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AussieLad
Man, i didnt see this coming. I suppose he doesnt have anything left to prove, but i was really hoping a fedor fight could be made.

Who do you think will fight for the vacant title? Arlovski, Sylvia, Congo?
BrutalBodyShots
Very surprising news, but if he can't get the Fedor fight he's right there really isn't anything else for him.

DEP Nihilist
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Oct 11 2007, 10:02 PM) [snapback]360891[/snapback]
Man, i didnt see this coming. I suppose he doesnt have anything left to prove, but i was really hoping a fedor fight could be made.

Who do you think will fight for the vacant title? Arlovski, Sylvia, Congo?


Hopefully the winner of Vera-Sylvia, which I hope is Vera, and uhhh I guess Arlovski, I think he's working on a new contract or somethin
jlupi
I wasnt sure if I should post this in boxing but I copied this post, from sherdog, about coutore leaving UFC and possibly moving to a rival to fight fedor. I think its take is interesting in the context of boxing vs. mma


"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: THe UFC as a league, which is what it is, is doomed in its current form. You cannot contract 150 fighters, which it does, and attempt to keep everyone happy when no-name boxers are out-earning relatively well known fighters. UFC must become a promoter, a BELT, so to speak. Randy just expedited this reality faster than they wanted it to happen. If he can fight Fedor somewhere else, for cash, then the biggest match in MMA history will have taken place outside of the UFC, and the media will rush to cover it. That's a UFC nightmare. They tried to hold and pull the strings for too long, and maybe, just maybe, this legend pulled the wool out."
Southeastpaw
Nicer article jlupi. I like the way Randy thinks. I give him all props for doing everything he can to take on the best.
Hodge
I agree. UFC does put on some exciting cards. I think boxing is bad at making everything a pay-per-view, but come on. Not every card has to be a PPV. Rich Franklin vs. Silva is not that big of a deal. They're going to have to go the NFL route and the fighters have to get a union. I wonder if the guys get any of the gates or things like big name boxers do.

I do think losing Couture is a blow, but their publicist will be able to make a next big thing. Forrest Griffin has what it takes to be a champ and attraction, win or lose as an Arturo Gatti or Diego Corrales. I just wonder who it is going to be. I don't think it will be Rampage, because he's black. (No racism.) but it seems they gear their stuff to the frat boy crowd. I would be easier to sell a Griffin, Nate Diaz, Matt Serra, Tim Sylvia or the Orlofsky dude.

Just my thoughts.
Tha Docta
i think eventually the ufc will only be a promotional company for fighters. its impossible to keep all of the best fighters under one umbrella and make them all happy.

plus guys like mark cuban are already tossing money around to lure guys away. i think ufc as we know it now will eventually cease to exist other than owning the promotional rights to certain fighters.
thehype
I don't think it really matters...the fans will go wherever the better fights are, and so far, that's still the UFC....with or without Couture.

EliteXC has been around for a little while now...they've had some decent names (Nick Diaz, Frank Shamrock, Robbie Lawler, Cung Le, Brock Lesnar, Kimbo Slice), but have yet to really put on an exciting card.

While Couture will certainly be missed by the fans, the heavyweight division isn't really what carried the UFC. It's the light heavyweight division that's the most popular with names like Quinton Jackson, Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Shogun Rua, Forrest Griffin, Keith Jardine, Houston Alexander, Matt Hamill, Thiago Silva, Lyoto Machido....not to mention the welterweight division with names like Matt Serra, Matt Hughes, Georges St-Pierre, Jon Fitch, Diego Sanchez, Karo Parisyan, Josh Koscheck. There's just a lot of other big names out there and exciting fights that can be made so I doubt that the departure of a beloved 44-year old fighter is going to put a serious dent into the organization. Besides, from what I understand, Couture is still under contract to the UFC and won't be able to fight for any other organizations anyway. And let's not forget...this isn't the first time that Couture has retired...the UFC didn't struggle when he retired before and I highly doubt it will struggle now.

Now...don't get me wrong...the heavyweight division might suck a little, but what else is new? The heavyweight division sucked before when Randy was fighting at light heavy. In fact, the heavyweight division didn't really get exciting for people until Randy decided to announce his comeback and fight Sylvia. Randy wins...everyone gets excited...then all the PRIDE guys started coming over (Cro Cop, Nogueira, Kongo) and everyone got even more excited about all the potential matchups. Randy defends just one time against Cro Cop conqueror Gonzaga, quits, and now all of a sudden the UFC is doomed? I just don't buy it....not when there's a TON of other big fights that can be made.

Nah...I really think the UFC won't skip a beat without Couture. Sure, us fans will miss him...but only until they announce the next big fight that everyone has been longing to see. Here's just a small list of fights that, in my opinion, will help people forget all about Couture's departure from the UFC:

Chuck Liddell vs. Wanderlei Silva
Quinton Jackson vs. Wanderlei Silva 3
Dan Henderson vs. Wanderlei Silva 2
Georges St-Pierre vs. Matt Huges 3
BJ Penn vs. Matt Hughes 3
BJ Penn vs. Georges St-Pierre
Cheick Kongo vs. Gabriel Gonzaga
Antonio Nogueira vs. Mirko Cro Cop

And that's just a very, very small list of fights that could probably headline a PPV event. Yeah...I think the UFC will be just fine without Captain America.

Just my opinion though.
thehype
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Oct 12 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]360954[/snapback]
i think eventually the ufc will only be a promotional company for fighters. its impossible to keep all of the best fighters under one umbrella and make them all happy.

plus guys like mark cuban are already tossing money around to lure guys away. i think ufc as we know it now will eventually cease to exist other than owning the promotional rights to certain fighters.


Totally disagree. Cuban hasn't even gotten his feet wet yet...and despite the fact that he's "tossing money around", he really hasn't been able to entice any big names over. And from my understanding, organizations like EliteXC and IFL are millions of dollars in the hole right now. Besides, a lot of the named fighters that they do have are already at the tale end of their careers (i.e. Robbie Lawler, Phil Baroni, Frank Shamrock). Truth be told, those organizations are where fighters who can't hack it in the UFC end up going...and the funny thing is that a lot of those fighters always talk about wanting to make it back into the UFC.

As long as the UFC still has it's own personal farming system (The Ultimate Fighter Reality Show), it'll be very easy to create household names and replace fighters at the snap of a finger (case in point, Matt Serra).
jlupi
Hype, I dont think the departure of randy will hurt the UFC. however I think the point of having a large amount of fighters under contract with personalities and The disparity in $$$ made by their fighters and boxers will fdorce a change. A lot of these POP up promotional companioes will continue to throw money at there stars. As mentioned earlyer at the very least fighters will eventually unionize.
Hodge
QUOTE(thehype @ Oct 12 2007, 02:56 PM) [snapback]360956[/snapback]
Totally disagree. Cuban hasn't even gotten his feet wet yet...and despite the fact that he's "tossing money around", he really hasn't been able to entice any big names over. And from my understanding, organizations like EliteXC and IFL are millions of dollars in the hole right now. Besides, a lot of the named fighters that they do have are already at the tale end of their careers (i.e. Robbie Lawler, Phil Baroni, Frank Shamrock). Truth be told, those organizations are where fighters who can't hack it in the UFC end up going...and the funny thing is that a lot of those fighters always talk about wanting to make it back into the UFC.

As long as the UFC still has it's own personal farming system (The Ultimate Fighter Reality Show), it'll be very easy to create household names and replace fighters at the snap of a finger (case in point, Matt Serra).


That's true. They are also buying other leagues. If i'm not mistaken, they own the WEC. They are going to have to pony up the money though. You (owner of UFC) can't rack in billions of dollars revenue and the highest paid purse is something like 5 mil. There is no way the faces of UFC should be unhappy with money. Tito Ortiz has had his gripes, Chuck Liddell made like $1.25 for the Rampage fight. How can this happen when guys likes Cotto and Mosely are getting this and my not getting as many viewers like UFC PPV cards. Something fishy about this.
thehype
QUOTE(jlupi @ Oct 12 2007, 03:17 PM) [snapback]360959[/snapback]
Hype, I dont think the departure of randy will hurt the UFC. however I think the point of having a large amount of fighters under contract with personalities and The disparity in $$$ made by their fighters and boxers will fdorce a change. A lot of these POP up promotional companioes will continue to throw money at there stars. As mentioned earlyer at the very least fighters will eventually unionize.


But you have to bank on all of those fighters uniting for the same cause...and I just don't see that happening when there's always someone else waiting in the wings to grab that spotlight. Tito Ortiz was the first fighter to complain about his pay...waaaaaay before Couture made his big comeback to the light heavyweight division. That's part of the reason why he didn't want to fight Chuck....he felt that he and Chuck deserved more money for that fight than what was being offered. Had Chuck agreed with him and they both stuck to their guns, then they both probably would have been paid a lot more money.....but Chuck didn't want to stick to his guns because he was longing for the attention that Tito was getting so he was willing to make the fight happen no matter what. So because Chuck was willing to fight Tito for peanuts just so he could become champion and get the recognition, Tito looked like a coward and really didn't have any choice but to fight Chuck for whatever money he was eventually able to get.

I really don't think that you'll see a big push for a union because there are simply soooo many other guys waiting in the wings for an opportunity. To become one of the top fighters in MMA, you don't have to have years and years and years of training. With the right training, it's very easy to take a fighter with limited skills and give him enough tools to be able to compete with the best. In other words, it'll always be easy to find the next big thing because the supply of fighters out there wanting to make a quick 5, 10, 20 or 50K is almost unlimited. It's not like in boxing where you literally have to train at a young age in order to become one of the elite. In MMA, you could start training at the age of 20 and in three or four years, could potentially become a champion.

The idea of fighters getting together and making some kind of stand assumes that there aren't going to be any "scabs" waiting in line behind them to take their place. There's just waaaaaaay too many guys out there that are hungry for the peanuts that Dana and the UFC are giving them.

As for the other promotional companies throwing money at these guys, I really don't think that's an issue because all of the recognized top fighters are already with the UFC and those are the guys that most fighters want to face. Case in point, Jake Shields is with EliteXC, but he's already talking about the lack of competition and his desire to fight the top names in the UFC. Sokoudjou is one of the most exciting light heavyweights in the world, and yet, he has yet to sign with anyone (largely because he too prefers to fight the big names in the UFC).
Tha Docta
QUOTE(Hodge @ Oct 12 2007, 03:32 PM) [snapback]360960[/snapback]
That's true. They are also buying other leagues. If i'm not mistaken, they own the WEC. They are going to have to pony up the money though. You (owner of UFC) can't rack in billions of dollars revenue and the highest paid purse is something like 5 mil. There is no way the faces of UFC should be unhappy with money. Tito Ortiz has had his gripes, Chuck Liddell made like $1.25 for the Rampage fight. How can this happen when guys likes Cotto and Mosely are getting this and my not getting as many viewers like UFC PPV cards. Something fishy about this.



thats really the point i was trying to make, but i didnt go into too much detail. right now, the only people that are getting rich in the ufc are dana white and company. when you look at the ratings and ppv buys, and compare that with what the fighters are making, it just doesnt look right.

im not saying that coutures move will cripple the ufc, but i think its a sign of things to come. eventually, if enough top fighters are lured away from the ufc by people willing to pay these fighters properly, then it will force the ufc to look a little closer at their business model. when people realize that the remaining ufc title holders actually arent the best fighters in the world, the public will demand that the top guys get together and the ufc will be forced to deal with these other companies.

im willing to bet that alot of the big name ufc fighters are watching this couture situation very closely. if couture is able to land a fight with fedor and rakes in millions more than what these guys usually get, then things will get interesting.

i would not sleep on mark cubans business sense. i think he realizes that if he comes at these fighters straight and pays them what they should be paid for these big fights, then guys will gradually opt out of their ufc contracts when they expire and cash in with big fights.
thehype
Couture won't be fighting Fedor any time soon since technically he's still under contract with the UFC even though he "resigned" (I'm sure they had some type of non-compete clause written into the contract that Couture, himself, negotiated and was happy with).

And none of the other organizations (namely EliteXC) have been able to secure any of the best fighters unless that was their only option left (i.e. Nick Diaz). Josh Barnett and Soukoudjou (who holds two recent devastating 1st round KOs over Arona and Nogueira) are STILL free agents despite having offers on the table from EliteXC. Cro Cop, Silva, Henderson and just about every other PRIDE fighter you can name were all free agents, and yet, EliteXC has snatched up too many of them. The fact of the matter is that ALL of the big names are still with the UFC and ALL of the no-names are longing to get into the UFC and unless there's some kind of mass exodus by the likes of Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Quinton Jackson, Wanderlei Silva, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Georges St-Pierre, etc. It's going to take a lot more people than just Randy Couture to bounce from the UFC in order for any change to be implemented and right now, there's just not enough money being offered to those guys from these rival promotional companies.
thehype
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Oct 12 2007, 04:12 PM) [snapback]360966[/snapback]
i would not sleep on mark cubans business sense. i think he realizes that if he comes at these fighters straight and pays them what they should be paid for these big fights, then guys will gradually opt out of their ufc contracts when they expire and cash in with big fights.


If he hasn't snatched up Sokoudjou by now, you can go ahead and sleep on his business sense.

laugh.gif
Tha Docta
im not saying this is going to happen overnight. but eventually the big name fighters are going to realize that they arent being paid properly. if mma continues to grow and as these guys become bigger stars, they will realize that they dont need the ufc.

im not sure if there is an mma fighter thats a big enough celebrity right now to force a change like that. but i think a somewhat similar example would be the pga. tiger woods could start his own tour if he wanted too and run the pga into the ground. thats how big of a star that guy is. and the rest of the golfers would follow since the purses would be much higher on tigers new tour.

it may take years, but as these mma guys become more popular amongst the sports world, some changes will be made.
Maxy
Yeah yeah yeah....

Ain't there a section for this stuff...

Move it. It ain't boxing.
AussieLad
QUOTE(thehype @ Oct 12 2007, 08:03 PM) [snapback]360964[/snapback]
I really don't think that you'll see a big push for a union because there are simply soooo many other guys waiting in the wings for an opportunity. To become one of the top fighters in MMA, you don't have to have years and years and years of training. With the right training, it's very easy to take a fighter with limited skills and give him enough tools to be able to compete with the best. It's not like in boxing where you literally have to train at a young age in order to become one of the elite. In MMA, you could start training at the age of 20 and in three or four years, could potentially become a champion.


This is a load of bollocks.

What you have is people training in certain disciplines for years, since they were kids or teenagers, and then adding other aspects to their game in order to enter MMA (EG boxer/kickboxer adds grappling, wrestler/jiu-jitsu adds striking). The complete MMA skillset may be new, but these are people who have been training in one form of combat discipline for years prior to making the transition

Saying that you can go from having no fighting training to elite MMA fighter in 3 years!!!!!!!!! I'm sure there would be some freaky athletic people out there who could do it, but they would be rare rather than the norm, and they would also be able to do the same with boxing. They are the exception, not the norm. And besides, just like alot of the undercards in boxing, alot of the MMA undercards arent elite fighters. They are guys striving to become elite

Andrei Arlovski - multiple Sambo titles
Thiago Alves- training in Muay Thai since 15
Micheal Bisping has done martial arts since he was 8
Couture: Four time World Team member, Placed 9th in the 1997 World Championship in Poland, Pan American Games champion, Four time National Champion in Greco-Roman, three time All-American in college, two time runner-up at NCAA National Championships. Alternate for the Olympic team 4 times.
Cro-cops been fighting since 1994
Gonzaga : Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt / Titles: 2006 Mundials Champion, Heavyweight BJJ Black Belt GP 2004 Champion/ ADCC Trials Brazil Champion and ADCC 2005 second place, four-time BJJ national Champion / five-time Sao Paulo State Champion
Matt Hamill: three time NCAA national wrestling champion and two time world champion for freestyle wrestling

The list goes on....






Bill The Butcher
I think Couture should play the new, "Terminator". Actually, fire Robert Downey Jr. Sign him up for "Ironman"

That's too bad Couture quit. Would have been nice to see him and Rampage fight. But other than that, I guess it was his time to ride off into the sunset anyways. He retired as the heavyweight champ and one of the most popular fighters in UFC history. Congrats to him. I think he definitely deserved more than $250,000 a fight. Is the money not there?
hardhead
QUOTE
"This business is like a beauty salon," he said. "These guys are all the toughest guys in the world, but they're like (expletives) in a beauty salon. They pass along rumors and gossip, which has no basis in reality and they believe all the (rumors) they hear. The Internet is very powerful and one of the best promotional tools we have, but it's a crazy place.
QUOTE
"They hear these rumors and they believe them and then they get insulted like (expletives) after we try to talk reality with them. They'll say, 'Well, this guy is getting this much,' but when I ask where they heard it, it's never a contract, it's always, 'I read it on the Internet.' It's crazy."

Never thought the, crook White would stoop to the level of insulting his own fighters and much of the UFC fanbase...hmmm, wait, yes I did...

The arrogance that oozes out of this guys mouth is astounding..
thehype
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Oct 12 2007, 08:01 PM) [snapback]361002[/snapback]
This is a load of bollocks.

What you have is people training in certain disciplines for years, since they were kids or teenagers, and then adding other aspects to their game in order to enter MMA (EG boxer/kickboxer adds grappling, wrestler/jiu-jitsu adds striking). The complete MMA skillset may be new, but these are people who have been training in one form of combat discipline for years prior to making the transition

Saying that you can go from having no fighting training to elite MMA fighter in 3 years!!!!!!!!! I'm sure there would be some freaky athletic people out there who could do it, but they would be rare rather than the norm, and they would also be able to do the same with boxing. They are the exception, not the norm. And besides, just like alot of the undercards in boxing, alot of the MMA undercards arent elite fighters. They are guys striving to become elite

Andrei Arlovski - multiple Sambo titles
Thiago Alves- training in Muay Thai since 15
Micheal Bisping has done martial arts since he was 8
Couture: Four time World Team member, Placed 9th in the 1997 World Championship in Poland, Pan American Games champion, Four time National Champion in Greco-Roman, three time All-American in college, two time runner-up at NCAA National Championships. Alternate for the Olympic team 4 times.
Cro-cops been fighting since 1994
Gonzaga : Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt / Titles: 2006 Mundials Champion, Heavyweight BJJ Black Belt GP 2004 Champion/ ADCC Trials Brazil Champion and ADCC 2005 second place, four-time BJJ national Champion / five-time Sao Paulo State Champion
Matt Hamill: three time NCAA national wrestling champion and two time world champion for freestyle wrestling

The list goes on....


It's not a "load of bollocks"...I think you're just skimming the surface of what I just said and don't really understand the depth to which I'm speaking. I never said that someone could go from "no fighting training to elite MMA fighter in 3 years"...obviously I'm assuming that in some way, shape or form, that person would have at least done some type of fighting in one way or another...whether it was some sort of street fighting or just your basic Tae Kwon Do. On the contrary, what I said is that you could take a fighter with LIMITED SKILLS and teach him enough tools in each discipline to be competitive among some of the top fighters. Take Josh Koscheck for example. Great wrestler no doubt...but he wasn't skilled at all in striking, Jiu Jitsu, etc....and yet, if you teach him just enough in some of the other disciplines...not enough to be the best of the best in those disciplines, but just enough to make him competitive against the former welterweight champion. You see, there's a lot of wrestlers out there...a lot of people taking Tae Kwon Do, Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, boxing, thumb wrestling...you name it...none of them may be world-class, elite athletes, but they all have some type of training in a particular discipline and if you can teach them just enough in some of the other disciplines, then all of a sudden, you've got someone who can probably compete on the big stage with the top fighters. There are sooooo many guys out there. There will always be some other guy waiting in the wings. It'll always be easy to find the next big thing because the supply of fighters out there wanting to make a quick 5, 10, 20 or 50K is almost unlimited. For all those fighters in the UFC that are complaining about their pay, there's a bunch of other fighters in the WEC that would be more than happy to take their place...not to mention a ton of other guys in other organizations.
AussieLad
QUOTE(thehype @ Oct 13 2007, 11:53 PM) [snapback]361152[/snapback]
It's not a "load of bollocks"...I think you're just skimming the surface of what I just said and don't really understand the depth to which I'm speaking. I never said that someone could go from "no fighting training to elite MMA fighter in 3 years"...obviously I'm assuming that in some way, shape or form, that person would have at least done some type of fighting in one way or another...whether it was some sort of street fighting or just your basic Tae Kwon Do. On the contrary, what I said is that you could take a fighter with LIMITED SKILLS and teach him enough tools in each discipline to be competitive among some of the top fighters. Take Josh Koscheck for example. Great wrestler no doubt...but he wasn't skilled at all in striking, Jiu Jitsu, etc....and yet, if you teach him just enough in some of the other disciplines...not enough to be the best of the best in those disciplines, but just enough to make him competitive against the former welterweight champion. You see, there's a lot of wrestlers out there...a lot of people taking Tae Kwon Do, Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, boxing, thumb wrestling...you name it...none of them may be world-class, elite athletes, but they all have some type of training in a particular discipline and if you can teach them just enough in some of the other disciplines, then all of a sudden, you've got someone who can probably compete on the big stage with the top fighters. There are sooooo many guys out there. There will always be some other guy waiting in the wings. It'll always be easy to find the next big thing because the supply of fighters out there wanting to make a quick 5, 10, 20 or 50K is almost unlimited. For all those fighters in the UFC that are complaining about their pay, there's a bunch of other fighters in the WEC that would be more than happy to take their place...not to mention a ton of other guys in other organizations.


Give me some examples of these guys that never became champions in their base style, that went on to be highly competitive against elite MMA fighters after 3 years.

And your josh koschek example, i believe joe rogan was commentating during one of his fights that he is an example of a guy who had achieved greatness in one sport, and is using that experience and dedication it takes to become great in one area to be able to become great in another. I can see the sense behind that argument. He is not an everyday example of someone with a bit of experience in martial arts deciding to make a quick 5, 10, 20 or 50K. He was a national champion and 42-0
4 X NCAA div. 1 all American

I cant see how your argument differs to boxing? There are examples of guys in boxing who came to the sport late with no ammateur background no less, and made it to world title level fights, say danny green as an example, or valuev amongst others. And there are examples of guys from different fighting backgrounds that came into boxing and be succesfull, say Vitali Klitschko

Maybe i am mistaken, but the impression i get from reading your posts is that you think that boxing requires more skill than MMA (understandable from a predominantly boxing site, and that i am a boxing fan as well). But honestly, boxing is to mma what checkers is to chess. A kit of punches compared to an almost complete arsenal of weapons the human body is capable of. And this is coming from a fan who prefers boxing
jlupi
“Randy’s contract was on a fight-by-fight basis, and that’s the way he said he was always going to take it – fight by fight,” said Matt Walker, Couture’s agent at The Gersh Agency>>>>>


I guess they will be going to court since white says randy has 2 more fights
jlupi
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Oct 14 2007, 12:07 AM) [snapback]361166[/snapback]
Maybe i am mistaken, but the impression i get from reading your posts is that you think that boxing requires more skill than MMA (understandable from a predominantly boxing site, and that i am a boxing fan as well). But honestly, boxing is to mma what checkers is to chess. A kit of punches compared to an almost complete arsenal of weapons the human body is capable of. And this is coming from a fan who prefers boxing



if that was hypes intention I agree with it. Liddell became a legend by being hard to take down and having power, he was always way open for counters by a good striker. Jackson destroyed him because he's an OK boxer.
Tha Docta


didnt BJ Penn get the nickname "the prodigy" because he had only trained in ju jitsu for a few years and was already nasty??
jlupi
now henderson is saying he will not resign with the UFC at the $$$ there talking and here is a new shamrock interview http://www.irishwhipfighting.com/2007/10/k...-interview.html
AussieLad
QUOTE(jlupi @ Oct 16 2007, 06:28 PM) [snapback]361424[/snapback]
if that was hypes intention I agree with it. Liddell became a legend by being hard to take down and having power, he was always way open for counters by a good striker. Jackson destroyed him because he's an OK boxer.


Look at ray mercer, an olympic gold medalist, he couldnt even beat kimbo slice. A backyard bare knuckle fighter

You know what floyds skillfull shoulder roll against the ropes gets him in a MMA contest? He gets a knee to the face and a short trip to the canvas.

Jackson destroyed lidell because chuck did something stupid and charged in without setting up a body shot. Jackson needed more than punches to beat chuck the first time round, but chuck gave him a gift in the rematch and jackson exploited it. Simple as that


AussieLad
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Oct 16 2007, 07:21 PM) [snapback]361432[/snapback]
didnt BJ Penn get the nickname "the prodigy" because he had only trained in ju jitsu for a few years and was already nasty??


Started in 96. UFC.com lists him as the most decorated jiu-jitsu athlete in America. The first non-Brazilian to win the world championships at the black belt level.
BigG
Yeah, and Mercer was also about 99 going into that fight.

Let's review the fight.....Bell rings, Kimbo runs accross the ring, pushes Mercer into the the cage, he puts Mercer in a clinch for a while and aboslutely nothing happens, he gets Mercer down, Mercer taps, fight over. WTF was that?

This is why I prefer boxing.
AussieLad
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Oct 17 2007, 09:26 AM) [snapback]361502[/snapback]
Yeah, and Mercer was also about 99 going into that fight.

Let's review the fight.....Bell rings, Kimbo runs accross the ring, pushes Mercer into the the cage, he puts Mercer in a clinch for a while and aboslutely nothing happens, he gets Mercer down, Mercer taps, fight over. WTF was that?

This is why I prefer boxing.


Lidell is no spring chicken either.

Doesnt change the fact that a gold medalist olympian, someone who was in with lennox lewis, got iced by a backyard bare knuckle bum (a guy thats only recently started training in MMA). You'd think with all that boxing skill he couldve just KO'd kimbo with some average boxing like rampage ko'd chuck

Fact is, wrestling and jiu jitsu are just as dificult skills to master as throwing punches and keeping your hands up. Kimbo isnt even a skilled wrestler or at submissions, in fact he isnt even of average ability. Mercer had no idea how to deal with even a basic grapple attack
AussieLad
QUOTE(jlupi @ Oct 16 2007, 06:28 PM) [snapback]361424[/snapback]
if that was hypes intention I agree with it. Liddell became a legend by being hard to take down and having power, he was always way open for counters by a good striker. Jackson destroyed him because he's an OK boxer.


Hypothetical scenario just for fun

Imagine if you could take the best boxer in the world and clone him perfectly, skills and all. Now you have two perfectly equal guys.

Then you teach the clone grappling, kicks, submissions, elbows, knees, throws.

Now, who has the most skills?

More weapons equals more skills to master, more variations in defence and attack, more versatility in general. Seems fairly simple to comprehend to me. A boxer breaks his power hand, what can he do now but jab and hook? A MMA fighter in the same situation still has a large arsenal leftover?

I bet your answer was still the boxer?

The only difference between boxing and MMA is that people have been playing the game longer in order to fine tune things to a very subtle level. MMA is still evolving. But even still, its easier to master checkers than it is to master chess.
jlupi
Lidell is no spring chicken either.

Doesnt change the fact that a gold medalist olympian, someone who was in with lennox lewis, got iced by a backyard bare knuckle bum (a guy thats only recently started training in MMA). You'd think with all that boxing skill he couldve just KO'd kimbo with some average boxing like rampage ko'd chuck

Fact is, wrestling and jiu jitsu are just as dificult skills to master as throwing punches and keeping your hands up. Kimbo isnt even a skilled wrestler or at submissions, in fact he isnt even of average ability. Mercer had no idea how to deal with even a basic grapple attack
>>>>

one was considered the top dog the other shot in his sport let alone learn another.

I have watched liddel since the beginning and always said he would be iced against a good boxer.
I dont think floyd would adapt well at all to mma. but there are those that I think have the offensive arsinal and skills that would simply embarace the vast magority in MMA. Most simply suck at striking/boxing and they are basicly bare knuckle. In fact many top matches are starting to stay staanding for a good portion of the fight. so other than driving your elbow against the guy against the cage(ufc) we get to see not much better than touphman quality boxing.
thehype
Actually, Aussie, you're missing my whole point ENTIRELY as I'm not even trying to make a comparison between boxing and MMA. That's not my point at all and you're getting waaaaaay off track.

The original discussion was whether or not Randy's departure is going to force the UFC to start paying these athletes appropiately. My opinion is that it won't. My whole point was that because it's very easy to find athletes in all of those different disciplines...atheletes in wrestling, boxing, jiu jitsu, muay thai, kickboxing, judo, kung fu...it's very easy to have a high turnover rate because those athletes can be taught the right tools they need to be competitive in the sport of MMA. You're pretty much proving my point. Take Koscheck for example...like you said, "a national champion and 42-0 4 X NCAA div. 1 all American"...that's perfect...take him, teach him some jiu jitsu, teach him some striking...and voila...now you have a competitive mixed martial artist who could potentially replace any star who was contemplating leaving the sport because he felt he wasn't getting paid the money he deserves.

The discussion never revolved around which sport has the better athletes (and for the record, it's my opinion that MMA has the better athletes)....the discussion was about Couture's stand against the establishment...his willingness to walk away because he felt as though he wasn't getting the "respect" he deserved. Some people were saying that the move could cause ripples and force the UFC to really look at the manner in which it pays it's fighters. My opinion was that Randy's departure won't have any impact whatsoever simply because there are so many athletes in so many different fighting disciplines that can be taught enough tools to be competitive and marketable. Case in point, Kimbo Slice. He was never a national champion of anything other than whoopin ass in backyards...now he's fighting on the elite level of Elite XC. Another example, Chris Leben...a guy who wrestled in high school who has fought some of the elite fighters in the UFC. One more example...Houston Alexander. Need another? How about Forrest Griffin? I'm sure there are literally thousands of examples of fighters like that who were never national champions or the best of the best in one particular discipline, but have learned enough to be competitive on the elite level...and all of those guys are just waiting in the wings for their opportunity and would be more than happy to receive the money that Dana White and the UFC sees fit to pay it's current crop of elite fighters. That's the reason why I don't think Randy's departure will have any impact whatsoever on how these fighters get paid...simply because there are a lot of guys waiting in the wings who, with the right training, can easily become upper echelon fighters and household names. If Quinton Jackson, Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz and Wanderlei Silva all decided to go on strike...I'm sure Houston Alexander and Forrest Griffin wouldn't have any problems with taking whatever money Dana White was paying those guys.

Oh, and just to touch on that BJ Penn point, Penn was first introduced to Jiu Jitsu at the age of seventeen in 1997....four years later, in 2001, the Prodigy debuts in the UFC and a year after that, he fights for the UFC lightweight championship. So for any person out there who has any type of experience in fighting...even if it's just a few fights in high school...it would be easier to start a career and make some money in MMA than it would be to start a career and make some money in boxing. I highly doubt that a person could start training in boxing at the age of 17, make his pro debut four years later, and then get a title shot a year after that. So my point is that Dana White and the UFC isn't too concerned about paying the fighters the type of money that boxers get simply because there's so much supply out there for them to tap into. It's like the laws of supply and demand...the supply out there is in excess so the price stays low.
DEP Nihilist
Hilarious Frank Shamrock interview about Couture...

FRANK SHAMROCK ON RANDY COUTURE

Q&A with a Legend about a Legend


By Mary Van Note


MV: It's huge news all over the internet and I'd love to hear you weigh-in on the subject. Was this a smart move for Couture?
FS: This was the smartest move that Randy Couture could have made at this point in his career. At his age, and with the level of athletes growing in the sport, he was smart to get out. Also with the UFC only focusing on their brand and not the talent, his growth was always limited in that show.


MV: What other opportunities does he have to fight in MMA while not with Zuffa's Pride or UFC?
FS: Randy Couture is a movie star and a household name. He is a martial artist of the highest caliber. He has diversified into everything from books, movies, shavers, clothing lines, and other endorsements. I don’t think he will ever fight again nor does he need to.


MV: What do you know about his allegations that he was most likely not paid as well or as much as other top fighters like Silva and Lidell?
FS: I am sure that they are true. The UFC is only concerned about their brand, not the sport of MMA. It took them years to realize that Randy was an American hero. It took MMA about 5 minutes.


MV: How does this affect MMA in general? And specifically the brand of UFC?
FS: It hurts the UFC big-time; more than when I left the sport as they have no stars in their shows now. The last is Liddell and his life span is short.
MMA will be fine as the new fans don’t know about the sport or its history anyways.


MV: Any chance you would fight Couture?
FS: Would love to have him kick my butt. I have trained with him many times and he is the real deal.


MV: I see similarities with your career with Couture's. He left the UFC at the peak of his career for "hollywood." Any thoughts?
FS: He is smart and the jig is up with the UFC. The threats from Dana and his retarded business practices are catching up with the company. The truth always comes out and there it is. This sport is about the martial way not his way.


MV: What is the future of MMA?
FS: Frank Shamrock.


MV: What is the UFC doing wrong... to lose their top talent?
FS: “U Fight Cheap” is their moniker. MMA is about the incredible people who do it, not the company that shows it. Stars drive the sport, not Dana. He is an idiot who should go back to managing a gym where he came from and quit messing up our beautiful art form.

Finally for all the new fans, do some research on MMA and the sport. Don’t believe what they sell you on TV and PPV. This sport is amazing with some real history that should be appreciated. The UFC makes their own history up for money. Don’t be a follower be a fanatic!


FrankShamrock.com
ShamrockMartialArts.com
MMAStars.com


LMAO @ U Fight Cheap
jlupi
Mistranslations during the press-conference for M1

Just watched the press-conference and noticed a few mistranslations here and there. I feel like I have to clear up a few things from the journalists' logs. I will first quote what journalists typically wrote, and then will give a correct translation.



Fedor also said he respects Randy not just for his fighting qualities but also his human qualities.
Actually Fedor said that he respects Randy not for his fighting qualities (a little earlier he was talking about how much Randy lost), but mainly for his human qualities. This changes a lot...



He said that Pride champions were truly international champions
He said that Pride truly tried to have international champions, without looking at nationality or country of origin. He didn't say that Pride succeeded in this task.



He said that Pride champions were truly international champions, but now Pride is gone and they would like to create a new project that may be even better.
Actually, he didn't say "new project" but was talking about "a new Pride".



I deeply respect him and have been watching him since his first fight. I admire him greatly. Once in Prague (Czech Republic), he saw me and I came away with a warm feeling, and it will be an honor for me to fight him.
Good translation otherwise, except that he was talking about a Pride event and not about the city of Prague.


At least one other point was also missed. It was said that the M-1 is in a contact with fighters. Translator made believe that they were talking about Russian fighters. Well, actually they were talking about European fighters and about how much good contacts they have with good fighters all around the Europe.

Otherwise, it was a good translation, so I am not taking my words back. smile.gif
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