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Full Version: The tale of Meldrick Taylor vs. Julio Cesar Chavez
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BigG
Part 1:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pFQ2oJ3asaM

Part 2:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dylwo0CPKKw

Part 3:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dylwo0CPKKw



I love both guys but it just breaks my heart watching fuckin Steele take this fight away from Meldrick. They would've had a rematch had Taylor won and Chavez probably would've TKOed him but Steele shouldn't have stopped that fight.
BrutalBodyShots
The topic of this fight comes up once or twice a year and much like the DLH/Trinidad debate there is always a split down the middle of people that feel one way verses the other. Arguments can be made for either side.

Those that feel that Steele should NOT have stopped the fight need to understand a few things though. One, it doesn't matter how many seconds are left in a round or a fight. Referee's make decisions based on what is happening at an exact moment. Their rule books don't say "before you stop a fight check the clock to see how much time is left, and then decide if you should let it go." Second, it doesn't matter that Taylor was winning the fight. Again, referee's stop fights due to the moment. A fighter can sweep every minute of every round and if he gets hurt and the referee feels he is in danger can stop the fight.

If anyone wants to make the argument that Steele shouldn't have stopped the fight because Taylor at that moment WASN'T hurt badly enough to warrant the stoppage I think that's a fine argument that can be supported. But to say that it shouldn't have been stopped because Taylor "was only 2 seconds away from a win" doesn't hold any water in my book because that is not how a referee is trained to do his job.

Maxy
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 25 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]362322[/snapback]
The topic of this fight comes up once or twice a year and much like the DLH/Trinidad debate there is always a split down the middle of people that feel one way verses the other. Arguments can be made for either side.

Those that feel that Steele should NOT have stopped the fight need to understand a few things though. One, it doesn't matter how many seconds are left in a round or a fight. Referee's make decisions based on what is happening at an exact moment. Their rule books don't say "before you stop a fight check the clock to see how much time is left, and then decide if you should let it go." Second, it doesn't matter that Taylor was winning the fight. Again, referee's stop fights due to the moment. A fighter can sweep every minute of every round and if he gets hurt and the referee feels he is in danger can stop the fight.

If anyone wants to make the argument that Steele shouldn't have stopped the fight because Taylor at that moment WASN'T hurt badly enough to warrant the stoppage I think that's a fine argument that can be supported. But to say that it shouldn't have been stopped because Taylor "was only 2 seconds away from a win" doesn't hold any water in my book because that is not how a referee is trained to do his job.


Good points.

I was gutted when Steele stopped that fight. Meldrick was one of my favourite fighters back then so him being stopped 2 seconds from victory really added insult to injury.

However, Taylor didn't respond properly when asked if he was OK so Steele was in his rights to stop it. That fight absolutely ruined Taylor. Finished him.

Boxing really is a brutal sport.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Maxy @ Oct 25 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]362329[/snapback]
However, Taylor didn't respond properly when asked if he was OK so Steele was in his rights to stop it. That fight absolutely ruined Taylor. Finished him.


Exactly. I too agree with this argument.

Most everyone that has a problem with the Taylor/Chavez fight being stopped is letting their emotions get involved... which is understandable as many of us do when we're a great fan or watching a great fight such as this example.

I think the best way to get an inbaised view would be to show someone that has never seen the fight the last minute of the fight, but with the sound off and with something on the bottom right corner of your TV covering the round/time clock. See if an unbiased person that has never seen the fight that is unaware of the time/round and unaware of who was winning the fight at the time if they feel the fight should have been stopped. Basically this is the viewpoint that the referee is supposed to have, and that Steele maintains that he had when he stopped the fight.

The fact that Taylor wasn't responding to Steele was really what got the fight stopped, but also the fact that he had his arms on the ropes for support and that he was looking off to the side at Duva I believe didn't help his cause.

Big Slim Sweet
I don't think Taylor was hurt to the point that the fight should have been stopped. He was in trouble and he did look towards the corner instead of at the ref but he clearly had his legs underneath him - it wasn't like McCall-Lewis 1 for example, where Lennox was using the ref to stay upright. Taylor was a champion and he was winning the fight and no matter what round it was or how much time was left Steele should have given him another chance to continue. It was the first knockdown of the fight.

BUT... I also think the fact that there were TWO DAMN SECONDS left cannot be overlooked. I know technically yes, the ref's not supposed to let that factor into his decision, but referees are human beings not computers and in this case there was no way Steele wasn't aware of the time. Shit, the red light was blinking in the corner right in front of him, letting him know it was the final 10 seconds of the round. Taylor wouldn't have taken another single punch had it continued and Steele had to have known that.
Maxy
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 25 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]362335[/snapback]
I don't think Taylor was hurt to the point that the fight should have been stopped. He was in trouble and he did look towards the corner instead of at the ref but he clearly had his legs underneath him - it wasn't like McCall-Lewis 1 for example, where Lennox was using the ref to stay upright. Taylor was a champion and he was winning the fight and no matter what round it was or how much time was left Steele should have given him another chance to continue. It was the first knockdown of the fight.

BUT... I also think the fact that there were TWO DAMN SECONDS left cannot be overlooked. I know technically yes, the ref's not supposed to let that factor into his decision, but referees are human beings not computers and in this case there was no way Steele wasn't aware of the time. Shit, the red light was blinking in the corner right in front of him, letting him know it was the final 10 seconds of the round. Taylor wouldn't have taken another single punch had it continued and Steele had to have known that.


I understand what you're saying totally, but lets suppose Steele noticed the red light a few seconds after it had actually started blinking. He may have thought there were as many as 8 seconds left in the round. In 8 seconds Chavez could have landed a few more punches so Steele was left with no option but to stop it. Taylor had nothing left but yes, he would have lasted 2 more seconds. Absolutely. Did Steele know there were only 2 seconds left though?

Like the majority of people I wish Taylor had been allowed to continue, allowed to beat the great Chavez, but I have to accept the stoppage.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Maxy @ Oct 25 2007, 02:37 PM) [snapback]362338[/snapback]
I understand what you're saying totally, but lets suppose Steele noticed the red light a few seconds after it had actually started blinking. He may have thought there were as many as 8 seconds left in the round. In 8 seconds Chavez could have landed a few more punches so Steele was left with no option but to stop it. Taylor had nothing left but yes, he would have lasted 2 more seconds. Absolutely. Did Steele know there were only 2 seconds left though?

Like the majority of people I wish Taylor had been allowed to continue, allowed to beat the great Chavez, but I have to accept the stoppage.

I accept the stoppage to a degree as well. I mean, had it been a 15 round championship fight there's absolutely no question Meldrick gets stopped in the first minute of the 13th round. He was done BUT I just think the fight should have been allowed to continue at the point that Steele stopped it. Think of most knockdowns you see, generally a guy gets every opportunity after the first time he goes down to recover. Taylor was in better condition at that point than Evander Holyfield was when he got up in fights 1 and 3 against Bowe. But in both fights he was allowed to continue. In the first fight he turned it into one of the greatest rounds in boxing history. In the third fight he went right back down with the next shot Bowe threw. We'll never know what Taylor would have done in those fnal few seconds, and that's a shame because IMO we should have known. He should have been allowed to fight on.
WolfishPromistah
"He should have been allowed to fight on."

Well, maybe that's best left to blame him on...'cause it can be said he shoulda responded when asked to. [wink]

I don't know. Sounds like his mind wasn't on where it should have been (should have been on Steele), possibly, too, meaning he wasn't as clear-headed as he needed to be at the time.

I feel bad for 'im, and have for all these years -- arguably threw away the fight of his life for just ONE lil petty instance -- oh well. [shrugs]
DEP Nihilist
What the hell George, they did have a re-match...If I remember correctly Taylor did pretty well in the re-match, even though it took 4 years to get, against Chavez. I haven't watched the fight in a while but I remember him holding his own again (and throwing a few low blows) before getting stopped.


Interesting thing on Taylor, though it is on Wikipedia so I'm not sure if it is even true.

"Taylor lives in Philadelphia today, working as a personal trainer, fitness consultant and boxing instructor. A little known but nonetheless controversial fact about him is that he is a member of a radical Christian (some would say black supremacist) paramilitary religious group in Philadelphia called the Israelite Church of GOD in Jesus Christ. This church is one among many groups of Black Hebrew Israelites. There he is known as "Thirteen Shield General Manatazachya."
BrutalBodyShots
Taylor had his arms up in the ropes for suppport when Steele was asking him if he was ready to continue... I can't think of many refs that WOULD let a fighter continue when both of his arms are on the ropes for support.

mrchrissanchez
QUOTE(DEP Nihilist @ Oct 25 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]362360[/snapback]
What the hell George, they did have a re-match...If I remember correctly Taylor did pretty well in the re-match, even though it took 4 years to get, against Chavez. I haven't watched the fight in a while but I remember him holding his own again (and throwing a few low blows) before getting stopped.
Interesting thing on Taylor, though it is on Wikipedia so I'm not sure if it is even true.

"Taylor lives in Philadelphia today, working as a personal trainer, fitness consultant and boxing instructor. A little known but nonetheless controversial fact about him is that he is a member of a radical Christian (some would say black supremacist) paramilitary religious group in Philadelphia called the Israelite Church of GOD in Jesus Christ. This church is one among many groups of Black Hebrew Israelites. There he is known as "Thirteen Shield General Manatazachya."

Did not know that, wow. But Meldrick Taylor easily outboxed Chavez and he was on his way to win, basically if there were one more minute left in the round chavez would of pounded him to a stoppage or a second knockout. The stoppage was bullshit... Taylor was a world class champion- he deserved to finish the round because he was on his feet... Richard Steele is a Coward. It seems after that loss his game crumbled... poor Taylor
BigG
Yeah, I know they had a rematch....and I felt sad watching that as well. but if Taylor had won (if Steele let him finish the fight he would have won a SD) there probably would have been an immideate rematch and CHavez would have still stopped him the same as he did on their actual rematch.

And DEP, where is your WeBL gym? Support fighthype laugh.gif
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(mrchrissanchez @ Oct 25 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]362369[/snapback]
Taylor was a world class champion- he deserved to finish the round because he was on his feet... Richard Steele is a Coward.


So anyone that is on their feet deserves to finish the round they are in? Should Berbick have been allowed to continue against Tyson?

kidbazooka1
I can see how some may say the stoppage was injustice but I've watched that fight probably more than 50 times and every time I feel Steel made the right call. Steel did not know there was 2 seconds left for all he knew there could have been another 50 sec. left chavez could have ran over and landed another left hook right cross and injure Taylor severly.

Taylor was an awesome fighter IMO he had the fastest hands in boxing history(RJ and SRR included) they moved like a blur. I remember reading right before the Chavez fight The Ring Magazine calling Taylor the next leonard. He had lots of talent and could have gone on to accomplish more if not for the Chavez fight.
Tha Docta
QUOTE(kidbazooka1 @ Oct 26 2007, 01:01 PM) [snapback]362430[/snapback]
I can see how some may say the stoppage was injustice but I've watched that fight probably more than 50 times and every time I feel Steel made the right call. Steel did not know there was 2 seconds left for all he knew there could have been another 50 sec. left chavez could have ran over and landed another left hook right cross and injure Taylor severly.

Taylor was an awesome fighter IMO he had the fastest hands in boxing history(RJ and SRR included) they moved like a blur. I remember reading right before the Chavez fight The Ring Magazine calling Taylor the next leonard. He had lots of talent and could have gone on to accomplish more if not for the Chavez fight.



richard steele is an asshole that has ruined one too many fights for my liking. here we have a terrific fight and everyones talking about richard steele instead of the fighters. referees are supposed to know if a fighter can continue or not. meldrick was not flopping around like berbick, and steele should have known that taylor would have had no problem finishing the last few seconds of the round.

that fight ruined taylor, no debating that, but all richard steele did in that fight is take away the mans best accomplishment in his life by not knowing what was going on in the ring that night. richard steele has always had his head lodged up his ass and i cringe everytime i see him refereeing a fight.
WolfishPromistah
Poor Richard. I think that people still jeer him in exhibition matches, provided he's the ref, and much because of what happened in this fight.
gods son
i hated steele after this fight...then realised his intentions..so u know..its boxing!!!

BrutalBodyShots
I think many of you have far too many emotions invested in Taylor as far as this fight goes and the stoppage.

Yes the right thing to have happened on that night would have been for Taylor to get the W in a fight that he won for the majority of 35 minutes and 58 seconds of. The bottom line however is that he did not respond properly to the referee not once but twice, had both of his arms up on the ropes for support and looked away from the referee toward his corner when asked if he was alright. Can you really blame a ref for not stopping considering those factors, no emotions or biased feelings involved?
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 27 2007, 01:16 AM) [snapback]362487[/snapback]
I think many of you have far too many emotions invested in Taylor as far as this fight goes and the stoppage.

Yes the right thing to have happened on that night would have been for Taylor to get the W in a fight that he won for the majority of 35 minutes and 58 seconds of. The bottom line however is that he did not respond properly to the referee not once but twice, had both of his arms up on the ropes for support and looked away from the referee toward his corner when asked if he was alright. Can you really blame a ref for not stopping considering those factors, no emotions or biased feelings involved?

I think Steele should have demanded Taylor's attention before waiving it off, he should have realized Meldrick was looking at his corner because Duva was screaming instructions to him. My biased feelings are that Steele blew it, but realistically it was a 50-50 call.
BigG
Yeah, the crowd was wild....Duva was screaming, Taylor's instinct as a warrior/champion/fighter was just to get up and fight. And when Taylor saw Steele waving it off, his facial expression changed right away and started saying something like "what are you doing".......
thisneverworks
Does anybody have any footage of Meldrick Taylor they can post somewhere? I would love to see some highlights of him fighting. I vaguely remember watching him but do remember him being fast as hell and since he was from Philly, I had to like him.
BigG
There are highlights of Meldrick in part 1 of the legendary night videos....
DEP Nihilist
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Oct 27 2007, 08:48 PM) [snapback]362563[/snapback]
Yeah, the crowd was wild....Duva was screaming, Taylor's instinct as a warrior/champion/fighter was just to get up and fight. And when Taylor saw Steele waving it off, his facial expression changed right away and started saying something like "what are you doing".......


Don't forget about the flashing red light indicating the round was about to end behind Taylor.
kidbazooka1
QUOTE(DEP Nihilist @ Oct 28 2007, 01:26 AM) [snapback]362587[/snapback]
Don't forget about the flashing red light indicating the round was about to end behind Taylor.


Yes but Steel had 10 seconds to make sure Taylor was ok and ready to go his job was to pay attention to the fighter not the red light.

I think one of Taylors best performances was agianst Mcgirt.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 27 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]362487[/snapback]
The bottom line however is that he did not respond properly to the referee not once but twice, had both of his arms up on the ropes for support and looked away from the referee toward his corner when asked if he was alright. Can you really blame a ref for not stopping considering those factors, no emotions or biased feelings involved?

Technically these things are true, but I think you're overstating them to a degree. Taylor may have been holding the ropes for support (don't remember without watching it again), but it was more a case of using them to steady himself as opposed to hanging on in order to prevent from going down (a la Holyfield-Cooper). Meldrick was in nowhere near the condition that Berbick was, and while he did look away from the ref he was clearly focusing on something - in this case his corner and that overreactionary numbskull Lou Duva. His eyes weren't just totally glazed over and unable to focus.

But all that aside, I believe in this situation Steele should have shown some emotion or bias. Not towards Taylor or against Chavez per se, but he had to have been aware of the circumstances. I don't believe it should have been a blind, by-the-book call. There's nothing wrong with allowing the particular circumstances of a situation to factor into your interpretation of a rule. I suppose you could say I'm letting my own biases factor into that opinion and you're probably right, but I stand by it nonetheless.
QUOTE(kidbazooka1 @ Oct 28 2007, 01:13 AM) [snapback]362589[/snapback]
Yes but Steel had 10 seconds to make sure Taylor was ok and ready to go his job was to pay attention to the fighter not the red light.

I think one of Taylors best performances was agianst Mcgirt.

Again, same as before. Regardless of what he was supposed to do, there's no way he didn't know the light was flashing.

I think I hold Lou Duva as much to blame for it all as Steele. Why the fuck was he leaping into the ring hollering up a storm before the fight was over anyway?

Not to mention he told Meldrick between the 11th and 12th rounds to go out there and fight his heart out, even though he swears up and down he told him to make like Ali in there.

And yes, Taylor was awesome against McGirt.
Tha Docta
richard steele is one of the most inept referees i have ever seen. i truly believe that richard steele always wanted to be a big star in boxing. which is why he started his own promotional company.

he also ruined the tyson vs ruddock fight if i remember correctly. i know hes ruined other fights but my brain is not working right today.

BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 29 2007, 03:04 PM) [snapback]362787[/snapback]
...I believe in this situation Steele should have shown some emotion or bias....


That's what it all comes down to. If you feel that way I understand the rest of your post. My take on it however is that a referee isn't permitted to feel that way or at least let any emotion or bias interfere with the way calls are made.
DEP Nihilist
QUOTE
I think I hold Lou Duva as much to blame for it all as Steele. Why the fuck was he leaping into the ring hollering up a storm before the fight was over anyway?[


Agreed, Duva is an idiot.

Best Duva moment had to be when he was getting carried out of Bowe-Golota I and the stretcher was tipping over.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 29 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]362810[/snapback]
That's what it all comes down to. If you feel that way I understand the rest of your post. My take on it however is that a referee isn't permitted to feel that way or at least let any emotion or bias interfere with the way calls are made.

Your take is probably the technically correct one. I just feel like, if it were me in that situation, there's no way in the heat of the moment I wouldn't have allowed the circumstances to weigh in. And when I think of it that way, I start to think that if Richard Steele was indeed aware of the circumstances, then in not choosing to show bias and give Meldrick the opportunity he in fact chose to show bias the other way, and err on the side of Chavez. And when I think about that I think about how Chavez was the Don King fighter and Steele had worked for King before himself... Ah but that's a whole other can of worms.

Certainly Steele's decision had nothing to do with the condition Taylor's in today. It just makes the whole thing that much more poignant.

QUOTE(DEP Nihilist @ Oct 29 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]362824[/snapback]
Agreed, Duva is an idiot.

Best Duva moment had to be when he was getting carried out of Bowe-Golota I and the stretcher was tipping over.

Yes that was pretty funny. Did Lampley say live on the air, "Oh my God, Lou's dead!" or was that on LN when he was recalling the melee?
DEP Nihilist
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Oct 29 2007, 11:19 PM) [snapback]362831[/snapback]
Your take is probably the technically correct one. I just feel like, if it were me in that situation, there's no way in the heat of the moment I wouldn't have allowed the circumstances to weigh in. And when I think of it that way, I start to think that if Richard Steele was indeed aware of the circumstances, then in not choosing to show bias and give Meldrick the opportunity he in fact chose to show bias the other way, and err on the side of Chavez. And when I think about that I think about how Chavez was the Don King fighter and Steele had worked for King before himself... Ah but that's a whole other can of worms.

Certainly Steele's decision had nothing to do with the condition Taylor's in today. It just makes the whole thing that much more poignant.
Yes that was pretty funny. Did Lampley say live on the air, "Oh my God, Lou's dead!" or was that on LN when he was recalling the melee?



It was in LN.
kidbazooka1
All I know is Taylor was a bad muthaf*cker he had it all blinding speed, beautiful technique and decent power. I think his bggest weakness might have been his heart. I honestly feel had it not been for the beating he took in the Chavez fight he could have very well gone on to accomplish more in the sport.
BigG
Exactly. He also should have stayed away from Terry Norris.

Taylor could have been an all time great...He definitely had the talent.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Oct 30 2007, 12:42 PM) [snapback]362859[/snapback]
Exactly. He also should have stayed away from Terry Norris.

I have a friend who to this day still despises Terry Norris for what he did to Taylor.
BigG
Yup...that would be hard to watch for any Taylor fan. Round 4 was brutal...but the people booed the stoppage and wanted Taylor to go on.
Tha Docta
taylor never had a chance to win that fight. the only reason i like terry norris is because he gave sugar ray a good ass kicking as well. i was quite tired of sugars comeback attempts.
DEP Nihilist
Taylor had some fruity trunks for that fight, but he sure did get his ass beat. The Leonard-Norris fight was great, as was Norris-Waters.
BigG
Norris-Watters round 2 WAS classic!

I think it's on youtube....that is one of the great rounds in boxing history IMO.
BrutalBodyShots
When I think of Norris all I picture is him getting leveled by Jackson. Damn that was brutal.

DEP Nihilist
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 30 2007, 07:18 PM) [snapback]362908[/snapback]
When I think of Norris all I picture is him getting leveled by Jackson. Damn that was brutal.


How about Jackson-Drayton? Pointing him down to the canvas.
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