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Full Version: Prime PBF VS. Prime Sweet Pea
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Abdul
Who takes it and why???
and the NEW
There was a thread on this a while ago, cant remember who I picked then, but I know it was real close.

I would currently take Floyd by decision in a very close fight. Too accurate for Pea. Pretty evenly matched other than that.
Maxy
I'd take Whitaker. The man was a genius.
BigG
DRAW! I would have rooted for Sweet Pea.
The Original MrFactor
At 140, I'd take Pea, by decision. At 147, I'd take Mayweather by decision.
PR316
Could go either way. Mayweather was very accurate so that might give him the edge. Whitaker was just as smart, though and knew how adjust to any style.


I'll say a draw, honestly. This would too hard to score.
The CEO
Yeah...it would be close....but I think I would personally score it for Mayweather...I'm not a big fan of all the posturing Pea did...he had some brilliant, original, defensive moves....I see Mayweather's accurate offense shining several moments throughout the fight while Pea was doing his "other" stuff...

Money May by SD or close UD.
Maxy
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Dec 11 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]370007[/snapback]
Yeah...it would be close....but I think I would personally score it for Mayweather...I'm not a big fan of all the posturing Pea did...he had some brilliant, original, defensive moves....I see Mayweather's accurate offense shining several moments throughout the fight while Pea was doing his "other" stuff...

Money May by SD or close UD.


Look he beat Hatton...Hatton lost...the sky is blue and all that. You're content.

He ain't beating Whitaker though. Pernell smart and Mayweather smart are two different things and Sweet Pea is a damn sight smarter than Mayweather.

UD Pete.
The CEO
QUOTE(Maxy @ Dec 11 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]370043[/snapback]
Look he beat Hatton...Hatton lost...the sky is blue and all that. You're content.

He ain't beating Whitaker though. Pernell smart and Mayweather smart are two different things and Sweet Pea is a damn sight smarter than Mayweather.

UD Pete.


Yes. I'm VERY content...so please let that go...I had every right to be a real ass after that fight, and I wasn't.....I thought you would respect that....

mellow.gif

This is my personal opinion on this matchup...I know you dig Pea by your sig...but and the NEW feels Money would win...so does The Original Mister Factor at 147...

Others are calling Draws...it is what it is...a good even matchup.
and the NEW
QUOTE(Maxy @ Dec 11 2007, 10:38 PM) [snapback]370043[/snapback]
Look he beat Hatton...Hatton lost...the sky is blue and all that. You're content.

He ain't beating Whitaker though. Pernell smart and Mayweather smart are two different things and Sweet Pea is a damn sight smarter than Mayweather.

UD Pete.


Not sure how you can say Whitaker was way smarter than Mayweather Maxy..........?

Whitaker fought a Nelson coming up in weight and struggled late, he wasnt nearly the beast of Mayweather in the late rounds, and he also got hit more! Not as accurate either. Just subtle head movement, great one-two and kept out of the killzone. Also very good at turning people to get himself off the ropes and out of corners.
kidbazooka1
DQ by both fighters running from each other. LOL
Southeastpaw
As much as I really liked Sweetpea, I'd have to go with Floyd. Floyd is so crafty in every aspect of the game. What really impressed me last saturday night was the way Floyd did not fold or tire one bit. He did not get discouraged or disheartened. I already thought highly of him in the ring before that, but he showed some mental strength that I was not too sure that he had. Mayweather is just has a little more than Whitaker had, IMO of course. A little more offense, precision, size, timing, but on par with speed and D.
kidbazooka1
I've noticed that Mayweather is becoming extremly overratted by some on these boards.

and the NEW
QUOTE(kidbazooka1 @ Dec 13 2007, 03:04 AM) [snapback]370252[/snapback]
I've noticed that Mayweather is becoming extremly overratted by some on these boards.


You can search for my breakdown of top 10 (though I think I included about 12) lightweights of all-time, and how I ranked them where they are. Then compare their achievements to Mayweathers and tell me exactly how he is overrated. I looked at 3 different criteria I beleive.
and the NEW
Infact, here it is. Feel free to debate.

Top 10 lightweights of all-time:

1) Duran
2) Armstrong
3) Leonard
4) Whitaker
5) Williams
6) Ross
7) Gans
8) Canzoneri
9) Arguello
10) Chavez

Just for the sake of it:

11) Pryor
12) Ortiz

Here is breif explanation of why each ranks where they do. When I talk about defences, it might not be right on the mark, some are just what I remember of who they fought, defences are also in terms of successful defences. I ranked each fighter according to 3 criteria, competition, my opinion of them after viewing each, and defences. Weight divisions was also a small factor in the composition of my list.

Duran - The longest reigning lightweight champion in history (from one source I read this title belonged to Benny Leonard, however from another I read Duran). Either way, they were very very close to the same time period. I have not checked this on "boxrec" lol. 12 defences. Wins over Buchanan, Dejesus etc. Beating the great Ray Leonard at welter. Furthermore, way past his prime, beating guys such as Moore, Palomino, Cuevas, and even Barkley at middle justifies why he is on top of the list at number one.

Armstrong - Did not have a long lightweight tenure, however beat Ambers there and was one of the greatest men to fight at the 135 pound limit. Beat Ross at welter, and defended the title around 19 times. Held 3 titles, from feather to welter simultaneously, and had a draw with Ceferino Garcia, a man he previously beat in a welter defence.

Leonard - Beat welsh for the title and many other top lightweights of the time. Never lost the title. Reigned over one of the longest periods in lightweight champion history. Was beating Britton for the welterweight title, with 2 rounds to go, however hit him while down and lost a DQ. Beat Britton twice earlier, by newspaper decisions (most bets and fight outcomes were decided by newspaper decisions early in the gloved period). A newspaper decision, is where I would bet with another man on who would win, according to a certain writer of the time, the bet outcome would be taken from that writers opinion.

Whitaker - Beat Nelson, Ramirez etc and made around 8 defences. Beat Chavez at 140 (my opinion). McGirt at 147, making around 8 defences of that title also. Also won the light middle title. He moved up the list as simply from viewing him, I beleive he was something special at light.

Williams - possibly the greatest light of all time, simply on raw ability and hitting power. I think on his night, he could have beaten any man in the division. Beat Angott, Montgomery in 6, Jack 3 times, Flores, Balanos, Dawson (one of the best lightweight fighters never to win a title) as he could not beat Williams. Fought him 4 times, receiving 1 draw and three losses to the superior Williams. Beat Gavilan. Due to blacklisting and injuries + (weight draining), did not fulfill his potential.
and the NEW
Ross - Canzonari twice. McLarnin 2 out of 3. Light/light-welter champ from 1933-35, welter champ 1934, 35-38. One thing that struck me, was after viewing him, I found him a great fighter, but not as impressive as some of the other lightweight greats.

Gans - His record speaks for itself, with most of his losses having suspicion attatched. Champ between 1902 and 1908. 6 defences. 20 round draw with Joe Walcott. Looked great on the poor quality footage I have seen of him.

Canzoneri - Won 140 title against Berg (however, officially a lightweight match, as both were under the light limit). Feather champ 1928, light 1930-33, 35-36. Light-welter 1931-32, 33. Beat great opponents such as, Kid Chocolate, McLarnin, Ambers.

Arguello - Olivarez at feather (5 defences). Chacon at super-feather (8 defences). Marcini at light (4 defences). Close fight with Pryor at 140 until being stopped in the 14th.

Chavez - 130 - 9 defences. 135 - 2 defences. 140 - 12 defences. Beat big names such as Taylor, Ramirez, Rosario, LaPorte, and others such as Camacho, Randell, Mayweather.

The next two did not make my top 10, as I dont think they had as good competition. Ortiz did beat Brown however, and Pryor both Cervantes (a past it Cervantes however) and Arguello (once more, not a prime Arguello). Both did look to be just as skilled, if not more skilled, than some of the lower of the top 10 in my list. However, due to the way I disected each fighter, and rated them, they did not make my top 10.
Maxy
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Dec 11 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]370052[/snapback]
Yes. I'm VERY content...so please let that go...I had every right to be a real ass after that fight, and I wasn't.....I thought you would respect that....

mellow.gif

This is my personal opinion on this matchup...I know you dig Pea by your sig...but and the NEW feels Money would win...so does The Original Mister Factor at 147...

Others are calling Draws...it is what it is...a good even matchup.


Nah man you took that the wrong way...I don't care if you were an ass or not about Hatton. Fuck Hatton, he didn't do shit against Mayweather and I expected a lot more from him....certainly didn't expect to see the pale-faced prick (I'm white but nobody is THAT white) headbutting the corner post. laugh.gif
That fight didn't start until 4.45am UK time...I didn't get to bed until 6am...it was a long day.

Whitaker is my favourite fighter. When Floyd keeps winning I expect to see people say he could beat Pernell and it cuts me to the bone. I'm a sour old cunt. I don't like people saying Floyd could beat my man. I may be blinded by love but I can't accept it. laugh.gif

At Lightweight I believe Whitaker definitely beats Mayweather.
Nobudius
Hey New,

How long did it take for you to compile that list? They are a b!tch, ain't it, especially in DEEP divisions? The worst is when you forget a fighter(s), & you may have to rethink the thought process all over again.

There are other factors such as same day weigh-ins, the delight of NEW footage if we are lucky, & etc. I can't even rate the likes of Beau Jack(b/c he gets destroyed in his only footage) or Bob Montgomery FAIRLY. Depending on what surfaces, these guys may shoot up the charts ahead of others(the opposite can happen too. If they aren't impressive to the eye, it will bring down the likes of Ike Williams).

Then there are guys such as Napoles or Pryor, who never got shots as lightweights.

Maxy
and the NEW, don't you think Whitaker beats Mayweather at 135? Nobodius, same question to you?
Southeastpaw
To tell you the truth Maxy, that is where I thought Mayweather was at his best. He was mose defensively sound when he was a younger fighter @ 135. And his refexes were faster than they are now as well. But he has become savy and knows how to deal with pressure moreso now than he did then. but with Pernell, he would not have had to worry about being pressured. I have seen quite a bit from both of these fighters and I rank Sweetpea high on a P4P all time list, but I still see Floyd beating him there. Sry man. IMO.

If it makes you feel any better, my fav fighter was Tito. So I have had a thorn in my side for quite a while now puttin up with BHop. But the funny thing is that I am starting to warm up to Bernard. lol
Nobudius
QUOTE(Maxy @ Dec 13 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]370363[/snapback]
and the NEW, don't you think Whitaker beats Mayweather at 135? Nobodius, same question to you?


At 135, it's definitely possible-currently, I think I would lean towards Pea. Their speed is similar here, although PBF looks faster in higher weights.

The thing is, Mayweather at 130 was when I was looking at him in the vein of a true, ATG- where we weed out greats from other greats. Like..... wow- that kind of an impression. The way he outclassed Hernandez, Corrales, Diego...... those are the fights I remember, when he was pulling the trigger, with the power to show. Those variables have depreciated for PBF as he has moved up.

Is that a factor in how he would do against Pea? Maybe, maybe not. But it's just something to show people in regards to where I'm coming from.

Whitaker did give the impression of not trying, or giving a sh!t though, when HE thought he was ahead on the cards, rather than the judges. You know, clown time?
Maxy
This is an old vid...and yeah, everyone looks brilliant on youtube highlight vids...I like this one though..

Pernell Whitaker
Nobudius
QUOTE(Maxy @ Dec 13 2007, 03:59 PM) [snapback]370379[/snapback]
This is an old vid...and yeah, everyone looks brilliant on youtube highlight vids...I like this one though..

Pernell Whitaker


Even watching a highlight video, you can see that Whitaker & Mayweather really aren't that "alike", although people seem to put these two guys in the same sentence often.
Southeastpaw
I meant 130 instead of 135 in my previous post. But I still think he beats him @ 135 as well.
and the NEW
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Dec 13 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]370350[/snapback]
Hey New,

How long did it take for you to compile that list? They are a b!tch, ain't it, especially in DEEP divisions? The worst is when you forget a fighter(s), & you may have to rethink the thought process all over again.

There are other factors such as same day weigh-ins, the delight of NEW footage if we are lucky, & etc. I can't even rate the likes of Beau Jack(b/c he gets destroyed in his only footage) or Bob Montgomery FAIRLY. Depending on what surfaces, these guys may shoot up the charts ahead of others(the opposite can happen too. If they aren't impressive to the eye, it will bring down the likes of Ike Williams).

Then there are guys such as Napoles or Pryor, who never got shots as lightweights.


Absolutely Nobudius! It is so damn hard! Some of the old footage (Gans), is absolutely HORRIBLE! It is not in real time, they move so quick and it is jumpy! Makes is really impossible to get a good indication of how great they really were! Thats when it comes down more to competition and defences etc. However, even then, without looking really at their opponents, all I can go by is what is written about them.

Yeh, one man I wish stayed at light was Pryor!

Cant remember how long it took, but there were pages and pages of notes about my impressions and trying to give some kind of statistical points to each guy depending on how I rated them on each criteria! I dont even neccessarily agree with my own list at this point in time, but hey, I aint gonna break it all down like I did back then. Ended up taking so long, that I didnt even bother making my welter list. Welter and Light are my favourite divisions. Then imagine doing one for each division and putting that into a P4P list! ha ha, I dont think I could bare it!
and the NEW
QUOTE(Nobudius @ Dec 13 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]370384[/snapback]
Even watching a highlight video, you can see that Whitaker & Mayweather really aren't that "alike", although people seem to put these two guys in the same sentence often.


Absolutely! Completely different forms of defence for both men.

They arent alike at all, which brings me to my next reply.
and the NEW
QUOTE(Maxy @ Dec 13 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]370363[/snapback]
and the NEW, don't you think Whitaker beats Mayweather at 135? Nobodius, same question to you?


I think 135 would be a boxing bananza! A tactical chess match and a brilliant one at that! Mayweather really was a pure boxer most of his time from 135 down! I think this division would be too close to call. It could really go either way.

At Welter, I think Mayweather was far more impressive than Pea, and one thing that got me with Pea is that he tired. If Mayweather boxed and pot shotted him, he might just be able to eek a decision. If Mayweather walked him down a bit more and pressure the fight, I think he MAY have been able to do even better. Whitaker tired late, and this is when Mayweather did his best work, I can see a close fight through 9-10, with Mayweather putting it on Pea a bit in the last couple rounds.

I agree with Nobudius though, Mayweather impressed me most at 130, his fight with Corrales was just a legendary performance! Though, behind that, I would give Hatton his second best performance. I didnt think he could beat Hatton at his own game, never seen Mayweather look good on the inside, wrasstling, hitting and holding, and standing toe to toe (though he did this against Ndou and Corley, but they arent quiet the level of Hatton). Just showed me Mayweather really has the ability to stand in there with the best of them, his endurance is astounding and with that close quarters defence, makes him really able to stand inside with a slugger if worst comes to worst.

Pea is also one of my all-time favourite fighters, but I think Mayweathers timing might JUST be the difference. Would possibly be my all-time favourite matchup though. I love watching chess matches between two great boxers!
Nobudius
I'm actually surprised some people think PBF's victory over Hatton was THAT impressive. More or less, Mayweather did what he had to do, & disposed of a guy that was not in his league.

The KO.... WAS impressive, b/c I doubt many people were expecting it, including me. But still.......I'm probably more DISAPPOINTED than anything from Hatton. The Collazo bout is looking more like a trend than a mirage-which is good though, b/c figuring out trends in this sport moves along at a snail's pace. I think Hatton's win over Castillo also clouded things-you know, Castillo gave PBF fits, & Hatton beat Castillo. Sort of the basic trap many of us get into when trying to analyze things.

Anyway, this thread's 135 pairing-I have a feeling it would be a difficult fight to score on the cards. Mayweather isn't going to win by pot shotting-I think he'll lose if he chooses this method, b/c he'll be missing. ALOT.

New, I agree with you about PBF's timing being a strength, but it's going to take him several rounds against Pea, if he figures it out at all in the course of the fight. Those counters & hooks that look oh so sweet against Hatton aren't going to be landing.

I sort of see a situation where either of these guys don't do enough to figure each other out in the course of the fight. In this type of match up, I tend to favor the guy with the better jab. Hence, a difficult fight to score-and the type of fight people will LOVE or LOATHE.

....Mayweather's defense reminds me more of Nicolino Locche than Whitaker-the use of the arms.
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