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Tha Docta
I just watched the first holyfield vs moorer fight the other night and I could not get over the fact that holyfields body looked so unnaturally large and musclebound. the way he looked, combined with the recent info of holyfield ordering human growth hormone, i wonder just how long he was juicing?? did he start juicing at light heavy to bulk up to heavy?? i dont think there is a chance in hell that someone gets that musclebound without using some sort of steroid.

holyfield appears to have gotten a free pass when it comes to this issue.
singletrack
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Oct 19 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]361632[/snapback]
I just watched the first holyfield vs moorer fight the other night and I could not get over the fact that holyfields body looked so unnaturally large and musclebound. the way he looked, combined with the recent info of holyfield ordering human growth hormone, i wonder just how long he was juicing?? did he start juicing at light heavy to bulk up to heavy?? i dont think there is a chance in hell that someone gets that musclebound without using some sort of steroid.

holyfield appears to have gotten a free pass when it comes to this issue.


I know he trained with Lee Haney in 1990, so I would say at least since then. Ironically, 1990 was the only drug tested Olympia ever.
Big Slim Sweet
I think most everyone realizes Holyfield used steroids in he late 80's/90's when he was making his way into the heavyweight division. If you don't think he did, you're letting your heart and affection for the fighter get in the way of logic. Of course he used them.

But as for him getting a free pass...Yes and no. I believe had Holyfield been some sort of indestructible knockout machine or a fighter with hands faster than the speed of light during that time, then more fans would hold the steroids assumption aganst him. But that wasn't the case. He was blue collar all the way. It was his heart and determination that made him the fighter he was. Those are the things that made him so appealing to boxing fans, and those are things that steroids can't help you with.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 19 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]361641[/snapback]
I think most everyone realizes Holyfield used steroids in he late 80's/90's when he was making his way into the heavyweight division. If you don't think he did, you're letting your heart and affection for the fighter get in the way of logic. Of course he used them.

But as for him getting a free pass...Yes and no. I believe had Holyfield been some sort of indestructible knockout machine or a fighter with hands faster than the speed of light during that time, then more fans would hold the steroids assumption aganst him. But that wasn't the case. He was blue collar all the way. It was his heart and determination that made him the fighter he was. Those are the things that made him so appealing to boxing fans, and those are things that steroids can't help you with.



Heart and determination could be translated as stamina and endurance. Dwight Qawi definatly thought Holy was on something in their bouts. he said there was no way any man had that much endurance late in a fight...
Lil-lightsout
I get so sick of hearing about all this steroid stuff, it's always the big names being mentioned(Mosley, Jones, Vargas, Holyfield, etc.). Personally, I could care less, because in all these pro sports most athletes juice, it is just few get caught. They should just legalize it, because the use of steroids is never going to stop. If they want to pump that shit into there body, go for it, does not affect me one bit.
flazi
steriods don't do jack for your stamina. GH doesn't get you big neither, it does get you cut and helps you heal faster but its not like testoterone as far as gaining muscle.
Warlord
Actually, for the most part, steroids tend to have a negative impact on your long term stamina. Vargas/DLH is a perfect example.
X3_Bazooka_X3
Please, Keep on hating, Evander has yet to test postive once for steroids yet because he is implicated in a scandal you all take that as fact rather than allowing due process to take its course if we looked at every fighter that way Mosley would for surely be just as guilty but I am betting that none of you think Mosley was juiced up.
Holyfield IMO is one of the most loved and hated fighters of my era, its sad to see how all of you pro Tyson fans will dig for shit becuase he beat the piss out of Iron Mike.
Look until he test positive there is no way you can say he used it bottom line, Hell even when Toney turned up positive you all still beleived that Bullshit story about his Dr perscribing some shit, now that the second postive test turned out you all scattered like a bunch of roaches but isnt that what roaches do when the lights turn on?
mrchrissanchez
QUOTE(X3_Bazooka_X3 @ Oct 19 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]361669[/snapback]
Please, Keep on hating, Evander has yet to test postive once for steroids yet because he is implicated in a scandal you all take that as fact rather than allowing due process to take its course if we looked at every fighter that way Mosley would for surely be just as guilty but I am betting that none of you think Mosley was juiced up.
Holyfield IMO is one of the most loved and hated fighters of my era, its sad to see how all of you pro Tyson fans will dig for shit becuase he beat the piss out of Iron Mike.
Look until he test positive there is no way you can say he used it bottom line, Hell even when Toney turned up positive you all still beleived that Bullshit story about his Dr perscribing some shit, now that the second postive test turned out you all scattered like a bunch of roaches but isnt that what roaches do when the lights turn on?

according to my knowledge of boxing Holyfield has always been in superb shape... you cant say that about all boxers
thisneverworks
I watched that fight over the weekend as well. He definitely is ridiculously ripped (and he was tired during that fight, which would lend himself to steroids..not to mention his mysterious "heart" issue later in his career that lead to fatigue) but more importantly I never realized how much the guy used his head.

When I first heard Tyson complain about it I figured he was just whining about getting his ass kicked but since watching a lot of his older fights his head is definitely 3rd fist.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(thisneverworks @ Oct 22 2007, 04:10 PM) [snapback]362000[/snapback]
I watched that fight over the weekend as well. He definitely is ridiculously ripped (and he was tired during that fight, which would lend himself to steroids..not to mention his mysterious "heart" issue later in his career that lead to fatigue) but more importantly I never realized how much the guy used his head.

When I first heard Tyson complain about it I figured he was just whining about getting his ass kicked but since watching a lot of his older fights his head is definitely 3rd fist.



there is no debate about whether or not holyfield uses his head. the man has used it his entire career. in fact, just look at his trunks for most of his fights and the word "head" is on the back of them. its a nickname that was given to him in the gym. can anybody guess how he got it?

i dont think holyfield is the only one to take roids though, thats not what i was saying. just that he looked unnaturally large in his fight with moorer. and of course the mysterious heart ailment that was healed by the hands of god according to holyfield himself.

and of course evander didnt know anything about the HGH that was being delivered to a person named Evan Fields. evan fields also happened to live in the same house as evander apparently, but nobody has ever seen him.
JD
I am a HUGE Evander fan...always have been. In fact, I am a fan to the point that I do not want to see him fight anymore.

Anyone who doesn't think Holyfield was on HGH and / or Steroids is seriously delusional.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(JD @ Oct 22 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]362018[/snapback]
I am a HUGE Evander fan...always have been. In fact, I am a fan to the point that I do not want to see him fight anymore.

Anyone who doesn't think Holyfield was on HGH and / or Steroids is seriously delusional.




I equate that with this:

I'm a huge Michael Jackson fan... Almost to the point that I dont want to see him tour anymore.

Anyone who thinks Michael had plastic surgery, bleached his skin or harmed any little kids is seriously delusional.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Oct 22 2007, 06:48 PM) [snapback]362022[/snapback]
I equate that with this:

I'm a huge Michael Jackson fan... Almost to the point that I dont want to see him tour anymore.

Anyone who thinks Michael had plastic surgery, bleached his skin or harmed any little kids is seriously delusional.



so are you saying holyfield didnt use steroids or hgh? i think its obvious that he did. but there really wasnt much proof until within this past year with the hgh bust in florida.
HaydelHammer
What does looking like how he looked in a fight make you feel like he was on roids?

James Toney took roids for crying out loud. He looks like boiled sh*t.

Rafael Palmero took em and he looked like mr. rogers.



Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(X3_Bazooka_X3 @ Oct 19 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]361669[/snapback]
Please, Keep on hating, Evander has yet to test postive once for steroids yet because he is implicated in a scandal you all take that as fact rather than allowing due process to take its course if we looked at every fighter that way Mosley would for surely be just as guilty but I am betting that none of you think Mosley was juiced up.
Holyfield IMO is one of the most loved and hated fighters of my era, its sad to see how all of you pro Tyson fans will dig for shit becuase he beat the piss out of Iron Mike.
Look until he test positive there is no way you can say he used it bottom line, Hell even when Toney turned up positive you all still beleived that Bullshit story about his Dr perscribing some shit, now that the second postive test turned out you all scattered like a bunch of roaches but isnt that what roaches do when the lights turn on?

This would be exhibit A in what I was referring to, letting your affection for the fighter get in the way of logic.

Look, no hate here brother. Evander Holyfield is one of my favorite fighters of all time. But I am absolutely certain he juiced for much of his career. I don't need a positive test to tell me what my eyes already have. Same way I don't need definitive proof that Barry Bonds juiced. I know he did. And you know what? I don't really care. My feeling, in boxing at least, is that taking steroids and HGH and whatever else these guys are doing offers just as many disadvantages in the ring as advantages. I do not believe that juicing negates an athlete's achievements or that anyone could do what a Holyfield or a Bonds did with chemical enhancement. My guess is that probably 95% of professional athletes are on/have been on something illegal in the past 20 years and that at this point you really can't be a sports fan any longer if this reality upsets you.
JD
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Oct 22 2007, 07:37 PM) [snapback]362024[/snapback]
so are you saying holyfield didnt use steroids or hgh? i think its obvious that he did. but there really wasnt much proof until within this past year with the hgh bust in florida.


LOL...right?

I am confused by what he was saying...
X3_Bazooka_X3
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 22 2007, 07:24 PM) [snapback]362036[/snapback]
This would be exhibit A in what I was referring to, letting your affection for the fighter get in the way of logic.

Look, no hate here brother. Evander Holyfield is one of my favorite fighters of all time. But I am absolutely certain he juiced for much of his career. I don't need a positive test to tell me what my eyes already have. Same way I don't need definitive proof that Barry Bonds juiced. I know he did. And you know what? I don't really care. My feeling, in boxing at least, is that taking steroids and HGH and whatever else these guys are doing offers just as many disadvantages in the ring as advantages. I do not believe that juicing negates an athlete's achievements or that anyone could do what a Holyfield or a Bonds did with chemical enhancement. My guess is that probably 95% of professional athletes are on/have been on something illegal in the past 20 years and that at this point you really can't be a sports fan any longer if this reality upsets you.


Until a test proves otherwise you are lying, you can not take this to court as it stands now and prove guilt there is no proof, I am saying this straight up and you aint got to like it but its the fact and you can not say other wise unless a test provides proof, Holyfield has not to my full knowledge and yours used any illegal steriods, end of story, now what you might think is another issue, its your opinion but reality checking here, Your opinion is not fact
singletrack
QUOTE(X3_Bazooka_X3 @ Oct 22 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]362038[/snapback]
Until a test proves otherwise you are lying, you can not take this to court as it stands now and prove guilt there is no proof, I am saying this straight up and you aint got to like it but its the fact and you can not say other wise unless a test provides proof, Holyfield has not to my full knowledge and yours used any illegal steriods, end of story, now what you might think is another issue, its your opinion but reality checking here, Your opinion is not fact


No it's not fact, but it's a pretty damn good guess.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(JD @ Oct 22 2007, 10:27 PM) [snapback]362037[/snapback]
LOL...right?

I am confused by what he was saying...



You know what, I apologize. I didn't read the word DOESNT in your original post. If you were to take out the word DOESNT, then my post will make alot more sense. I do agree with you that I think that the first H in HGH stands for Holyfield. No question that he was a roider... Again, I apologize for being lazy and missing the word DOESNT.
flazi
fitz, they dope but not steriods. they use epo and blood doping.
singletrack
QUOTE(flazi @ Oct 23 2007, 01:57 AM) [snapback]362052[/snapback]
fitz, they dope but not steriods. they use epo and blood doping.


It's not only that man - steroids affect a lot of things, including muscle fatigue and recovery. Did you forget that Landis had synthetic testosterone in his system when he was stripped of his title?
Tha Docta
QUOTE(X3_Bazooka_X3 @ Oct 22 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]362038[/snapback]
Until a test proves otherwise you are lying, you can not take this to court as it stands now and prove guilt there is no proof, I am saying this straight up and you aint got to like it but its the fact and you can not say other wise unless a test provides proof, Holyfield has not to my full knowledge and yours used any illegal steriods, end of story, now what you might think is another issue, its your opinion but reality checking here, Your opinion is not fact



barry bonds has never tested positive either. so no, this isnt a fact. what is a fact is that holyfield purchased human growth hormone from a pharmacy in Florida under the name evan fields.

holyfield would have still been an all time great light heavy, but i dont think he would have made any noise at heavyweight without the performance enhancers.


and btw, steroids are used in cycling to help their muscles recover in between stages of the race. epo is used to increase indurance while the steroids help the muscles recover.
MarzB
n fact, just look at his trunks for most of his fights and the word "head" is on the back of them. its a nickname that was given to him in the gym. can anybody guess how he got it?

This has got to be a joke right?? You seriously don't believe this do you??

"Head" is a sporting equipment manufacturer that Evander was signed to at the time.

I hate the allegations of steroids tossed at people until proven guilty. Namely because there are different types of steroids for different types of things. Most of all, they don't always guarantee success. . If people are basing Evander's physique as their sole evidence, keep it moving.. Now the thing mentioned with the guy and the same address, maybe I'll say has more credence.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(MarzB @ Oct 24 2007, 02:46 AM) [snapback]362169[/snapback]
n fact, just look at his trunks for most of his fights and the word "head" is on the back of them. its a nickname that was given to him in the gym. can anybody guess how he got it?

This has got to be a joke right?? You seriously don't believe this do you??

"Head" is a sporting equipment manufacturer that Evander was signed to at the time.

I hate the allegations of steroids tossed at people until proven guilty. Namely because there are different types of steroids for different types of things. Most of all, they don't always guarantee success. . If people are basing Evander's physique as their sole evidence, keep it moving.. Now the thing mentioned with the guy and the same address, maybe I'll say has more credence.



i read in an vernon forrest interview that everyone use to call holyfield "head" at the gym.
BrutalBodyShots
That's pretty funny. I always saw "head" on his trunks and never associated it with his head use in the ring until this thread. Good stuff.

LeeGenius
Its idiotic to repeat the meme that steroids dont do anything for your stamina. They actually allow you to recover faster. In the gym that means being able to push through soreness and pain and to attain massive gains. In the ring this means incredibly recovery time ALA FUCKING HOLYFIELD'S MO HIS WHOLE CAREER. There are different kinds of steroids and chemicals that affect you in different ways. No boxer would take something that completely depleated their stamina.

Dudes entire life is a sham and he pulls the wool over peoples eyes with an aw shucks smile and his Jesus babble.

He sets himself up like some fucking Bible thumping family man but dude rivals Shawn Kemp for kids out of wedlock.

He uses his head as his number one weapon in the ring over and over and over again.

and now he gets caught red handed using roids and hgh under the name "Evan Fields" -- dude answers the phone under the name and the number, lies about it and claims its not him and Holyfield lovers still gobble up the guys balls. Barry Bonds has never failed a roids test either folks. There are masking agents and you stop cycling weeks prior to pass. those who fail usually do so because they fuck up the process somehow. Lets not be stupid people.

I respect an out-in-the-open crazy thug like Tyson, who make no secret of his flaws, more than Holyfield, the fucking lying fraud who has been decieving everyone the past 20 years attempting to paint a picture of himself as someone he clearly is not.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(LeeGenius @ Oct 25 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]362305[/snapback]
Its idiotic to repeat the meme that steroids dont do anything for your stamina. They actually allow you to recover faster. In the gym that means being able to push through soreness and pain and to attain massive gains. In the ring this means incredibly recovery time ALA FUCKING HOLYFIELD'S MO HIS WHOLE CAREER. There are different kinds of steroids and chemicals that affect you in different ways. No boxer would take something that completely depleated their stamina.

Dudes entire life is a sham and he pulls the wool over peoples eyes with an aw shucks smile and his Jesus babble.

He sets himself up like some fucking Bible thumping family man but dude rivals Shawn Kemp for kids out of wedlock.

He uses his head as his number one weapon in the ring over and over and over again.

and now he gets caught red handed using roids and hgh under the name "Evan Fields" -- dude answers the phone under the name and the number, lies about it and claims its not him and Holyfield lovers still gobble up the guys balls. Barry Bonds has never failed a roids test either folks. There are masking agents and you stop cycling weeks prior to pass. those who fail usually do so because they fuck up the process somehow. Lets not be stupid people.

I respect an out-in-the-open crazy thug like Tyson, who make no secret of his flaws, more than Holyfield, the fucking lying fraud who has been decieving everyone the past 20 years attempting to paint a picture of himself as someone he clearly is not.


Damn, pretty strong view there. Can't say I completely disagree with it though.

Big Slim Sweet
Genius Lee how do you know Tyson didn't take roids?

I can't imagine being a boxing fan and thinking of Holyfield's entire life as a sham.
BrutalBodyShots
I don't think Tyson took roids... I mean at the age of 17-18 he was a solid 217-218 pound beast and was basically in the 218-223 pound range for his prime. There was never a time when Tyson suddenly got bigger or anything. Unless of course he was using roids since he was 15-16. Anything is possible I suppose.

Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 25 2007, 11:33 AM) [snapback]362319[/snapback]
I don't think Tyson took roids... I mean at the age of 17-18 he was a solid 217-218 pound beast and was basically in the 218-223 pound range for his prime. There was never a time when Tyson suddenly got bigger or anything. Unless of course he was using roids since he was 15-16. Anything is possible I suppose.

Exactly. Anything is possible. And for the record I'm not specifically accusing Tyson of using steroids either, just that at this point I think it's pretty clear the vast majority of these guys are/have been using something, and I wouldn't go overboard slandering one guy you might suspect because in all likelihood more guys you don't suspect are doing the same thing.
LeeGenius
My comment was not about Tyson using roids. It was about the fact that I respect some one who is flawed, fucked up and out in the open about it over a guy who lies and decieves everyone under this pretense of a great family man and "warrior".

Its odd that when the steroid thing came out on Holy he wasted absolutely NO time at all deflecting the attention to Tyson. "Uh, nah I didnt do it but TYSON did" like a 3rd grader deflecting blame.

I bet, if asked, Tyson would be up front and honest about what he has and hasnt taken.
LeeGenius
I suppose it is kismit that I just saw a replay of Bowe III where the announcers just commented on how much of a fucking warrior Holyfruad is because he apparently was fighting while needing heart bypass surgury. You see, this Holyfield ballsack jocking has been going on for quite some time now. I dont know what it is with the guy.


Holyfrauds explanation for his future recovery was that TV preacher and fellow monumental fraud Benny Hinn healed him.

I cannot help but to wonder that if the heart diagnosis was correct, maybe it was due to the shit he was putting into his body.
singletrack
QUOTE(LeeGenius @ Oct 25 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]362305[/snapback]
Its idiotic to repeat the meme that steroids dont do anything for your stamina. They actually allow you to recover faster. In the gym that means being able to push through soreness and pain and to attain massive gains. In the ring this means incredibly recovery time ALA FUCKING HOLYFIELD'S MO HIS WHOLE CAREER. There are different kinds of steroids and chemicals that affect you in different ways. No boxer would take something that completely depleated their stamina.

Dudes entire life is a sham and he pulls the wool over peoples eyes with an aw shucks smile and his Jesus babble.

He sets himself up like some fucking Bible thumping family man but dude rivals Shawn Kemp for kids out of wedlock.

He uses his head as his number one weapon in the ring over and over and over again.

and now he gets caught red handed using roids and hgh under the name "Evan Fields" -- dude answers the phone under the name and the number, lies about it and claims its not him and Holyfield lovers still gobble up the guys balls. Barry Bonds has never failed a roids test either folks. There are masking agents and you stop cycling weeks prior to pass. those who fail usually do so because they fuck up the process somehow. Lets not be stupid people.

I respect an out-in-the-open crazy thug like Tyson, who make no secret of his flaws, more than Holyfield, the fucking lying fraud who has been decieving everyone the past 20 years attempting to paint a picture of himself as someone he clearly is not.


KO!
BigG
QUOTE
He sets himself up like some fucking Bible thumping family man but dude rivals Shawn Kemp for kids out of wedlock.


LOL....true.
Fitz
I have asked this before but nobody gave me an answer. Didn't Holyfield turn to the bible AFTER his mistakes? I didn't he had his kids while he was all this religious type of guy, I thought he turned to religion because he made these mistakes and wanted to change himself?
I don't really know when Holyfield turned to religion, but I thought this was the case.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(Fitz @ Oct 30 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]362923[/snapback]
I have asked this before but nobody gave me an answer. Didn't Holyfield turn to the bible AFTER his mistakes? I didn't he had his kids while he was all this religious type of guy, I thought he turned to religion because he made these mistakes and wanted to change himself?
I don't really know when Holyfield turned to religion, but I thought this was the case.



holyfield was pawning himself off as a bible thumper before the story came out that he was knocking chicks up left and right. i cant blame him cause his bible thumping persona is probably why people cut him slack when it comes to these topics.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Fitz @ Oct 30 2007, 10:04 PM) [snapback]362923[/snapback]
I have asked this before but nobody gave me an answer. Didn't Holyfield turn to the bible AFTER his mistakes? I didn't he had his kids while he was all this religious type of guy, I thought he turned to religion because he made these mistakes and wanted to change himself?
I don't really know when Holyfield turned to religion, but I thought this was the case.

I believe he had some kids out of wedlock as a younger man, then became a religious fanatic and straightened up for a bit, but eventually slipped back into his old ways and started pumping them out left and right again.

Know what? Holyfield can take as many roids and have as many extramarital affairs as he wants, I still love the man for the heart and passion he always displayed in the ring. Fuck who feels different.
Tha Docta
if it were lennox lewis that was caught with steroids or hgh, i bet people would be outraged. but because holyfield displayed heart and passion he gets a pass.

i feel that he would not have been able to achieve many of the accomplishments at heavyweight without steroids or hgh.
Big Slim Sweet
It's not a pass I've just given up caring about this sort of thing. At least caring to the point of being outraged like so many self-righteous media members. I'm sure the majority of guys Holyfield fought were also using performance enhancers.

It's not like track where steroids will make you faster, or weightlifting where steroids will make you stronger. Boxing is as much mental as it is physical. I choose to honor the warrior spirit within. That to me is what made Holyfield who he was.

Nobudius
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 31 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]362956[/snapback]
It's not like track where steroids will make you faster, or weightlifting where steroids will make you stronger. Boxing is as much mental as it is physical. I choose to honor the warrior spirit within. That to me is what made Holyfield who he was.


People who compete in track or lifting go through BRUTAL schedules, & they are wrecks before they compete.

Don't tell them what they do isn't as "mental" as boxing.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Oct 31 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]362973[/snapback]
People who compete in track or lifting go through BRUTAL schedules, & they are wrecks before they compete.

Don't tell them what they do isn't as "mental" as boxing.



i would have no problem telling a track star that what he or she does isnt as "mental" as boxing. i think professional atheletes are aware that boxing is one of the most demanding sports to excel at.
LeeGenius
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 31 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]362956[/snapback]
It's not a pass I've just given up caring about this sort of thing. At least caring to the point of being outraged like so many self-righteous media members. I'm sure the majority of guys Holyfield fought were also using performance enhancers.

It's not like track where steroids will make you faster, or weightlifting where steroids will make you stronger. Boxing is as much mental as it is physical. I choose to honor the warrior spirit within. That to me is what made Holyfield who he was.



Even if holyfields ability to show "heart" namely, his incredible stamina and recuperative powers, where given to him by steroids and human growth hormone?

Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Oct 31 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]362973[/snapback]
People who compete in track or lifting go through BRUTAL schedules, & they are wrecks before they compete.

Don't tell them what they do isn't as "mental" as boxing.

Any athlete who competes in their sport at the top level obviously goes through hell in advance to prepare themselves (James Toney aside). But once the competition begins I believe there is no sport more physically and mentally demanding than boxing.

In this case though, we're talking about a different - or additional - kind of mental. This isn't just the 'will' to go on or whatever. You can't take steroids to become strong enough to knock your opponent out. You still need to be able to hit them. You still need to be able to figure out how to hit them. You still need to be able to walk through their return fire in order to hit them. A simple example would be to look at a fighter like Dominick Guinn. Skilled cat, but all the steroids in the world wouldn't give him the confidence to fight more aggressively. He'd still keep dropping all the same decisions he's already been dropping. It's just in his makeup. Holyfield's makeup was to go to war, to take whatever his opponent could throw at him and come right back and throw more. Steroids didn't give him that mentality. He was born with it.

QUOTE(LeeGenius @ Oct 31 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]362982[/snapback]
Even if holyfields ability to show "heart" namely, his incredible stamina and recuperative powers, where given to him by steroids and human growth hormone?

I see your argument, but there are plenty of cases where using steroids did nothing for a fighter's stamina and/or recuperative powers. They didn't exactly help Vargas when he fought De La Hoya, or McCline when he fought Wlad. They don't seem to do much for Shannon Briggs. Maybe you can say Holy was smarter about what he used than those guys, I don't know. But based on what I've seen with fighters, the use of performance enhancers isn't nearly as cut and dried as other sports.
Fitz
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Nov 1 2007, 02:00 AM) [snapback]362952[/snapback]
I believe he had some kids out of wedlock as a younger man, then became a religious fanatic and straightened up for a bit, but eventually slipped back into his old ways and started pumping them out left and right again.

Know what? Holyfield can take as many roids and have as many extramarital affairs as he wants, I still love the man for the heart and passion he always displayed in the ring. Fuck who feels different.


Thanks man. Cleared things up a little.

With steroids in boxing, I do not become outraged as well really now. I have accepted that it happens a lot now and it probably happens a whole lot more than what we find out. I prefer to not find out if a fighter has done it, but what can you do? I'm pretty sure that A LOT of them are doing it.
Also steroids doesn't make anyone good, all it does is push you that little bit more and give you an edge. It doesn't make champions, if I took it, it wouldn't make me into some kind of champion. You actually have to have worked quite hard, just as hard as you would have trained without it.
One case where the use of steroids kind of pissed me off was in the recent Marion Jones case. One thing to fuck yourself up, but seems like she fucked up with her team mates as well with the relay golds.
LeeGenius
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 31 2007, 05:06 PM) [snapback]362988[/snapback]
Any athlete who competes in their sport at the top level obviously goes through hell in advance to prepare themselves (James Toney aside). But once the competition begins I believe there is no sport more physically and mentally demanding than boxing.

In this case though, we're talking about a different - or additional - kind of mental. This isn't just the 'will' to go on or whatever. You can't take steroids to become strong enough to knock your opponent out. You still need to be able to hit them. You still need to be able to figure out how to hit them. You still need to be able to walk through their return fire in order to hit them. A simple example would be to look at a fighter like Dominick Guinn. Skilled cat, but all the steroids in the world wouldn't give him the confidence to fight more aggressively. He'd still keep dropping all the same decisions he's already been dropping. It's just in his makeup. Holyfield's makeup was to go to war, to take whatever his opponent could throw at him and come right back and throw more. Steroids didn't give him that mentality. He was born with it.
I see your argument, but there are plenty of cases where using steroids did nothing for a fighter's stamina and/or recuperative powers. They didn't exactly help Vargas when he fought De La Hoya, or McCline when he fought Wlad. They don't seem to do much for Shannon Briggs. Maybe you can say Holy was smarter about what he used than those guys, I don't know. But based on what I've seen with fighters, the use of performance enhancers isn't nearly as cut and dried as other sports.


Dwight Quawi was outspoken about Holys steroid use in an interview on another website you can find easily via google. He claims Holy was exhausted in the 5th round of their fight that Quawi was clearly winning until he was given a mysterious drink. Ive always been skeptical of those-type stories for obvious reasons but I have to winder when it comes to Holyfield. I can see him dropping a stimulant in order to regain stamina. Also that makes sense in terms of his mysterious heart ailment that went away because their abuse is bad on the heart Fact is, Holyfield was taking SOMETHING that was fucking up his heart, then obviously he stopped taking it and his shit healed up.

I also love how the fucker always claims he has "Jesuh" (thats how the ignorant fool pronounces Jesus) on his side helping him win fights but he didnt have enough faith to not juice up. I mean if your Gods so great why do you need performance enhancers? Like I said its not so much the roid use, its Holyfields hypocysy. Dudes the biggest liar and deciever in boxing. If he really believed "Jesuh" would help him whip asses, why the need for juicin'?
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(LeeGenius @ Nov 1 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]363052[/snapback]
If he really believed "Jesuh" would help him whip asses, why the need for juicin'?



Maybe it was "Jesuh Juice."
Big Slim Sweet
Well, Qawi's an idiot so I don't take much of what he says to mean much. I actually don't think Holyfield was taking anything during his cruiserweight days. I believe he started roiding with the move up to heavyweight. That was when his body changed - he was always cut but dude got friggin' huge. Remember all that footage Showtime would air of him before his ealry heavyweight fights working out like a fiend in the gym?

As for the hypocrisy angle, again I understand your take but I don't personally agree. I don't think it was a case where Evander talked about having Jesuh on his side but then didn't have enough true faith in himself not to juice. I think in his mind, Jesuh and steroids were basically one in the same. They were both tools he utilized which allowed him to work harder in the gym in order to be the best fighter he could be. You've got to consider, Evander was never the sharpest knife in the drawer, and that's before taking about 8 billion shots to the head.
Nobudius
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 31 2007, 05:06 PM) [snapback]362988[/snapback]
Any athlete who competes in their sport at the top level obviously goes through hell in advance to prepare themselves (James Toney aside). But once the competition begins I believe there is no sport more physically and mentally demanding than boxing.


Well, just for discussion sakes, a sport like wrestling has some similarities. A friend of mine has a brother who wrestled at Iowa, & his workout schedule made my jaw DROP. He was also a little "loose" upstairs, if you get the drift. Never saw him lift(although I did see him power clean a heavy, heavy weight with terrible form-he just WILLED it), but he had that old man's strength in spades. You know, the kind of death grip that don't let go.

As for roids, I'm sure some of you guys here have seen people dope. Sometimes, concrete evidence isn't really necessary to make an educated assumption. Kinda sad that some of you guys are accepting it for what it is (in relation to roids in boxing), but I guess that is the nature of the beast. You can bet your arse that fighters would be willing to do the same thing years ago to get that "advantage".

It's also one thing to dope, but another to be lazy. A lazy, steroid user still isn't gaining advantages he/she should be getting.
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