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The Original MrFactor
Prime vs Prime. I was thinking about this earlier today. I dont ever remember anyon posting a thread about it. there have always been the comparisons as to who's the better fighter. I wondered what other thought if they were to match up H2H prime vs prime.

I may be going out on a limb here when I say Hopkins takes this. I think Hagler's height and reach would put him at significant disadvantages to a guy who may be on eth the best defensive fighters at MW. I think Hagler(whose boxing ability was underrated), come out with reckless abandon trying to punish Hopkins body. Hopkins realizes that he cant win MArvin Hagler's fight. I think Hopkins would keep Hagler on the outside as often as possible. I think he pulls out a SD against Hagler in the long run.

Hearns had significant height, reach and speed advantages on Hagler. he just negated all of thos things when he decided to fight Marvin's fight. Stupidest mistake in the world. Hopkins would not make that mistake. Also at 160, Hopkins looks alot bigger than Hearns. I think Hagler would have been in for a tough fight. What do some of you guys think??
xxxxxx
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 18 2007, 09:57 PM) [snapback]365877[/snapback]
Prime vs Prime. I was thinking about this earlier today. I dont ever remember anyon posting a thread about it. there have always been the comparisons as to who's the better fighter. I wondered what other thought if they were to match up H2H prime vs prime.

I may be going out on a limb here when I say Hopkins takes this. I think Hagler's height and reach would put him at significant disadvantages to a guy who may be on eth the best defensive fighters at MW. I think Hagler(whose boxing ability was underrated), come out with reckless abandon trying to punish Hopkins body. Hopkins realizes that he cant win MArvin Hagler's fight. I think Hopkins would keep Hagler on the outside as often as possible. I think he pulls out a SD against Hagler in the long run.

Hearns had significant height, reach and speed advantages on Hagler. he just negated all of thos things when he decided to fight Marvin's fight. Stupidest mistake in the world. Hopkins would not make that mistake. Also at 160, Hopkins looks alot bigger than Hearns. I think Hagler would have been in for a tough fight. What do some of you guys think??



Good thread here.I'm a fan of both fighters so it's tough to pick a winner.I think the amount of rounds could play a factor.Neither man has ever been stopped so I think it's safe to say it goes the distance.In a 15 rd fight I would favor Hopkins because he always seems to come on strong midway through a fight.Not saying Hagler doesn't either, but I think Hop uses his Length in this one.In a 12 rd fight I believe Hagler woulda won a close dec based on activity and aggression.Either way the fight would be close and an instant classic in my opinion.
Maxy
I really honestly couldn't pick a winner here. For me, Haglers a better, greater fighter than Hopkins, but maybe thats because I just preferred his style over Hopkins.

Its definitely going the distance (whether 12 or 15 rounds) and if they boxed 10 times I'd have to go with 5 wins each.
Nobudius
QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Nov 19 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]365979[/snapback]
Good thread here.I'm a fan of both fighters so it's tough to pick a winner.I think the amount of rounds could play a factor.Neither man has ever been stopped so I think it's safe to say it goes the distance.In a 15 rd fight I would favor Hopkins because he always seems to come on strong midway through a fight.Not saying Hagler doesn't either, but I think Hop uses his Length in this one.In a 12 rd fight I believe Hagler woulda won a close dec based on activity and aggression.Either way the fight would be close and an instant classic in my opinion.


Not saying you are right or wrong...but it's odd you give an edge to a guy (X) that has NEVER fought 15 rounds..... the 15 round edge.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Maxy @ Nov 19 2007, 04:52 PM) [snapback]365986[/snapback]
I really honestly couldn't pick a winner here. For me, Haglers a better, greater fighter than Hopkins, but maybe thats because I just preferred his style over Hopkins.

Its definitely going the distance (whether 12 or 15 rounds) and if they boxed 10 times I'd have to go with 5 wins each.



I fully agree with that sentiment. This is a close to a even fantasy fight I have ever seen.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Nov 19 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]366080[/snapback]
I fully agree with that sentiment. This is a close to a even fantasy fight I have ever seen.



What in your eyes makes hagler the better fighter?? I know you mentioned you prefer his style as opposed to Hopkins, but that doesnt necessarily make Hagler the better fighter.

I'm not accusing anyone of this, but i do notice this alot. When we talk about greats of the past, we are stuck in a, sort of, Paul Bunyon, legacy.When we talk about Ray Robinson, we talk like none of the guys of today could have beaten him. Its like saying Joe DiMaggio would have dominated todays MLB. I dont think so. DiMaggio, would have been a slightly above average player at best. Barry Bonds would have dominated in the 40's and 50's.

I think things have een changed since the 1980's. I think most fighters today are better trained, better tuned athletes. In my eyes, Kelly Pavlik would give hagler work. 1st due to his size and the fact that KP can crack. Would he have beaten hagler? Possibly. Definately has a punchers chance... And i'm not saying that KP is an alltime great. He's just THE GUY right now...
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 20 2007, 02:09 AM) [snapback]366111[/snapback]
What in your eyes makes hagler the better fighter?? I know you mentioned you prefer his style as opposed to Hopkins, but that doesnt necessarily make Hagler the better fighter.

I'm not accusing anyone of this, but i do notice this alot. When we talk about greats of the past, we are stuck in a, sort of, Paul Bunyon, legacy.When we talk about Ray Robinson, we talk like none of the guys of today could have beaten him. Its like saying Joe DiMaggio would have dominated todays MLB. I dont think so. DiMaggio, would have been a slightly above average player at best. Barry Bonds would have dominated in the 40's and 50's.


Hagler fought & beat the better fighters IMO. Weather he is a better fighter is up for debate but it would be a close fight as both guys are smart & crafty.

When I think of SRR vs the guys of today he would put a whuppin on them so bad it would be nothing short of murder. One thing that the old timers have in massive quantities is EXPERIENCE FIGHTING. Fighting long fights, fighting tough fights, fighting the top contender not who will sell the most PPV, fighting 15 or 20 rounds, fighting frequently. Piss weak chumps like Taylor get gassed after 4-5 rounds please cry me a river.

A true ATG would have been great in any era IMO.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Nov 19 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]366117[/snapback]
Hagler fought & beat the better fighters IMO. Weather he is a better fighter is up for debate but it would be a close fight as both guys are smart & crafty.

When I think of SRR vs the guys of today he would put a whuppin on them so bad it would be nothing short of murder. One thing that the old timers have in massive quantities is EXPERIENCE FIGHTING. Fighting long fights, fighting tough fights, fighting the top contender not who will sell the most PPV, fighting 15 or 20 rounds, fighting frequently. Piss weak chumps like Taylor get gassed after 4-5 rounds please cry me a river.

A true ATG would have been great in any era IMO.



Great point!! The guys from the 30's, 40's and 50's all fought, damn near monthly. I guess the gate was the PPV of the day. I think SRR beats many of the pros today. I think he beats DLH, Mayweather, Mosley and Trinidad in their primes. I think Winky Wright and Mike mcCallum give him major problems. I think he beats james Toney at 160 and loses by decision to RJJ. I think he decisions Hopkins and flat out loses by KO to Hagler(this may raise some eyebrows). I think he loses to Leonard by SD. I think SRR KO's hearns late. He and Calzaghe draw at 168.

I dont think its possible to be an ATG in any era simply because the guys of today have the guys of yesterday's experince to build on. Its because of SRR that we have a SRL and SSM. Kinda like the LeBron, Kobe and Jordan thing. Would Kobe and LeBron be as great if they didnt see the MJ era??

ray Robinson, like MJ in his sport, was the posterchild for the sport for years. He transcended Boxing. He was a 40'/50's rock star. In that regard, he may have been the greatest Fighter in the world, save for Ali. But people confuse greatest with best. I think he was a very good fighter, but not the best. Hopkins and Hagler didnt chase PPV's for much of their career. In Hagler's case, he did fight in 15rounders. He fought some grueling fights at a fast all out pace. I know its sounds hipocritical to say that Hagler would beat SRR and lose to Hopkins. While at the same time saying that Hopkins Would lose to SRR but beat Hagler. Just the way I feel.
STEVENSKI
Horses for courses really. Personally I wonder how they would handle a really good pressure fighter like LaMotta who had endless stamina & a granite chin. That would be interesting to say the least.
Fuse
Not really sure what to say here. I followed Hagler in the late '70s through the end of his career. A fight with Hopkins would've been a great fight, but I think that Hopkins' output and ability would diminish as the fight went on due to Hagler's endurance and attack to the body. Hagler wasn't a tall fighter, but he had unusually long arms for his height, superior training, arguably the greatest chin ever at 160, and his ability to look as fresh finishing the 15th round as he did starting the 1st. He could box with the best boxers and could slug with the best sluggers and no one could put a dent in him. He was a southpaw (which would give Hop fits) and could switch and fight conventional in spurts. He also fought much better competition (Watts, Briscoe, Hearns, Roldan, Duran, Leonard, etc) than Hopkins did. I think the only advantage Hop would have here would be defense, but that wouldn't be enough to win the fight.

I'm not going to go back and reread this thread to see who wrote it, but there's NO WAY IN HELL a guy like Kelly Pavlik beats Hagler or even makes it a midly close fight! Hagler probably stops him during the mid rounds. All Pavlik really has going for him is his power. He's not anywhere near the boxer or slugger that Hagler was. If Hagler had to, he'd stand toe to toe with Pavlik and end the fight that round. A "puncher's chance" won't win a fight against Hagler. If Hagler could walk through what he had to against guys like Briscoe, Roldan, Mugabi, and Hearns, there really isn't anything that Pavlik could offer that could save himself from getting stopped somewhere near the 6th round.
Nobudius
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 19 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]366127[/snapback]
In Hagler's case, he did fight in 15rounders.


Listen.... everybody has opinions, but are you SURE Hagler never fought in 15 R fights?

Your view on SRR is...... interesting.
xxxxxx
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 19 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]366027[/snapback]
Not saying you are right or wrong...but it's odd you give an edge to a guy (X) that has NEVER fought 15 rounds..... the 15 round edge.



I find it odd that you question my opinion on a Fantasy Fight because of the rounds that a fighter hasn't fought, but don't post your opinion on the fight.
Fuse
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]366198[/snapback]
Listen.... everybody has opinions, but are you SURE Hagler never fought in 15 R fights?

Your view on SRR is...... interesting.

Wow, I wasn't even able to make it that far into that guys post before moving on. Hagler didn't fight in 15 rounders? This guy REALLY doesn't belong in this discussion!

I think his view on anything older than 5 years is "interesting". This must be the same guy who thought that Pavlik would be a good fight for Hagler.
Nobudius
QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Nov 20 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]366200[/snapback]
I find it odd that you question my opinion on a Fantasy Fight because of the rounds that a fighter hasn't fought, but don't post your opinion on the fight.


Not exactly an answer, is it?

I actually see this as a BORING match up, an absolute snoozer. They would both be dangling the bait, & neither is going to bite. That said, I would say Marvin is more of a risk taker, & probably have more success in scoring points, while X waits a bit too long to make his move on the chess board.

Head saids Hagler, but it wouldn't surprise me if X won either. I lean towards Hagler bc/ his offense is a bit crisper than X's, as well as his better overall comp.

Now, care to address the 15 round issue?
xxxxxx
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]366205[/snapback]
Not exactly an answer, is it?

I actually see this as a BORING match up, an absolute snoozer. They would both be dangling the bait, & neither is going to bite. That said, I would say Marvin is more of a risk taker, & probably have more success in scoring points, while X waits a bit too long to make his move on the chess board.

Head saids Hagler, but it wouldn't surprise me if X won either. I lean towards Hagler bc/ his offense is a bit crisper than X's, as well as his better overall comp.

Now, care to address the 15 round issue?



Listen man, it's a Fantasy fight.And I already stated why the 15 rd fight could favor X.I also think Hops is a very smart dude and a 15 rd fight could favor him because it gives the man more time to figure Hagler out.
Nobudius
QUOTE(Fuse @ Nov 20 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]366201[/snapback]
Wow, I wasn't even able to make it that far into that guys post before moving on. Hagler didn't fight in 15 rounders? This guy REALLY doesn't belong in this discussion!


Why doesn't he belong? He's contributing to the thread & on the site.

I mean, after all these years, I still don't know jack sh!t.
Nobudius
QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Nov 20 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]366208[/snapback]
Listen man, it's a Fantasy fight.And I already stated why the 15 rd fight could favor X.I also think Hops is a very smart dude and a 15 rd fight could favor him because it gives the man more time to figure Hagler out.


Hopkins is quite clever, but he's NEVER gone 15 before. He has great stamina, & I'm sure he can adapt to an additional 3 rounds...... but still, that's a benefit I won't give to X over a guy that has actually gone the whole 15. Even more so if it's a Hagler calibur opponent.

Also, Hopkins is a difficult guy to gauge, b/c his peak is bunched in between his "Executioner" tag, & the clever fox everybody views him as today. He did have a window where he melded the two together... but it was short due to his gradual decline in his punch output (AGE), & against opposition where he was clearly the better man.
xxxxxx
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]366215[/snapback]
Hopkins is quite clever, but he's NEVER gone 15 before. He has great stamina, & I'm sure he can adapt to an additional 3 rounds...... but still, that's a benefit I won't give to X over a guy that has actually gone the whole 15. Even more so if it's a Hagler calibur opponent.

Also, Hopkins is a difficult guy to gauge, b/c his peak is bunched in between his "Executioner" tag, & the clever fox everybody views him as today. He did have a window where he melded the two together... but it was short due to his gradual decline in his punch output (AGE), & against opposition where he was clearly the better man.


15,12,20 who cares how many rounds.I'd like to go back to the gladiator days and have these guys fight barenuckles until someone can't fight anymore.Who do you think wins that one?
Nobudius
QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Nov 20 2007, 01:33 PM) [snapback]366217[/snapback]
15,12,20 who cares how many rounds.I'd like to go back to the gladiator days and have these guys fight barenuckles until someone can't fight anymore.Who do you think wins that one?


Huh?

I always thought there was a BIG difference between 12 & 15. Man, what the hell was I thinking?

What's next? Who is better in Madden Football?
Maxy
Back in the days when I started watching boxing they also used to say "Now we are hitting the championship rounds" when the bout went into the 13th. Some commentators, at least over here, say that now when a bout reaches the 10th.

Its just not the same is it?

Marvin Hagler boxed in an era when 15 round fights were the norm for the title so in that regard he has an advantage over Hopkins...although I don't doubt Hopkins could have boxed 15 rounds either.

Its a really tough one to pick a winner...I'd favour Hagler if I was really pushed but I'd never be overly confident about it.
xxxxxx
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 02:36 PM) [snapback]366218[/snapback]
Huh?

I always thought there was a BIG difference between 12 & 15. Man, what the hell was I thinking?

What's next? Who is better in Madden Football?



first of all, I know Hopkins never fought 15 rd fights and second of all i would destroy you in madden football.ha
xxxxxx
I always invisioned Hopkins a throwback fighter that would of benefited from a 15 rd fight.That's why I would give a SLIGHT edge to Hopkins in a 15 rd fight over a 12 rd fight.Remember, were talking about a fanatsy fight here so it's not out of the ordinary to favor Hopkins in a fight where the rounds are 3 more than what he's accustomed to.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]366198[/snapback]
Listen.... everybody has opinions, but are you SURE Hagler never fought in 15 R fights?

Your view on SRR is...... interesting.



I guess I'm curious... How did you come to the conclusion that I said Hagler never fought in 15 rounders from my quote,"In Hagler's case, he did fight in 15rounders." Why would you ask me if I'm sure Hagler never fought in 15 rounders after my quote?? I think its pretty well documented that he did. I've actually watched Hagler fight 15 rounds. Just curious...
Nobudius
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 20 2007, 03:48 PM) [snapback]366259[/snapback]
I guess I'm curious... How did you come to the conclusion that I said Hagler never fought in 15 rounders from my quote,"In Hagler's case, he did fight in 15rounders." Why would you ask me if I'm sure Hagler never fought in 15 rounders after my quote?? I think its pretty well documented that he did. I've actually watched Hagler fight 15 rounds. Just curious...


Whoa. Now I am reading your quote again. Maybe my eyes ARE going.

Whew.

*bowing*

Apologizes to the confusion.

And Maxy, it defintely isn't the same. This is a big beef with me regarding today's boxing-maybe second to same day weigh ins.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(Fuse @ Nov 20 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]366201[/snapback]
Wow, I wasn't even able to make it that far into that guys post before moving on. Hagler didn't fight in 15 rounders? This guy REALLY doesn't belong in this discussion!

I think his view on anything older than 5 years is "interesting". This must be the same guy who thought that Pavlik would be a good fight for Hagler.



Rest assured... I never said hagler never fought in 15 rounders. I did however say that Hagler would get some work from Kelly Pavlik. Pavlik's size and power would be enought to make Hagler think. Hearns and Duran gave Hagler work. Duran to the tune of a close fought 15 rounder. Hearns to a 3 round bloodbath. I think its safe to say that KP would be the biggest MW hagler would have faced. Hearns and Duran were smaller men moving up to fight Hagler. KP has been a MW his whole career. His size, power and stamina would be big obstacles for Hagler to overcome. As you can see from my posts, I'm not enamored with a guy just because he fought 25 years ago. As a teenager, we thought Marvin Hagler walked on water... He had iron in his fists and iron in his jaw.
Nobudius
Pavlik wouldn't even be a middleweight 25 years ago.

...... something about the way we are breaking down Hagler here isn't right. Marvin faced established, hardcore middles during his Philly run alone, & yet the Duran/Hearns bouts are being used as examples.

It doesn't sit right......
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Nov 20 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]366281[/snapback]
Pavlik wouldn't even be a middleweight 25 years ago.

...... something about the way we are breaking down Hagler here isn't right. Marvin faced established, hardcore middles during his Philly run alone, & yet the Duran/Hearns bouts are being used as examples.

It doesn't sit right......



If Pavlik weighed in at 160, what would he have been 25 years ago? No question that Hagler faced established MW's. The well established MW's of his era were no better than those of Hopkins era. Hagler had his Vito Antuafermo and John"the Beast"Mugabi. Hopkins had his Kieth Holmes and Antwun Echols. Most of the guys Hagler faced were well under 6 feet tall. Hearns may have been the tallest guy Hagler faced. Granted, hagler disposed of Hearns, but not without giving the fight of his life. KP is bigger than Hearns and probably hits harder.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Nov 20 2007, 06:33 PM) [snapback]366217[/snapback]
15,12,20 who cares how many rounds.I'd like to go back to the gladiator days and have these guys fight barenuckles until someone can't fight anymore.Who do you think wins that one?



Hagler.
Nobudius
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 20 2007, 05:10 PM) [snapback]366285[/snapback]
If Pavlik weighed in at 160, what would he have been 25 years ago? No question that Hagler faced established MW's. The well established MW's of his era were no better than those of Hopkins era. Hagler had his Vito Antuafermo and John"the Beast"Mugabi. Hopkins had his Kieth Holmes and Antwun Echols. Most of the guys Hagler faced were well under 6 feet tall. Hearns may have been the tallest guy Hagler faced. Granted, hagler disposed of Hearns, but not without giving the fight of his life. KP is bigger than Hearns and probably hits harder.


Jesus Christ, are we talking about Marvelous Marvin Hagler, one of the greatest middleweights ever, or Edison Miranda here? Kelly Pavlik? I mean, I'm rooting for The Ghost & his bright future here, but c'mon.

If you want to point out the fighters that gave Marvin problems, you're not giving the best examples here. Duran & Tommy? I ain't no Marvin homer, but he is being shown some disrespect here-no wonder the guy has a chip on his shoulder.

I'll say it again: Philadelphia.
PR316
I think Hopkins would find a way to win. Bernard is definitely not pretty to watch. You can compare his boxing style to Italian football. Mauling, physical, and ugly. Definitely not much style and grace there but its very effective.


Hagler makes it close enough though that its a controversial fight and thus a rematch would be demanded, with Hagler possibly getting the nod the 2nd time.
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