1. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (Universally recognized as the best P4P...most talented fighter in the world)
2. Bernard Hopkins (Destoryed Tarver and beat Winky up after controversial "losses" to Taylor)
3. Manny Pacquiao (Destroyed Morales and Barrera in dominating fashion)
4. Winky Wright (Lost to Hopkins but don't forget that he dominated Mosley & Tito and was probably robbed against Taylor)
5. Juan Manuel Marquez (One of the best technical boxers in the world...whooped up Barrera in his last fight)
6. Shane Mosley (He's been on a good streak...dominated Collazo who I thought beat Hatton by 3 points)
7. Ricky Hatton (Beat Tszyu and Castillo)
8. Miguel Cotto (An absolute beast)
9. Israel Vazquez (Wins over Marquez and Jhonny Gonzalez...Izzy is the man)
10. Marco Antonio Barrera (Still such a good fighter...HOFer...was very competitive in loss to Marquez).
11. Joe Calzaghe (Best SMW...has his hands full w/ Kessler).
12. Ivan Calderon (Just moved up and beat the best Junior Flyweight. One of the best technical fighters of the era...the Mayweather of his weight class....too bad he doens't get enough big fights. Helluva fighter).
13. Fernando Montiel (3x world champion....helluva boxer. One of the best little guys without a doubt)
14. Juan Diaz (Probably the best lightweight in the world).
15. Rafael Marquez (This guy is still a killer...dont count him out againt Vazquez in the 3rd fight)

Next five: Gerry Penalosa, Kelly Pavlik, Mikkel Kessler, Cristian Mijares, Zab Judah (yeah I said it)

Hatton - Mayweather
Calzaghe - Kessler
Cotto - Mosley
Paquiao - Barrera

4 fights with top 15-20 p4p fighters (according to your list) in the next 2 1/2 months.

This is going to be a killer last quarter to the year. As long as none of these fights get postponed (knock on wood) as so many hve been in recent months.

Exactly right assasin...The P4P lists are going to look VERY different come January...should be interesting. In any event, here's my top 10 as of today.


1.Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
2.Israel Vasquez
3.Manny Pacquiao
4.Juan Manuel Marquez
5.Rafael Marquez
6.Joe Calzaghe
7.Miguel Cotto
8.Marco Antonio Barerra
9.Bernard Hopkins
10.Ricky Hatton
11.Ivan Calderon
12.Shane Mosely
13.Oscar De La Hoya
14.Mikkel Kessler
15.Winky Wright
16.Joan Guzman
17.Juan Diaz
18.Joel Casamayor
19.Chad Dawson
20.Vladamir Klitchko(sp?)


Thats right, Taylor is complely off my list now. Since he is planning to move up to 168 where he will always be matched with men his own size and continues to show that he can be punched about the face and head AT WILL, I'm predicting he will have no success as a super middle.

1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Calzaghe
4. Dawson
5. Kessler

Actually Dawson is my number 3 but hes still not that proven. Other than that top 5 I dont know how to continue a ranking. I can only say that I believe Winky and especially Hatton a overrated. And Hopkins is absolutely not a top 3 guy, come on ...

Chi-town said:

1.Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
2.Israel Vasquez
3.Manny Pacquiao
4.Juan Manuel Marquez
5.Israel Vasquez

You got Israel Vasquez in there twice other than that looks like a pretty fair and accurate p4p list.

Hey George,

how is it possible that Hopkins and Wright (both of whom had close fights with JT) are in the top 5 and Pavlik (who ko'd Taylor) isn't even in your top 15?

Also, where is Paul Williams' name? I'd personally pick him over any ww right now, including Floyd.

I'm sure the argument would be that Hopkins' and Wright's body of work is much greater than that of Pavlik.

Thanks bro,....I edited it...Joel Casamayor slides in at #18 with the vacant spot.

Also, I think salvador makes a good point...what about Paul Williams? I think the jury is still out on him at the moment so I still have a hard time putting him on my list. However, the definition of P4P that I follow is; if all things were equal, if there were no weight classes, then who beats who? Even though Floyd is #1 p4p I'm not 100% sure that Floyd could beat Paul Williams at 147 considering he gives up 5 1/2 inches in height and almost 20 inches in reach. Too bad Floyd would NEVER EVER take that fight so we'll never know.

You couldn't be more right about Floyd never fighting Williams, which, more than anything else (even more than his completely risk averse style) really should make the boxing world question his #1p4p status.

I also like the addition of Casamayor. And I'd even consider throwing in Clottey.

In fact, I think that another good list would be the list of underrated guys who could beat top p4p guys if given a chance: Williams and Clottey would top that list for me.

I usually stay away from P4P lists, but here is my top 10.


Mayweather
Pacquiao
JM Marquez
Vasquez
Cotto
Calderon(Has been neglected on P4P lists too long)
Barrera
Juan Diaz
Calzaghe(I hate this guy)
Chris John

Vasquez, Cotto, Barrera, Marquez, Diaz, and Chris John? ALL BEFORE PAUL WILLIAMS????????????? Before PAvlik? Before Clottey? Who the hell are you? You're obviously an imposter!

Williams? OVERRATED

You're suggesting that Vazquez, Cotto, Barrera, Marquez and Diaz should be ranked after Paul Williams? I hope you're joking. Especially about Cotto, Vazquez and Marquez.

Paul is a great looking fighter...but he's only been tested once.
He needs another couple of big names. Margarito's biggest claim to fame, honestly, was that Floyd opted to fight Baldomir instead of him.
He needs to fight a fast guy or 2 (Zab/Shane), and Maybe a Cotto or someone...but he'll be a nightmare for anyone.
While I think that he can tear up that list, I think he needs to prove himself before he's listed on it.

I don't get why Shane is so high on everyone's list. The ONLY thing that he has accomplished in his career is 2 wins (one is very disputable, especially since he should have lost, and was on roids) over DLH.
Otherwise, he has lost to Forrest, Wright, and has a no contest with Marquez...that he was arguably on his way to losing. His speed makes him a threat to anyone, but one good stiff jab throws him entirely off his gameplan. I wouldn't have him in my top 15, honestly. Maybe if he gets past Cotto...

Exactly. I have never rated Margarito and his reputation is purely based on someone not fighting him. I am not going to say that Williams sucks, because I think he is a decent fighter, though I think his strengths are probably more due to how he is physically built than his boxing skill, but he is still a solid fighter that is a little rough around the edges but will improve. I would like to see him beat someone better than Margarito before I even consider rating him over someone like Cotto, Vasquez or Marquez. A win over Margarito is ok, but not great.

Sal is joking. I hope he is anyhow. I believe he just knows how much I really like and believe in these fighters9except for Clottey). And I do. They will almost undoubtedly be on a P4P list soon. But I believe that the honor of being on a P4P list comes from consistent wins over time at a top level of boxing. Not like when Tarver beat Jones and people slung him up to #3. That was absurd. Williams and Pavlik are well on their way though. More than Clottey. I have no idea where that name came from. Even though Clottey is a fine fighter, I have never shown interest in him like I have the other two.

Oh yeah, he must have been joking. I forgot that he was talking to you, lol. I agree about having some consistent wins over time and that is exactly why I never had Tarver too high. Williams and Pavlik both need a few more wins IMO.

Well about Tarver being ranked in the top 10 after the Jones win, people need to understand that Jones was FAR AND AWAY the best P4P in the world right before the first Tarver fight.

Then Tarver goes on to give Jones the worst beating of his career and lose a close MD. And then KO's him in 2 in the rematch. Based on those back to back fights, you'd probably had to rate Tarver somewhere in the top 10 or top 12.

Yeah, somewhere around 8 and lower I can accept, what I couldn't accept was seeing him in the top 5.

I have to disagree with you on Shane not accomplishing anything....he was the best lightweight of the last 30 years, jumped STRAIGHT up to 147 and beat Oscar who was a P4P elite at the time. I don't give much credence to his losses to Forrest because I believe that it was just a stylistic problem. In other words I don't think he lost to VF because he was a lesser fighter, Forrest just had his style down cold since they were teenagers, but Mosley still was and is overall a better fighter. Then all the talk of him possibly being washed up started after the loss to Wright, but you have to remember he lost to Wright before we really, really knew how good Winky was...if you recall, that fight took place before Winky even had P4P status, therefore the loss was judged more harshly. If he was still trying to compete at 154 with guys as big as Winky then I could see your point, but he's a welterweight now, and fighting guys his own size I don't see anyone who can dominate him.

I understand that to an extent, but many, including Leon put Tarver @ #3. Crazy! I also took into account Jones' decline afetr the Ruiz bout. I could tell by the 5th round of the first Tarver fight that Roy was not the same fighter or he just did not train for that fight that hard. He was very tired and breathing hard by the 5th. That was NOT the Jones I knew. Tarver never really showed me anything special either, stylisticwise.

I hate to disappoint you, but I ain't joking. I'd take Williams' win over Margarito every day of the week over Cotto's win over Judah.

I don't think that going to a fight makes you appreciate a fighter any more than watching him on tv (actually tv is probably better), but I was at Margarito-Williams and I'm telling you he TOWERED over Margarito. His arms are just so long and he's so tall and he never stops throwing punches and, most importantly, he can take a great shot. I seriously don't think there's anyone at ww who can beat him, particularly not Cotto who's only 5'7". Cotto's way too short for Williams and I don't think there's a chance in hell Arum would ever be stupid enough to throw him in with Williams. So given that I think Williams would beat Cotto, I would put him ahead of him on a p4p list. How is that contraversial?

And to me, p4p means who is the best fighter right now, not yesterday. I love Barrera and I'm giving him much more of a chance against Pacquiao than I probably should be simply because of his glorious past, but I'm not even sure that Barrera is in the top 3 fighters at 130 anymore. The Barrera who beat Naz would be top 3 of any p4p list, but that was a long time ago. Right now, Williams is in his absolute prime and, on a p4p basis, he's way more dangerous/feared than Barrera.

Vasquez and Marquez are both great, but there's nothing about either of them that would make Floyd Mayweather duck them if Floyd was fighting at 122. Floyd ain't getting anywhere near WIlliams for a reason.

And I'd take Williams' win over Margarito over Diaz's win over Freitas all day as well.

I don't think WIlliams has the skills of the typical p4p guy, but his physical attributes more than make up for any shortcomings he has in technique. And to me, p4p is all about what someone brings to the ring, not about how pretty they look doing it.

As far as Clottey is concerned, I think that he's the most underrated guy in the sport and I predict he'll have a hell of a hard time finding anyone who will fight him as well.

And Pavlik's ko of JT speaks for itself.

Sal, you and I see eye to eye on where Williams is and what he is capable of. I understand exactly what you are talking about. I believe that by far Williams is the best ww and that Pavlik is the best mw. But I feel that a P4P spot has to be earned. I used Tarver as an example. Going by your point of view, Tarver probably should have been #1 P4P after his win over Jones, cause that was a HUGE feat. Especially at what Jones had just accomplished coupled with how long he had reigned the P4P king. But that just isn't fair. The guys I put before Williams and Pavlik are there because they earned it. I'm almost positive that Pav and Williams are going to get far up that list and I agree with you that they are better NOW. Now don't get me wrong, the wins have to be clean, clear wins which is why I had a hard time with Taylor up there, but his undecisive wins were against other top P4Pers, so I guess it was alright. I do not even rank Hatton because he is dirty and has a loss as far as I'm concerned.

But Sal, I agree with you that Williams and Pavlik are the truth in their respective weight classes.

As far as Clottey is concerned. He is the goods, but he did lose to Margarito, so I cannot rank over Margarito who I don't even have in there.

Barrera still showed that he had the goods in his fight with Marquez. I rate Juan very high and Barrera gave a very good account of himself in that fight even in defeat. Barrera deserves a spot as far as I'm concerned.

Sal, you know how big I have been on Williams, anyone who is familiar with me knows that I have been his biggest supporter for the past few years. AAnd you know I am a huge Pavlik supporter as well. But I have to be fair. I guess it all boils down to the way we think that a P4P list should be structured. You saw what happened with Tarver. I never had that fool on a P4P list. He never belonged on one. I give him some credit for his win over Jones, but I personally think he caught Jones while he was ripe for the pickins.

Just my take bro.

Well SE,
I guess it's just about defining the p4p criteria. To me, it's all about who are the most dangerous guys now, whereas I suppose there is a fair argument for earning it over time. You were right about Williams from the beginning, but based on your criteria he may never be on the p4p list because the smaller guys in the division like Floyd, Cotto and Judah will never get in the ring with him. So it's hard for me to put Cotto above Williams when being p4p should mean that one is willing to take on all comers. And though it's too early to say that Floyd and Cotto have ducked Williams, I also don't hear them calling him out.

For my money, beating Margarito the way Williams did should have catapulted him to the top of the division in a way that the top guys were BEGGING to fight him and prove themselves. Instead, Cotto (who I love) is fighting a 36 year old who's best days are long gone, and Floyd is fighting a 140 pounder whose only trip up to 147 was shaky at best.

And I'd still say the same thing about Margarito. I think you'll find that nobody's going to jump in the ring with him any time soon.

I'd actually love to see DLH fight either Williams or Margarito at 147. Both would be FOTY candidates.

Interesting that you say that...I heard that had Margarito beaten Williams and Cotto, Oscar would have considered him for the first of "supposed" 3 fights in 2008.

I can't be doing with P4P rankings...BUT I have to call up everyone who has Calzaghe ahead of Hatton. I know there are a lot of Hatton haters on here but isn't some of that hate clouding some of your judgements?

Calzaghe-Kessler could go either way....it's a tight match-up between two obvious world class boxers. However, who has Calzaghe EVER beaten? EVER? So why is he ahead of Hatton?

Hatton, whether you hate his style or not, has the better resume.

I can live with him being ahead of Barrera at this stage and Juan Diaz as well, as they both have one solid win and you could make an argument for either. But I think it's a little silly to rank a guy over 2 very skilled and tough 122 fighters just because you think, that if they were at 147 you think Mayweather would fight them. Once again, and please nobody assume I am suggesting that Williams is as skillful as Valuev, but Mayweather may be reluctant to fight against Williams because of his physical advantages, just like Valuev would have these against everyone at heavyweight. I think it has more to do with how tall and big his reach is than having anything to do with his boxing skill. Mayweather has dealt with better natural boxers. Williams is a decent boxer and much better than Valuev, I just think it's more his physical advantages that Mayweather probably doesn't want a part of and I don't like the idea rating him over 2 proven warriors based on that. That's just me.

As much as I cannot stand Joe, he has defended his title consistently and has been a champ for quite a while. His style, while "slappy" is much more of the sport of boxing than MMA. He deserves the spot more than Hatton for sure.

I was questioning his resume, not his style.

Do you honestly believe he has a better resume than Hatton?

I'm always reluctant to get into p4p discussions because they're a little silly, but my interpretation of it is that p4p is all about who is the most dominant guy on a p4p basis, not who is the most skilled. Skill alone isn't very useful without speed or without power or without heart or without xyz......... Some guys are born with speed, and some are unusually coordinated, some learn the sport early and their muscles are trained properly before puberty ect., but to me all those things are just parts of the overall package. Williams' advantages are that he's freakishly tall and long and he has a freakish amount of endurance and an ability to throw 100+ punches a round. Those advantages, combined with his ability to take incredibly hard body shots (if he can take Margarito's best body shots, he can take ANYONE's) as well as his ability to take shots to the chin, make Williams the most formidable guy at 147 in spite of the fact that he doesn't have the skill, speed or coordination of a Floyd or the power of a Cotto or a Margarito.

The bottom line for me is that Williams is just too tall for Cotto or Floyd or any other 147 pounder, and unless someone has the punch to ko Williams, it's damn hard for me to see him losing on points to anyone at 147. So, to me, he's the most formidable guy in the best division in the sport. Again, it all comes down to what the p4p list really means.

I'm looking at how long each has defended a title, who they have on their resumes, where those fighters were when they were beaten, and how they got beat. I have said it before, as far as I'm concerned, Hatton lost his fight with Collazo. Hatton fouled his way to a win against an inactive Tzsyu. Tzsyu was on his way out at that point in time. And it was obvious Castillo was past it. While Calslappy does not have a caliber fighter as Tszyu on his list, he has some decent fighters, but he has been an undefeated champ for a very long time. Hopkins was on many P4P lists before he beat any real names, in which Tito was that name. Before that the biggest name on his resume was Echols. So, I do not even have Hatton on my top 10, but I have Cal because of his performances and defenses. Just a difference in how we see the fighters Maxy. I believe that Hatton's style is horrendous and a disgrace to the sport. There is no changing the way I feel. He mauled Kostya to the win.

OK..fair enough...

Like I said, I was just wondering why people have Calzaghe ahead of Hatton. Cheers for the answer.

QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Oct 2 2007, 06:29 PM)
I'm looking at how long each has defended a title, who they have on their resumes, where those fighters were when they were beaten, and how they got beat. I have said it before, as far as I'm concerned, Hatton lost his fight with Collazo. Hatton fouled his way to a win against an inactive Tzsyu. Tzsyu was on his way out at that point in time. And it was obvious Castillo was past it. While Calslappy does not have a caliber fighter as Tszyu on his list, he has some decent fighters, but he has been an undefeated champ for a very long time. Hopkins was on many P4P lists before he beat any real names, in which Tito was that name. Before that the biggest name on his resume was Echols. So, I do not even have Hatton on my top 10, but I have Cal because of his performances and defenses. Just a difference in how we see the fighters Maxy. I believe that Hatton's style is horrendous and a disgrace to the sport. There is no changing the way I feel. He mauled Kostya to the win.

Exactly....longevity counts just as much as quality. Not only that, I have him ahead of Hatton because P4P I just think he's the better fighter, meaning mythically speaking, if both guys were the same size and could fight each other, I would heavily favor Calzaghe...he's just better in my opinion.