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Southeastpaw
Jermaine says he wants Cal if and when he gets past Pavlik.

I don't know about you guys, but Pavlik should be the ONLY thing on Taylor's mind right now. Although I would not mind seeing a Taylor/Cal fight. Don't really care for either of these guys, but you can bet your rear that I'd be rooting for Taylor. lol
BigG
First of all, I think Taylor will get stopped by Kelly again...after a good start. I expect him to fade and get stopped. Just like the first fight.

QUOTE
Should Hopkins agree to fight Calzaghe, however, DiBella said the Welshman would win easily against a fighter who will turn 43 in January and whom Taylor defeated twice on points in 2005. "I'm not confident that fight will happen because I'm not confident they can make a business deal with Bernard," DiBella said. "But I don't even think it's competitive. That's no disrespect to Hopkins who was one of the great fighters of all time, but I just don't see Calzaghe losing to a 43-year-old man who can't punch."


LOL....same shit they said about Hopkins-Tarver. I think Hopkins might surprise alot of people if he and Calzaghe ever fought.
Blayde
Thing is... Calzaghe is no Tarver. Calzaghe may even still be underrated, Tarver was overrated.

Although Ive got to agree the age argument sounds like an excuse for Taylors performances against B-Hop. They dont want these to be compared with what Calzaghe will do to Hopkins.
singletrack
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 12 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]370130[/snapback]
Jermaine says he wants Cal if and when he gets past Pavlik.

I don't know about you guys, but Pavlik should be the ONLY thing on Taylor's mind right now. Although I would not mind seeing a Taylor/Cal fight. Don't really care for either of these guys, but you can bet your rear that I'd be rooting for Taylor. lol


LOL! First of all, Taylor is getting KTFO again.

If, by some miracle, he did actually face Cal it would be a massacre IMO. The guy has the worst reaction times I've ever seen and Cal has extremely quick hands.

In addition, Taylor tends to cover and backpedal when people come flying in, which is perfect for Cal.

I see Cal by decision or possible late KO due to twelve rounds of unanswered bitch-slapping.
salvador
I'd rather see Pavlik in with Calzaghe, but he says he's going back to mw where he'll be champ whether or not he beats JT.

A 35 year old Hopkins picks Joe apart, but at 43 he's just not fast enough and he doesn't throw enough punches to get a decision.
hitman harding
Joe C
Is too me the greatest Super Middle of all time. He would have been too quick RJJ and to cagy for Nigel Benn and have too much power for Sven Ottke. The guys defence is unflappable and he throws 8-10 punch combo's even if theres a few slapps in there . His ring manship and balance and poise is amazing.
His biggest problem has been Frank Warren and being a south paw that is super quick. Who wants to fight a guy like that?
He gives old man Hopkins a bad beating.
Southeastpaw
If Pavlik is a B grade middle then who is an A grade middle?
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 12 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]370195[/snapback]
Joe C
Is too me the greatest Super Middle of all time. He would have been too quick RJJ...


Are you serious?

BrutalBodyShots
Taylor would look against Calzaghe the way Lacy did.
singletrack
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 12 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]370195[/snapback]
Joe C
Is too me the greatest Super Middle of all time. He would have been too quick RJJ and to cagy for Nigel Benn and have too much power for Sven Ottke. The guys defence is unflappable and he throws 8-10 punch combo's even if theres a few slapps in there . His ring manship and balance and poise is amazing.
His biggest problem has been Frank Warren and being a south paw that is super quick. Who wants to fight a guy like that?
He gives old man Hopkins a bad beating.


A prime RJJ would have Cal on the canvas multiple times and possibly stop him. IMO.

singletrack
QUOTE(Fitz @ Dec 12 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]370196[/snapback]
Taylor is an idiot. He lost to a B grade middleweight. He should worry about avenging that loss before he tries beating a bigger and better fighter.


I think you're underrating Pavlik.
Southeastpaw
hitman, you done gone cuckoo. Cal never was, is, or will be quicker than RJJ was. Roy would have embarrassed Calzaghe. A prime Roy of course.
BigG
Based on Calzaghe's fights with Kessler and Lacy, I think Roy would give him trouble NOW. In his prime, he beats him by UD.
Southeastpaw
LOL. Funny, but no trick question. You are not a fan of Pavlik's style, I know, but a B level fighter is not going to accomplish at any weight what Pavlik accomplished @ mw and in the fashion he did it in this year. Pavlik destroyed one C class fighter, one B class fighter, and one A class fighter. All by impressive KO.
BrutalBodyShots
Pavlik is one of those guys that is hard to rate at the "A" level simply because it's easy to point out the holes in his game... problem is that no one has been able to capitalize on those flaws and beat him. I wouldn't rate him as the Mayorga, fly by night type champion but he's certainly the type of guy that could be comfortably UD'd by a solid boxer-puncher. I think a guy like Abraham would give Pavlik a really good fight.

BrutalBodyShots
At 168 IMO Jones beats Calzaghe 10 times out of 10 (assuming a prime Jones of course). Probably stops him 4 or 5 out of those 10 as well.

Southeastpaw
QUOTE(Fitz @ Dec 12 2007, 09:08 PM) [snapback]370231[/snapback]
It's possible when the rest of the playing field are B level at most. Pavlik is ok, I'm not saying he totally sucks I am just not high on him like everyone else.

I added more onto my original post as well. Does a B evel fighter accomplish what pavlik did against the level of fighters he did it against in one year and in the fashion he did it in?
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Fitz @ Dec 12 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]370243[/snapback]
The level of competition? Miranda and Taylor? The bar hasn't been set too high. Spinks along with another couple of guys could argue they already beat him.
As for your question, another B level fighter accomplished what Pavlik did. Look at Ricardo Mayorga, I would say beating Forrest 2 times and Spinks in one year is actually better than a win over Taylor and Miranda and to be honest, I would probably say Mayorga is a C+, possibly a B- if I want to be generous.


Stealing my Mayorga reference Fitz? LOL... I see what you are saying but don't completely agree. Pavlik's fundamentals are far superior to Mayorga's and will allow Pavlik to compete at the top level longer than Mayorga did. Mayorga was just a wild brawler trying to land that one punch, were Pavlik can still prevail if that one punch doesn't come. I think when it is all said and done and when the smoke clears we will see Pavlik as being a solid B or B+ middleweight (rated higher than Mayorga) but not on the A level.

Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 12 2007, 08:47 PM) [snapback]370223[/snapback]
hitman, you done gone cuckoo. Cal never was, is, or will be quicker than RJJ was. Roy would have embarrassed Calzaghe. A prime Roy of course.

Exactly, EMBARRASSED!!! Also, for someone who just got KTFO, why is he even mentioning Calzaghe when he got more important issues to take care of?
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Fitz @ Dec 12 2007, 10:15 PM) [snapback]370257[/snapback]
I agree, Pavlik is much better than Mayorga. I was just responding to SPaw, because he wanted to know what other B level fighter accomplished what Pavlik did, and Mayorga is definitely not higher than a B and could argue he is a C and he accomplished what Pavlik done as well. I agree with everything you said though, no doubt Pavlik has better fundamentals and that, but just pointed out to Paw because he asked, that someone less than Pavlik has accomplished what he has done in 1 year. You could argue the competition was better than Pavlik's as well.


True, I agree with his competition being on par or arguably better for that year. I think looking back at it all in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't rate Mayorga above a C level fighter overall... and at his peak I probably thought of him more as a B fighter. I think with Pavlik while many may view him as an A fighter being the man in the division and all, in retrospect when he finally does get beaten by a more skilled fighter people will realize he was more of the B variety. I think when you have a guy like Mayorga or Pavlik that has above average punching power and makes their way to the top (as both did) with their punching power being a key factor it is easier to get blinded by their power and not see the holes in their game as easily as if they were average punchers... I mean their punching power wins them fights and that's exciting from a fans perspective which can often cloud judgement overall.
Fitz
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 13 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]370269[/snapback]
True, I agree with his competition being on par or arguably better for that year. I think looking back at it all in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't rate Mayorga above a C level fighter overall... and at his peak I probably thought of him more as a B fighter. I think with Pavlik while many may view him as an A fighter being the man in the division and all, in retrospect when he finally does get beaten by a more skilled fighter people will realize he was more of the B variety. I think when you have a guy like Mayorga or Pavlik that has above average punching power and makes their way to the top (as both did) with their punching power being a key factor it is easier to get blinded by their power and not see the holes in their game as easily as if they were average punchers... I mean their punching power wins them fights and that's exciting from a fans perspective which can often cloud judgement overall.


Agreed. The same thing happened to Jeff Lacy. I have always said that people tend to overrate power, and people continue to to pick good punchers over good boxers. It will probably be the case again when Pacquiao-Marquez II happens.
hitman harding
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 12 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]370214[/snapback]
A prime RJJ would have Cal on the canvas multiple times and possibly stop him. IMO.


Spoken like like true Yank laugh.gif
hitman harding
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 12 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]370234[/snapback]
At 168 IMO Jones beats Calzaghe 10 times out of 10 (assuming a prime Jones of course). Probably stops him 4 or 5 out of those 10 as well.


Well brutal know your taking the mickey!!!! Jones would stop Joe laugh.gif laugh.gif . I would bet the world Joe C would give Rjj more then he could handle every day off the week.
Rjj = over hyped has been
hitman harding
I guess a raw Bernard Hopkins and a fit James Toney along with Dariusz Michalczewski left overs make you the best with out question ?
You guys are mostly single minded PPV boys beleiving too much hype and not the cold hard facts
BigG
A raw Bernard Hopkins is WAAAAY better then anyone Calzaghe has ever beaten.

Are you gonna tell me the slow, defensively INEPT Jeff Lacy was better?
Southeastpaw
With the exception of the 2nd round in his fight with Taylor, I had Pavlik pretty much dominating Taylor enroute to a stoppage. A B level doing that to an A level? And Taylor is an A level fighter. Why? Because of his performances against elite competition in Hopkins and Wright. When was the last time a B level fighter was ranked within the top 5 on most P4P lists? Pavlik fought and impressively stopped a C level fighter in Zertuchi, a B level fighter in Miranda, and an A level fighter in Taylor all in one year. Pavlik is an A level fighter. And if you do not think so now, it will come across sooner or later after he dominates the MW division for a while. Just because a fighters style is not fan friendly or not of one's taste does not mean he is a B level fighter. I argued the same thing about Cotto a couple years back. I thought he was A level and many on here did not. But guess what?

Pavlik is an A level fighter and will prove to be just that to the critics. It just takes some of you all a little longer to recognize these things. Thats all.
Fitz
Taylor an 'A' level fighter? Come on SE. No way.
Southeastpaw
After beating Hopkins twice and drawing with Wright, it is hard not to rank him there. I am not a fan of him or his style, but that is where I place him. I think it would be a major discredit to both Hopkins and Wright to rank Taylor below that. Just the way I see things. But I am realizing that the criteria we are using to rank in this sense are not universal. So to each his own I guess.
buford54
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 12 2007, 07:06 PM) [snapback]370195[/snapback]
Joe C
Is too me the greatest Super Middle of all time. He would have been too quick RJJ and to cagy for Nigel Benn and have too much power for Sven Ottke. The guys defence is unflappable and he throws 8-10 punch combo's even if theres a few slapps in there . His ring manship and balance and poise is amazing.
His biggest problem has been Frank Warren and being a south paw that is super quick. Who wants to fight a guy like that?
He gives old man Hopkins a bad beating.


Sorry dude...no disrespect...but saying anyone is too quick for RJJ at 168 is just the worst way to open a post. He might too quick for him NOW...but at 168, you're talking about prime RJJ and nobody was quicker than prime RJJ (and I never liked Roy).

You're right that his biggest problem has been Frank Warren, and he is a phenominal fighter...but too quick for RJJ?
I also take issue with the whole "too much power for Sven Ottke."
Just because Sven couldn't crack an egg doesn't mean he couldn't take a shot. He took Mundine's best and Mundine can certainly crack. Joe C isn't a huge puncher either. I'm not saying he wouldn't beat Ottke, but saying he has too much power for the guy seems like a random statement without much to back it up.

Nobudius
What's with the A's, B's, & C's?

Didn't Calzaghe want a piece of Taylor, before he lost? Wonder what JC thinks of him now?

As for Pavlik, I think he is headed in the direction of the Danny Lopez, Matthew Saad Muhammad mold. They aren't considered the greatest in their respective weight or maybe even the sport, but fans absolutely LOVE them for their LOAD of guts.
singletrack
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 12 2007, 11:50 PM) [snapback]370279[/snapback]
Spoken like like true Yank laugh.gif


That's one way to end a discussion I guess.
singletrack
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 13 2007, 12:01 AM) [snapback]370282[/snapback]
I guess a raw Bernard Hopkins and a fit James Toney along with Dariusz Michalczewski left overs make you the best with out question ?
You guys are mostly single minded PPV boys beleiving too much hype and not the cold hard facts


First of all, RJJ beat many solid fighters...he just made them look ridiculous because he was that good. Secondly, I don't think you want to play the resume game when comparing Cal to RJJ...BHop, Toney, and Ruiz alone trump Cal's entire career.

Here are the facts:

RJJ is stronger than Cal
RJJ (prime) was quicker than Cal
RJJ is more powerful than Cal
RJJ has fought better competition than Cal
RJJ will be ranked higher all-time than Cal
Cal has fought in Europe his whole life and in one weight class
RJJ has won titles in four weight classes

There is almost nothing Cal can do at this point in his life to get in the same league with RJJ IMO.


BrutalBodyShots
Just because we may rank one fighter as being "A" level and another "B" it doesn't mean that due to styles the B fighter won't beat the A fighter. A perfect example as already mentioned was Mayorga over Forrest. And just because a B fighter upsets an A fighter, it doesn't mean that the B fighter BECOMES an A fighter.
Nobudius
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 13 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]370346[/snapback]
Just because we may rank one fighter as being "A" level and another "B" it doesn't mean that due to styles the B fighter won't beat the A fighter. A perfect example as already mentioned was Mayorga over Forrest. And just because a B fighter upsets an A fighter, it doesn't mean that the B fighter BECOMES an A fighter.


I'm still shocked that Forrest got beat to that clown. Thought he won the second one though....

It's like The Blade getting to Hearns. On paper, and as well as the actual fight(s), Tommy PUNISHED Barkley. But for un-explicable reasons, he kept catching Tommy. Who would've thunk it?
Southeastpaw
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 13 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]370346[/snapback]
Just because we may rank one fighter as being "A" level and another "B" it doesn't mean that due to styles the B fighter won't beat the A fighter. A perfect example as already mentioned was Mayorga over Forrest. And just because a B fighter upsets an A fighter, it doesn't mean that the B fighter BECOMES an A fighter.

I totally understand that. However i think that many are downplaying Pavlik's skillset. I actually think that he has very good fundamantals and descent speed. He is just not graceful. Also, I believe that Pavlik would, without a doubt, beat all B level fighters at MW therefore knocking him up a grade in my book. And another thing, I don't think it is fair to compare Mayorga with Pavlik. Pavlik actualy does box and has fundamentals. Two totally different guys. When mayorga met two true A class fighter, he got demolished both times. Plus, I have never been that high on Forrest. We just don't see eye to eye when it comes to Pavlik, that's all.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 13 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]370373[/snapback]
I totally understand that. However i think that many are downplaying Pavlik's skillset. I actually think that he has very good fundamantals and descent speed. He is just not graceful. Also, I believe that Pavlik would, without a doubt, beat all B level fighters at MW therefore knocking him up a grade in my book. And another thing, I don't think it is fair to compare Mayorga with Pavlik. Pavlik actualy does box and has fundamentals. Two totally different guys. When mayorga met two true A class fighter, he got demolished both times. Plus, I have never been that high on Forrest. We just don't see eye to eye when it comes to Pavlik, that's all.


I agree with what you are saying and am not comparing Mayorga and Pavlik. I said earlier in the thread that Pavlik's skills are superior to Mayorga's. I was just pointing out that Mayorga (a B fighter at best) beat a nearly A guy in Forrest twice.

hitman harding
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 13 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]370337[/snapback]
First of all, RJJ beat many solid fighters...he just made them look ridiculous because he was that good. Secondly, I don't think you want to play the resume game when comparing Cal to RJJ...BHop, Toney, and Ruiz alone trump Cal's entire career.

Here are the facts:

RJJ is stronger than Cal
RJJ (prime) was quicker than Cal
RJJ is more powerful than Cal
RJJ has fought better competition than Cal
RJJ will be ranked higher all-time than Cal
Cal has fought in Europe his whole life and in one weight class
RJJ has won titles in four weight classes

There is almost nothing Cal can do at this point in his life to get in the same league with RJJ IMO.



Ruiz my god your stretching a bit there!!!. As i said Bhop and Toney and Darius let overs are his resume.
Let not forget the steriods which in modern sports is cheating
*RJJ should be remembered not for his titles but for the steriods he used to win*
BigG
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 14 2007, 02:58 AM) [snapback]370435[/snapback]
Ruiz my god your stretching a bit there!!!. As i said Bhop and Toney and Darius let overs are his resume.
Let not forget the steriods which in modern sports is cheating
*RJJ should be remembered not for his titles but for the steriods he used to win*



And BHOP and Toney make RJJ much greater then Calzaghe.

Lacy? laugh.gif

Kessler is not a great fighter...but a good solid wins.

Hopkins & Toney are GREAT wins.
The CEO
I see Double H has already relocated to Calzaghe's nuts.

laugh.gif

taunt.gif
BigG
Wait, Ruiz P4P is actually better then most of Calzaghe's best opponents. laugh.gif
hitman harding
RJJ has tested positive for steriods while boxing.
Plain as day he's a cheat. Please explain other wise *
Correct you can't so all his titles and wins have a BIG *
hitman harding
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Dec 13 2007, 11:09 PM) [snapback]370438[/snapback]
I see Double H has already relocated to Calzaghe's nuts.

laugh.gif

taunt.gif


Go back and read some early Lacy v Calazghe posts. That right you picked Lacy and I said he'd be owned like a little baby by Joe C
I guess i was on his nuts back then too

laugh.gif cool.gif

hitman harding
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Dec 13 2007, 11:13 PM) [snapback]370440[/snapback]
Wait, Ruiz P4P is actually better then most of Calzaghe's best opponents. laugh.gif


I'm glad you used most friends.gif
The CEO
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 13 2007, 10:17 PM) [snapback]370443[/snapback]
Go back and read some early Lacy v Calazghe posts. That right you picked Lacy and I said he'd be owned like a little baby by Joe C
I guess i was on his nuts back then too

laugh.gif cool.gif


Really?...that's news to me...seeing how my pick was Calzaghe, and I wasn't even a member here yet...

You're so damn retarded I feel sorry for you.

laugh.gif

How much rent is Joe charging you to stay on his nuts?



STEVENSKI
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 14 2007, 03:14 AM) [snapback]370442[/snapback]
RJJ has tested positive for steriods while boxing.
Plain as day he's a cheat. Please explain other wise *
Correct you can't so all his titles and wins have a BIG *


RJJ was a juicer his whole career & his wins are meaningless due to the fact that he was a steroid user. he is the Marion Jones of boxing & should be forced to give back all his world titles & his name be struck from the record books.
BigG
Even if RJJ was a juicer his whole career...he IS greater then Calzaghe ever was/is...there is no question about that. Like I said, Ruiz is a bigger win then every Calzaghe win with the exception of the Kessler win. laugh.gif
hitman harding
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Dec 14 2007, 12:29 AM) [snapback]370454[/snapback]
RJJ was a juicer his whole career & his wins are meaningless due to the fact that he was a steroid user. he is the Marion Jones of boxing & should be forced to give back all his world titles & his name be struck from the record books.


STEVENSKI is right his career is meaningless as he cheated.
hitman harding
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Dec 14 2007, 12:32 AM) [snapback]370455[/snapback]
Even if RJJ was a juicer his whole career...he IS greater then Calzaghe ever was/is...there is no question about that. Like I said, Ruiz is a bigger win then every Calzaghe win with the exception of the Kessler win. laugh.gif


Even if RJJ was a juicer his whole career .... He's still a fraud to anyone with 2 brain cells
Southeastpaw
QUOTE(hitman harding @ Dec 13 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]370456[/snapback]
STEVENSKI is right his career is meaningless as he cheated.

Now if only the people that mattered thought this way Jones just might not be recognized as one of the best fighters ever. However the people that matter rank him rightfully so. You take a look at any reputable all-time lists and you are going to see Roy towards the front, without a hint of steroid accusation. So, all this frustration you carry over it is only bothering you. Jones was the best of the era he fought in, HANDS DOWN. And it is lookin like Floyd is going to take it next. That's a double-whammy. I know it hurts.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 14 2007, 06:00 AM) [snapback]370464[/snapback]
Now if only the people that mattered thought this way Jones just might not be recognized as one of the best fighters ever. However the people that matter rank him rightfully so. You take a look at any reputable all-time lists and you are going to see Roy towards the front, without a hint of steroid accusation. So, all this frustration you carry over it is only bothering you. Jones was the best of the era he fought in, HANDS DOWN. And it is lookin like Floyd is going to take it next. That's a double-whammy. I know it hurts.


Well the people that matter must be on drugs themselves then. RJJ was a great fighter who took drugs to get a unfair advantage over his opponents which he should not have needed to do. BUT HE DID! He cheated & people give him a free pass on it. I don't & never will.
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