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Full Version: Forrest wants to move up and challenge Pavlik
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Southeastpaw
I hope this doesn't happen. This would then start to fall into the realm in which Taylor was residing. Although I would give Pavlik the benefit of the doubt here and predict him to stop Forrest in dominating fashion. But I still do not want to see this fight take place. Seems to be the trend. Most of the challenges in the past 3 years to the MW division have come from 154. If Vernon successfully defends in his next fight and is serious about the move up, I hope that Pavlik scoffs at Vernon's ego and takes on some of the more meaningful guys @ 160. Unless, of course, Vernon becomes a #1 contender to the title.
JD
Translation: "Forrest wants an asswhooping".
Tha Docta
vernon knows his time is running out on a decent payday. but im not sure he wants to go out like this. pavlik is too much man for him to deal with. but of course vernon would take his ass kicking and then tell everyone how he could barely throw punches because his shoulders hurt so bad.
The Original MrFactor
Vernon's got heart... The trouble with him moving to MW would be that he's leaving hall of the physical advantages that he had at lower weight behind. At MW he'd just be "one of the boys." "One of the boys" apparently aint enuff to beat Pavlik. Forrest's power was slightly above average at welter. At mw, his power will probably be just average. Thats not gonna be enuff to keep Pav back. Pav will KO Forrest, similarly to the way he KO'd Taylor. Forrest is just a more polished version of Taylor. Jab, 1-2... He may nopt hit as hard at MW, though... This fight ends earlier than the Taylor fight...
BrutalBodyShots
I would take Pavlik's right hand at 160 over Mayorga's right hand at 147, so all other things considered I say Forrest gets put to sleep. Of course, all other things are NOT equal... that is Pavlik's skills are superior to Mayorga's, his workrate and not to mention that Forrest was in his prime for the Mayorga fight where he is past prime now, just to name a few things.
caneman
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 30 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]362912[/snapback]
I would take Pavlik's right hand at 160 over Mayorga's right hand at 147, so all other things considered I say Forrest gets put to sleep. Of course, all other things are NOT equal... that is Pavlik's skills are superior to Mayorga's, his workrate and not to mention that Forrest was in his prime for the Mayorga fight where he is past prime now, just to name a few things.



wow very good point actually...with pavlik having better over all skills! i mean i guess forrest has a chance based on his last fight i think pavlik's jab is as good, not as fast but when the big rthand comes & that left is too low...someone is going sleep! "the ghost" inside of 5 IMO! VF fought mayo's fight & from what i have been seeing pavlik make you his fight...that with the above = KTFO! drinks.gif
PR316
Forrest has got heart. But I wouldn't make this move. At least not yet. Forrest should first try his luck at getting a possible showdown with either Oscar De La Hoya or the Cotto/Mosley winner. Then if he's not succesfull at luring either of those to fight him, then go ahead and challenge Pavlik and see if you can outbox him to do what Taylor failed to do.
Fitz
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 31 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]362912[/snapback]
I would take Pavlik's right hand at 160 over Mayorga's right hand at 147, so all other things considered I say Forrest gets put to sleep. Of course, all other things are NOT equal... that is Pavlik's skills are superior to Mayorga's, his workrate and not to mention that Forrest was in his prime for the Mayorga fight where he is past prime now, just to name a few things.


I see what you're trying to say and in no way am I saying that Vernon beats Pavlik. But the comparisons you're making with Pavlik and Mayorga and using them against Forrest I disagree with.
Personally I don't think it's relevant that Pavlik is more skilled than Mayorga. I thought Forrest lost to Mayorga because of how unorthodox he was, after all Mosley is light years ahead of Pavlik as well in terms of skill. I think it just came down to Mayorga being unorthodox, so to me it doesn't matter that Pavlik is superior to Mayorga in terms of skill.
I agree with the rest of what you say, I will pick Pavlik just because he is bigger, stronger and Forrest would be 2 divisions higher to where his prime was and he is definitely past it as well IMO.
Col Reb
I would rather have Forrest fight Winky first at 160.
BigG
Winky would whoop Forrest
singletrack
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Oct 31 2007, 12:39 AM) [snapback]362928[/snapback]
Winky would whoop Forrest


I'm interested to see how Winky performs in his next fight. He looked sluggish in the BHop fight. Of course, Bernard has a knack for making people look bad.
salvador
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 30 2007, 08:24 PM) [snapback]362912[/snapback]
I would take Pavlik's right hand at 160 over Mayorga's right hand at 147, so all other things considered I say Forrest gets put to sleep. Of course, all other things are NOT equal... that is Pavlik's skills are superior to Mayorga's, his workrate and not to mention that Forrest was in his prime for the Mayorga fight where he is past prime now, just to name a few things.


You always make very rational points, and I agree with you that it's all about Pavlik's right hand, but I don't see Mayorga as a fair measuring stick.

Forrest, who's faster and more skilled than Pavlik, beat Mosley twice. At the time, Forrest was near the top of every p4p list. And I don't think Pavlik's ever faced a boxer with Vernon's skills. And it's not like Forrest would ever consider trading with Pavlik.

I've been very skeptical of Forrest since his shoulder surgery, as I think that most shoulder injuries are career enders. That said, Forrest looked great against Baldomir and his confidence right now has to be as high as it's ever been.

Forrest clearly wants one last paycheck, but more than that, I think he seriously believes he can outbox Pavlik. I love that he's calling Pavlik out and I'd be interested in seeing this fight. I doubt this fight would happen unless Forrest has another great performance. That said, I'd bet that Pavlik's people would just as soon have a tune up fight after JT (and presumeably before Winky, Calzaghe, and Hopkins) and maybe Vernon fits the bill. And if Vernon did outbox Pavlik, he'd be right in the mix for a DLH fight.

The obvious fight for him right now is Ouma or maybe even Spinks.
Southeastpaw
Definitely not a good move for Forrest. I would tune in, but it is not a very interesting match-up.

Now what I would LOVE to see is Forrest drop back to 147, if he can and try and make a fight with Paul Williams. Now that would be an interesting match-up. I would pick Paul, but it would be much more interesting than him taking on Pavlik.

BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Fitz @ Oct 30 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]362924[/snapback]
I see what you're trying to say and in no way am I saying that Vernon beats Pavlik. But the comparisons you're making with Pavlik and Mayorga and using them against Forrest I disagree with.
Personally I don't think it's relevant that Pavlik is more skilled than Mayorga. I thought Forrest lost to Mayorga because of how unorthodox he was, after all Mosley is light years ahead of Pavlik as well in terms of skill. I think it just came down to Mayorga being unorthodox, so to me it doesn't matter that Pavlik is superior to Mayorga in terms of skill.
I agree with the rest of what you say, I will pick Pavlik just because he is bigger, stronger and Forrest would be 2 divisions higher to where his prime was and he is definitely past it as well IMO.


Yes Mayorga was unorthodox and of course that posed a problem to Forrest, but take 2 other solid guys in DLH and Trinidad that had absolutely NO problem with Mayorga. A prime Forrest that faced Mayorga and beat Mosley twice IMO is of about the same level as a past prime Trinidad/DLH in terms of ability and neither of them had a problem with Mayorga's unorthodox style. If Forrest couldn't tame an awkward guy with power like Mayorga with his jab and a little footwork I don't see him being able to keep Pavlik off of him either.
Fitz
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 1 2007, 08:42 AM) [snapback]362984[/snapback]
Yes Mayorga was unorthodox and of course that posed a problem to Forrest, but take 2 other solid guys in DLH and Trinidad that had absolutely NO problem with Mayorga. A prime Forrest that faced Mayorga and beat Mosley twice IMO is of about the same level as a past prime Trinidad/DLH in terms of ability and neither of them had a problem with Mayorga's unorthodox style. If Forrest couldn't tame an awkward guy with power like Mayorga with his jab and a little footwork I don't see him being able to keep Pavlik off of him either.


Styles make fights, the first fight he was caught unprepared and couldn't deal with an unorthodox fight like Mayorga. Early in the 2nd fight I felt he was still too cautious and gave away rounds, one he adjusted he figured Mayorga out and started to dominate, but all this happened too late. Prime Forrest no doubt is better than Pavlik, but Pavlik should beat him comfortably at this stage. Forrest would be 2 divisions out of his prime weight, has had shoulder injuries and like you mentioned his right hand. He is basically just too big and strong for Forrest.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but like salvador I don't think using Mayorga was a fair measuring stick. I thought it was just a style thing.
Method
QUOTE
Although I would give Pavlik the benefit of the doubt here


Benefit of WHAT doubt? No doubt about it, Forrest gets whipped from pillar to post. KTFO in brutal fashion.

...and Mayorga has nothing to do with it.
BrutalBodyShots
I'm not saying I'm using Mayorga as a "measuring stick" for a potential fight between Pavlik and Forrest... just pointing out that if a single unorthodox Mayorga bomb at 147 was able to stop Forrest I'm fairly certain that a straight Pavlik right at some point at 160 would catch him and put him out. Of course I'm aware that styles make fights and that Pavlik and Mayorga are nothing alike.

Fitz
Yep, I too think the same thing. Pavlik is just too big and strong. Forrest is past his best, no doubt that Pavlik would most likely finish him with that right.
BrutalBodyShots
Forrest would probably succeed in keeping Pavlik at bay with his jab and extend the fight 3 or 4 rounds, but by round 5 or so I think Pavlik would find the mark.

Pavlik KO5/6 Forrest.

Fitz
I'm trying to think what would be the most interesting fight I want to see Pavlik in, outside of a Taylor rematch. There really isn't much at middle anymore.
Southeastpaw
Let's not forget that Forrest was unable to hurt Mayorga with his power @ 147, yet Mayorga was hurt by Tito and DLH @ a higher weight. It would be terrible for Forrest to try and fight Pav. Pavlik has a good enough chin for the hitters @ 160 let alone Forrest's punches. Forrest would not be able to handle Pavlik's power or workrate. It is suicide. But then again, this is boxing. I've seen some strange outcomes in my day. This is why I said I would give Pav the benefit of the doubt. Nothing is certain in this sport. Just possible outcomes which are the closest thing to certainty, which this would be one of those bouts.
BigG
Pavlik would stop Forres in about 4-5 rounds. Forrest should stick around at 154. I'd love to see him fight Ouma.
Fitz
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Nov 1 2007, 05:04 PM) [snapback]363022[/snapback]
Let's not forget that Forrest was unable to hurt Mayorga with his power @ 147, yet Mayorga was hurt by Tito and DLH @ a higher weight. It would be terrible for Forrest to try and fight Pav. Pavlik has a good enough chin for the hitters @ 160 let alone Forrest's punches. Forrest would not be able to handle Pavlik's power or workrate. It is suicide. But then again, this is boxing. I've seen some strange outcomes in my day. This is why I said I would give Pav the benefit of the doubt. Nothing is certain in this sport. Just possible outcomes which are the closest thing to certainty, which this would be one of those bouts.


Let's not forget also that Forrest hurt Mosley big time and what about DLH? Taylor could barely put a dent on Spinks and Ouma yet had Pavlik punch drunk. All it takes is a good shot. These equations don't always work. Corley hurt Mayweather and what about DLH?
Southeastpaw
Forrest is not going to hurt Pavlik. I wouldn't compare Forrest's power to Jermaine's. Who has been able to hurt Ouma. And Spinks in slick. He never really got hit clean and flush. He beat the man Forrest could not. Pavlik's power, workrate, and chin will be entirely too much Forrest. Forrest's size is what had Mosley. Mosley has trouble with those rangy guys. Did Forrest have Mosley down? It has been a while since I have seen those fights with Forrest and Mosley, but other than when Mosley was cut, I don't remember when he was really hurt by Forrest. DLH never really brought his power to MW and he was able to knock a prime Quartey down @ 147. Forrest could not hurt Quartey in a fight that I thought Ike clearly won. There is nothing that tells me that Forrest is going to have enough pop to hurt Pavlik # 160. Nor is he going to have a size advantage as he did over Mosley.
Fitz
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Nov 2 2007, 03:46 AM) [snapback]363054[/snapback]
Forrest is not going to hurt Pavlik. I wouldn't compare Forrest's power to Jermaine's. Who has been able to hurt Ouma. And Spinks in slick. He never really got hit clean and flush. He beat the man Forrest could not. Pavlik's power, workrate, and chin will be entirely too much Forrest. Forrest's size is what had Mosley. Mosley has trouble with those rangy guys. Did Forrest have Mosley down? It has been a while since I have seen those fights with Forrest and Mosley, but other than when Mosley was cut, I don't remember when he was really hurt by Forrest. DLH never really brought his power to MW and he was able to knock a prime Quartey down @ 147. Forrest could not hurt Quartey in a fight that I thought Ike clearly won. There is nothing that tells me that Forrest is going to have enough pop to hurt Pavlik # 160. Nor is he going to have a size advantage as he did over Mosley.


Forrest had Mosley nearly out and was then put down. Mosley was so fucked it was impressive he made it out of that 2nd round and finished the fight on his feet. He wasn't just hurt, he was hurt big time. Probably more hurt than Pavlik was against Taylor.
Chances are Forrest probably won't hurt Pavlik, but just the boxing equation you used isn't necessarily true. You were saying how Forrest can't hurt Mayorga but DLH could. But then Forrest had Mosley nearly out and DLH couldn't hurt him big. Then Corley had buzzed Mayweather and DLH couldn't. I was just trying to make a point that using equations don't always come to the correct answer when it comes to boxing. You also provided another example with Forrest not hurting Quartey but DLH did. Nothing really works. It's how cleanly you hit someone, doesn't matter whether a guy with more power couldn't hurt someone, it doesn't always mean that a guy who doesn't hit quite as hard can't hurt you. McCline-Peter is another one.
Southeastpaw
Understood. But I still believe that it was the cut in the second that really affected Mosley allowing Vernon to pummel him on the ropes. I will have to rewatch that 2nd round on youtube. Pavlik has been hit flush by some big hitters and has been alright. I don't think that Forrest's power is going to be much of a factor. Now, if he hits Pavlik on the temple, then maybe. That is the punch that rocked Cotto and PBF coming from Corley. A well placed shot to the temple from a light hitter could rock many a sturdy chinned fighter. But as far as taking it on the chin, Pavlik doesn't have much to worry about from Forrest in that aspect as I consider Pavlik to have a much better beard that Mayorga. That is all I am trying to say. I was using that as a measuring stick. Stats.
Method
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Oct 31 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]363002[/snapback]
I'm not saying I'm using Mayorga as a "measuring stick" for a potential fight between Pavlik and Forrest... just pointing out that if a single unorthodox Mayorga bomb at 147 was able to stop Forrest I'm fairly certain that a straight Pavlik right at some point at 160 would catch him and put him out. Of course I'm aware that styles make fights and that Pavlik and Mayorga are nothing alike.


Oh I know Brutal. To be honest, I didn't really read any posts on here....I just saw that 'benefit of the doubt comment', then skimmed through the thread real quick and saw Mayorga's name laced throughout. I'm just saying, Mayorga or no Mayorga, I think Pavlik would K Forest TFO. I could be wrong. Strong convictions in the past have led me to question my judgement afterwards (ahem, Taylor vs Wright), but I just don't see any way Forrest gives Pavlik any problems. Oh, and I think Vern should stay away from Mayorga too. Styles.

I wouldn't mind Mayorga vs Floyd though. Again. Styles. However, Forrest vs Pavlik is SIZE and styles.
BrutalBodyShots
I'm getting pretty tired in general of fighters in whatever division calling out "the man" in the division above... especially when they aren't even the top fighter in their current division.

Forrest has had 2 fights in 2 years... one a decision over a former champion at welter moving up and a fight that many believe Forrest lost. He has no right to be calling out the best fighter in the world at 160.

Southeastpaw
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 2 2007, 12:25 PM) [snapback]363122[/snapback]
I'm getting pretty tired in general of fighters in whatever division calling out "the man" in the division above... especially when they aren't even the top fighter in their current division.

Forrest has had 2 fights in 2 years... one a decision over a former champion at welter moving up and a fight that many believe Forrest lost. He has no right to be calling out the best fighter in the world at 160.

Exactly! That's what I meant by stating I would hope Pav scoffs at Vernon's ego. Who does this guy think he is? This joker is riding those Mosley wins for all they are worth.
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