forget that in addition to his two KOs over Castillo and Freitas, Corrales also beat Casamayor in their second fight (using a different style as well) which made that an awesome string of 3 wins.

I can't think of any other top fighter (P4P) that beat 3 guys of that caliber in a row... except maybe Pacquiao and we know where he stands in most lists.

BigG
I'd like to see Calderon fight Ulises Solis. Solis is a good puncher but I think Calderon would shut him out.
kidbazooka1
Calderon IMO is on the cusp of making the top 10 p4p but he's not quite there yet if he can beat somone like Solis he should definitly be ranked but I think Solis would be too big for him. Solis is a much better boxer than Casarez and a better puncher aswell.

Solis stops Calderon late in the fight.
Southeastpaw
IMO, Calderon deserves a higher spot on a P4P list than Hatton does. Let's face it. Hatton got a gift when he fought @ 147. Calderon has much more pure skill than Hatton and just moved up in weight to face a solid title holder there. Hugo was also much bigger than Calderon. So whoever has Hatton on their P4P list, that is a good enough testament for me that Calderon definitely deserves to be on it as well, ahead of Hatton.

Calderon had been the man and undefeated @ minimum for so long, then finally moves up and did his thing. Let's face it, if another fighter at a higher, recognizable weight had reigned in a division as long as Calderon has at minimum and then moved up and won against a legit champion, especially by the margins which Hugo outweighed Ivan, that fighter would undoubtedly be on just about all P4P lists. So why not Ivan?
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