Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Margarito vs Cotto
FightHype Community > BOXING HYPE > Boxing
Pages: 1, 2
jp
If the Cotto vs Clottey/Margarito vs Judah card comes off and the appropriate people win, who would guys take in a fight between Margarito and Cotto? Cotto is my favorite fighter right now, and I think he's much more fundamentaly sound than Tony, but Margarito's size and workrate are going to be very tough to deal with. Both guys come forward and both are there to be hit but, Cotto takes too many rounds off and I'm not sure he's going to have enough in his gas tank to go toe to toe with Margarito for 12 rds. I'll be rooting for Cotto to win for sure, my gut is telling me that Margarito is going to pull it out because of his size, workrate, and better conditioning. Either way it should be a great fight.
Douchebag
QUOTE(jp @ Dec 21 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]371662[/snapback]
If the Cotto vs Clottey/Margarito vs Judah card comes off and the appropriate people win, who would guys take in a fight between Margarito and Cotto? Cotto is my favorite fighter right now, and I think he's much more fundamentaly sound than Tony, but Margarito's size and workrate are going to be very tough to deal with. Both guys come forward and both are there to be hit but, Cotto takes too many rounds off and I'm not sure he's going to have enough in his gas tank to go toe to toe with Margarito for 12 rds. I'll be rooting for Cotto to win for sure, my gut is telling that Margarito is going to pull it out because of his size, workrate, and better conditioning. Either way it should be a great fight.



Though there completely different fighters Cotto beats Tony for the same reasons PW beat him. Straighter punches and better fundamentals.
Southeastpaw
I agree. I really like Cotto and he continues to impress me. I was not too sure about the Judah fight quite honestly, and I was actually picking Mosley to win. And even though I had the Mosley fight a draw, Cotto surprised me with his speed and fundamentals compared to Mosley's. So, I can never count Cotto out, but I feel that Margarito would be a little too much for Cotto. I used to harp on Tony, but he is definitely durable and I gained a lot of respect for him in his loss to Williams. He gets stronger as a fight goes on and I can't ever remember seeing him hurt. Of course there is a first time for everything, but once Cotto sees that his opponent has taken what he has dished and is still coming forward, he will retreat. Although he does fight rather well going backwards. But Tony is just so strong in those later rounds whereas most are tiring. It will be a great fight if it takes off and I will be rooting for Cotto. But if I had to put money on someone, it would be Margarito.
Southeastpaw
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 21 2007, 04:39 PM) [snapback]371667[/snapback]
Though there completely different fighters Cotto beats Tony for the same reasons PW beat him. Straighter punches and better fundamentals.

Cotto does not have the reach, chin, or output that Williams has though. I think that played more a part of it than fundamentals. Tony has fought a few guys with better fundamentals, but he has come out on top.
Douchebag
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 21 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]371671[/snapback]
Cotto does not have the reach, chin, or output that Williams has though. I think that played more a part of it than fundamentals. Tony has fought a few guys with better fundamentals, but he has come out on top.



Clottey had those same disadvantages going into the fight and was still beating Tony's ass until he broke his hand because of his superior Technique. Also Clottey does not poses the the power that Cotto has and is not as good going to the Body. Tony is not going to be a crisp in the later rounds against Cotto as he has been with other opponents due to Cottos body punching. People say that Cotto's chin is question mark but I really don't think its a valid arguement since he has gone up to 147. He took flush shots from Mosley who was putting everything he had on those punches and he was not even hurt in the fight. I think his chin is good at 147 and it would take a perfect shot to hurt or KO him at that weight. A perfect shot that in my opinion Tony does not have skill or speed to land.
BigG
I think Cotto will land clean damaging left hooks and straight rights to Tony's face and he will really shake Tony up IMO. I think Margarito is above avergae but not elite...but his size and strenght does give him a good chance.
Douchebag
I think people are just taking Margaritos physical advantage and giving him that W at face value but we have to keep some things in mind. Eventhough Margarito (5'11) would be by far the tallest fight Cotto has fought he his arm length is actually shorter than Mosleys. Margaritos reach is 73 inches while Mosley who stands at 5"9 and his reach is at 74 inches. and even still it's not like Tony is some Jab Machine who is known for keeping guys out of his range. Tony throws wide, slow and looping punches which will give Cotto the opportunities he needs to get on the inside and do his damage.
Imperius3
Margarito would be a tough fight for Cotto, but I think Cotto could outbox Margarito and both counterpunch and slug it out with the Mexican en route to a victory.
JD
Cotto gets drawn into a brawl, and it comes down to chin.

Margarito in a great fight.
Douchebag
edit
Douchebag
QUOTE(JD @ Dec 21 2007, 05:42 PM) [snapback]371687[/snapback]
Cotto gets drawn into a brawl, and it comes down to chin.

Margarito in a great fight.



I can see a brawl breaking out in spots but I also see Cotto using more of his arsenal in the fight. In other words Brawling when he wants and boxing went he chooses also. I just see Tony getting hit more than he hits Cotto.
JD
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 21 2007, 05:49 PM) [snapback]371689[/snapback]
I can see a brawl breaking out in spots but I also see Cotto using more of his arsenal in the fight. In other words Brawling when he wants and boxing went he chooses also. I just see Tony getting hit more than he hits Cotto.


I think that early on, Cotto will land more than Margarito...no doubt.
Southeastpaw
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 21 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]371675[/snapback]
Clottey does had those same disadvantages going into the fight and was still beating Tony's ass until he broke his hand because of his superior Technique. Also Clottey does not poses the the power that Cotto has and is not as good going to the Body. Tony is not going to be a crisp in the later rounds against Cotto as he has been with other opponents due to Cottos body punching. People say that Cotto's chin is question mark but I really don't think its a valid arguement since he has gone up to 147. He took flush shots from Mosley who was putting everything he had on those punches and he was not even hurt in the fight. I think his chin is good at 147 and it would take a perfect shot to hurt or KO him at that weight. A perfect shot that in my opinion Tony does not have skill or speed to land.

I see what you are saying, and I really hope it pans out that way. I hope everything works out for this fight. But I am not sure I buy into Clottey hurting his hand. Margarito is known to be a slow starter, but he has been working on it. Margarito puts on incredible pressure. If Cotto can deal with the pressure and strength of Margarito for the long haul, we will see him take it. I just have my doubts. We will see.
streetlion1
I think Cotto wins without question! He is the better boxer, has more power, his chin is sturdy, and he just continues to improve overall. Margarito coming in with his slow punches will get battered and bruised all night long. especially to the body! Cotto by late round k.o.
neophyte7
Cotto would get KO'd. He is not elusive enough and would not be able to hurt Margarito. Cotto can be hurt to the body as Shane had him in retreat the last three rounds from body work. Margarito by KO. Styles make fights. Cotto is too short and not elusive enough...
The Original MrFactor
Margarito KO's Cotto within 7 rounds. Too big, too strong, too much pressure. Cotto almost folded when Mosley put the pressure on him. Margarito will be doing that all night. Many seem to dismaiss Tony as an unskilled home run swinger. Apparently you havent seen him fight much. The guy has a decent jab and decent defense. His footspeed is also underated. many judge him on the Clottey and Williams fights. Those were too tough fights. Against Clottey, he had a major ankle injury and also hurt his hand during the fight. The margarito that fought Williams was the typical hard core Margarito. he just got beat by a better boxer with insane physical advantages.

Cotto doesnt stand a prayer against Margarito...

BTW, i'm not sure Cotto gets by Clottey...
BrutalBodyShots
I'd take Margarito to wear Cotto down over the course of 9 or 10 rounds. I think Cotto hurts Margarito a few times early and does well for 2/3 of the fight, but starts to fold mentally when Margarito just keeps coming.

Kind of sucks if this fight happens, because in my view it will be Cotto's first loss, and that takes the luster out of a Mayweather-Cotto fight. And we already know Mayweather won't face Margarito, even if he beats Cotto IMO.

Douchebag
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 21 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]371716[/snapback]
I'd take Margarito to wear Cotto down over the course of 9 or 10 rounds. I think Cotto hurts Margarito a few times early and does well for 2/3 of the fight, but starts to fold mentally when Margarito just keeps coming.

Kind of sucks if this fight happens, because in my view it will be Cotto's first loss, and that takes the luster out of a Mayweather-Cotto fight. And we already know Mayweather won't face Margarito, even if he beats Cotto IMO.



For 2/3 of the fight Margarito will be eating alot of Bodyshots also. Theres no way that he is going to be fresh late in the fight after being clubbed to the body for more then half of the early rounds by Cotto. I just don't see that happening.
rusty_trombone
Cotto easily, Margarito will be ridiculously easy work for him. I haven't even read the thread, so I hope no one actually, legitmitately picks Margarito.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 21 2007, 09:59 PM) [snapback]371718[/snapback]
For 2/3 of the fight Margarito will be eating alot of Bodyshots also. Theres no way that he is going to be fresh late in the fight after being clubbed to the body for more then half of the early rounds by Cotto. I just don't see that happening.


Margarito has taken plenty of body shots from big guys over the years. Cotto without question has not taken the type of body punishment he would take from Margarito. The closest thing he's tasted to that was the body work he received in his last fight against Mosley, and it was enough to make Cotto very tentative for the last third of the fight.

Douchebag
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 21 2007, 11:37 PM) [snapback]371729[/snapback]
Margarito has taken plenty of body shots from big guys over the years. Cotto without question has not taken the type of body punishment he would take from Margarito. The closest thing he's tasted to that was the body work he received in his last fight against Mosley, and it was enough to make Cotto very tentative for the last third of the fight.



Name one fighter that Margarito has faced that is on the same level and is as committed to body punhing as Cotto. See, you can't discount that eventhough Margarito is teller he is very slow and leaves ALOT of opennings in there. Cotto is going to have free reign for most of the early and middle rounds and Margarito is pretty much just going to be taking beating. It's not like Cotto is Feliciano anybody who takes that kind of beating I don't care how durable is going to be pissing blood after the fight. Yeah, you can say Margarito is very durable but after taking 100 left hooks to liver over 6 or 7 rounds he is still going to fade the dude is just a man.
salvador
QUOTE(JD @ Dec 21 2007, 06:42 PM) [snapback]371687[/snapback]
Cotto gets drawn into a brawl, and it comes down to chin.

Margarito in a great fight.


That's exactly how I see it.
Blayde
I would pick Margarito.

Cant deny Cottos handspeed and outscoring skills looked impressive against Mosley but we also saw he could not really pressure him nor could he break him down and tag him relentlessly to the body. So in my eyes its pretty clear Margarito would be the one coming forward and looking to slug it out. And if they did, I think he would have the advantage.
Cotto would probably not be going to brawl with him, at least for most of the fight. Instead I believe he would move around and just try to outbox Margarito. Now it seems to be easier to outbox Margarito than to outbox Mosley what Cotto was able to do for 6 rounds on my scorecard in that fight. But I dont think it really is. Margarito is more of a pressure fighter than Mosley, hes just better in doing that. And I believe that would be good enough to force Cotto into a fight on a very high pace with a lot of inside fighting and Cotto having big problems with Margaritos punch output and strength.

I would see Margarito winning a decision, probably unanimous and if someone got knocked out, I think it would be Cotto.
Douchebag
Basing my opinion on the Clottey fight who for the most part just stood in front of Margarito and was beating his ass. I can see Cotto doing the same thing but being more effective because he hits harder.
singletrack
QUOTE(Southeastpaw @ Dec 21 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]371671[/snapback]
Cotto does not have the reach, chin, or output that Williams has though. I think that played more a part of it than fundamentals. Tony has fought a few guys with better fundamentals, but he has come out on top.


I don't think we have seen Williams get hit enough to say definitively that his chin is better than Cotto's. Also, 10 PW punches = 1 Miguel Cotto punch so I don't look at it in terms of raw numbers : )
singletrack
QUOTE(neophyte7 @ Dec 21 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]371694[/snapback]
Cotto would get KO'd. He is not elusive enough and would not be able to hurt Margarito. Cotto can be hurt to the body as Shane had him in retreat the last three rounds from body work. Margarito by KO. Styles make fights. Cotto is too short and not elusive enough...


Not elusive enough? He outboxed Shane Mosley during various points of the fight man.
singletrack
Listen to Conscience and Rusty - they have it right. Let's break this down.

Margarito strengths:

Big
Good Chin
Good Power
High Volume****

****Volume can be drastically decreased by being first or throwing a lot of punches - Clottey and PW.

Margarito Weaknesses:

wide shots, very little straight
below average jab and doesn't throw it much
very few uppercuts
Slow hand speed
Can't throw when his opponent does
Usually not first against quicker opponents
No ability to adapt - fights the same way all fight, every fight

Does anyone contest these statements? If you except these as a reasonable summary of Tony, then I can't see how someone can pick Tony over Cotto. So which of these are up for debate? Big and strong is not enough to win this fight IMO.

I can buy the argument that he will make it tough for Cotto at certain points, but to say that he will win by KO or beat Cotto up seems crazy to me. Clottey made Margarito look like total dogshit and I think Cotto is a MUCH more complete fighter. I know "styles make fights", I just don't see what Tony brings to the table in terms of style that is going to be unsolvable for Miguel. On the flip side, Miguel has proven that he can adapt as the fight demands and can do a lot of different things - brawl, box, parry shots, fight southpaw, etc.

Tony's wide shots will allow Cotto to do damage from the inside and outside. Tony's slow speed will allow Cotto to get the better of exchanges and land more punches than Tony. The three best weapons against Cotto are: great jab, straight shots, and uppercuts. These are all tools that Margarito either lacks or does not use.

This should be a great fight because neither guy holds (cough Mosley cough) and they both have bad intentions : )
salvador
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 11:03 AM) [snapback]371794[/snapback]
Listen to Conscience and Rusty - they have it right. Let's break this down.

Margarito strengths:

Big
Good Chin
Good Power
High Volume****

****Volume can be drastically decreased by being first or throwing a lot of punches - Clottey and PW.

Margarito Weaknesses:

wide shots, very little straight
below average jab and doesn't throw it much
very few uppercuts
Slow hand speed
Can't throw when his opponent does
Usually not first against quicker opponents
No ability to adapt - fights the same way all fight, every fight

Does anyone contest these statements? If you except these as a reasonable summary of Tony, then I can't see how someone can pick Tony over Cotto. So which of these are up for debate? Big and strong is not enough to win this fight IMO.


"Big" should be elaborated on. Tony has a 4" height advantage and a 6" reach advantage. Those advantages are very significant.

"Chin" - Tony's chin isn't just good, it's probaby the very best chin at 147. And though Cotto's chin is obviously sturdier at 147 than at 140, this is another HUGE advantage for Tony because both chins are going to be tested early and often.

I would also add "Stamina" to Tony's advantages. Tony can throw 100 punches a round for 12 rounds. I'm not at all sure Cotto can keep up with that pace.

Using Paul Williams as a measuring stick is useless because Paul is AT LEAST 6'1" (I think he's taller) and has an 82" reach and throws over 100 punches a round. At 5'7" with a 67" reach, Cotto ain't no Williams. I'd be very surprised if Cotto was able to keep Margarito off him the way Williams did in those early rounds. If he does manage to keep Margarito off of him it will be with his jab. But somehow I just can't see Cotto trying to outbox Tony for 12 rounds.

And I'd take Clottey's speed over Cotto's.

This would be an essentially pick'em fight and I could definitely see Cotto winning. But if Cotto wins this fight it will be because he was able to eat a hell of a lot of heavy right hands, and I just don't think Cotto's chin is up to it.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 22 2007, 07:13 AM) [snapback]371780[/snapback]
Name one fighter that Margarito has faced that is on the same level and is as committed to body punhing as Cotto. See, you can't discount that eventhough Margarito is teller he is very slow and leaves ALOT of opennings in there. Cotto is going to have free reign for most of the early and middle rounds and Margarito is pretty much just going to be taking beating. It's not like Cotto is Feliciano anybody who takes that kind of beating I don't care how durable is going to be pissing blood after the fight. Yeah, you can say Margarito is very durable but after taking 100 left hooks to liver over 6 or 7 rounds he is still going to fade the dude is just a man.


Cotto wasn't very committed to body punching against Mosley. You make it sound like Margarito is just going to stand there with his hands tied behind his back for the first 6 or 7 rounds. The size/strength that Cotto experiences against Margarito is going to be more significant than anything he has ever faced, and I believe that pressure will break him down late in the fight. This is totally a style thing in my view - Obviously I feel Cotto is a much better fighter but when matched with a guy like Margarito I see him having big problems.

BrutalBodyShots
BTW good post Sal.

Singletrack, discussing who wins a fight is a lot more complicated than just rattling off a list of bullet points of pros/cons for two fighters. Just because Fighter A has 3 pros and Fighter B has 6 pros doesn't mean Fighter B wins.

Douchebag
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 22 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]371808[/snapback]
Cotto wasn't very committed to body punching against Mosley. You make it sound like Margarito is just going to stand there with his hands tied behind his back for the first 6 or 7 rounds. The size/strength that Cotto experiences against Margarito is going to be more significant than anything he has ever faced, and I believe that pressure will break him down late in the fight. This is totally a style thing in my view - Obviously I feel Cotto is a much better fighter but when matched with a guy like Margarito I see him having big problems.



He wasn't committed to punching to the body against Mosley because he was weary of Shanes right hand. And rightfully so because Shane is so quick that Cotto had to ADAPT to the fight that night and show different dimensions to his game. Tony isn't quick enough nor is he techically sound enough to make Cotto make that kind of adjustment and thus I predict that we would see ALOT more body punching from Cotto if and when these two get in the ring together. In fact I could see Cotto not even worrying about Tony's head too much for first half of the fight.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 22 2007, 11:09 AM) [snapback]371811[/snapback]
He wasn't committed to punching to the body against Mosley because he was weary of Shanes right hand. And rightfully so because Shane is so quick that Cotto had to ADAPT to the fight that night and show different dimensions to his game. Tony isn't quick enough nor is he techically sound enough to make Cotto make that kind of adjustment and thus I predict that we would see ALOT more body punching from Cotto if and when these two get in the ring together. In fact I could see Cotto not even worrying about Tony's head too much for first half of the fight.


Possibly, but Cotto would be getting as good as he got in terms of body punching. Maybe Cotto is the best body puncher Margarito has faced, but Margarito has been at 147-154 for over 10 YEARS and has obviously been in with bigger, stronger likely heavier body punchers. Cotto has recently moved up from 140 pounds. I think a big factor in this fight is size/weight. I feel Margarito will simply be able to take it a little better to the body than Cotto... and MUCH better to the chin than Cotto.

If Cotto and Margarito were exactly the same size I would pick Cotto to win because like I said before he's clearly the more superior fighter.

singletrack
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 22 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]371809[/snapback]
BTW good post Sal.

Singletrack, discussing who wins a fight is a lot more complicated than just rattling off a list of bullet points of pros/cons for two fighters. Just because Fighter A has 3 pros and Fighter B has 6 pros doesn't mean Fighter B wins.


Come'on man, like I don't know that? I would hope you know that I don't just add up pros and cons to predict the outcome of fights.

Look at that list - those are all real issues and I don't see anyone making a compelling argument as to why Margarito is going to cause big problems. I think JD is on point when he says that Cotto could get pulled into a brawl and come out on the losing end. But I think he is short changing the intelligence of Miguel. Miguel circa 2005 brawls with Margarito, Miguel today is too smart.
JD
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]371819[/snapback]
Come'on man, like I don't know that? I would hope you know that I don't just add up pros and cons to predict the outcome of fights.

Look at that list - those are all real issues and I don't see anyone making a compelling argument as to why Margarito is going to cause big problems. I think JD is on point when he says that Cotto could get pulled into a brawl and come out on the losing end. But I think he is short changing the intelligence of Miguel. Miguel circa 2005 brawls with Margarito, Miguel today is too smart.


Nah...not short changing at all, I just think the guy's fighting spirit is undeniable. "You hurt me, I am coming back and going to your body RIGHT NOW!"
BigG
^ Yup.

This fight has a Chico-Castillo type war written all over it....Would definitely be FOTY if it happens. Both are hard punchers..Marga has the size and Cotto has the advantage in skills. They would really tear each other up on the inside. Margarito can DEFINITELY hurt Cotto...but Cotto is very heavy handed and he can hurt just about anyone with a crisp lefthook if they fight him inside.
singletrack
QUOTE(salvador @ Dec 22 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]371802[/snapback]
"Big" should be elaborated on. Tony has a 4" height advantage and a 6" reach advantage. Those advantages are very significant.


As someone already mentioned - Mosley had the same reach advantage and it wasn't a deciding factor in their fight. As already mentioned as well, he doesn't throw straight shots or have a significant jab, so the reach advantage is irrelevant IMO. Height might be a factor if Cotto were going after his head, but I don't think Miguel will care.

QUOTE

"Chin" - Tony's chin isn't just good, it's probaby the very best chin at 147. And though Cotto's chin is obviously sturdier at 147 than at 140, this is another HUGE advantage for Tony because both chins are going to be tested early and often.
Tony always has the puncher's chance of laying out Cotto, but I don't see him doing as much damage as he was able to do against Clottey. That body of work was pretty mediocre IMO.

QUOTE

I would also add "Stamina" to Tony's advantages. Tony can throw 100 punches a round for 12 rounds. I'm not at all sure Cotto can keep up with that pace.


I guarentee you his production will be way off in this fight. For one because Cotto will be first, and for another because Cotto will cause significant damage early in the fight. I think going lefty will also be a good tool to confuse Tony.

QUOTE

Using Paul Williams as a measuring stick is useless because Paul is AT LEAST 6'1" (I think he's taller) and has an 82" reach and throws over 100 punches a round. At 5'7" with a 67" reach, Cotto ain't no Williams. I'd be very surprised if Cotto was able to keep Margarito off him the way Williams did in those early rounds. If he does manage to keep Margarito off of him it will be with his jab. But somehow I just can't see Cotto trying to outbox Tony for 12 rounds.
I think it is valid, because although PW is a freak of nature and throws a ton of punches, he doesn't have much pop on those shots. Cotto throwing 60 punches a round will be a HUGE problem for Tony. I think the jab is going to land all night for Cotto.

QUOTE

And I'd take Clottey's speed over Cotto's.


Probably, but Clottey didn't look all that fast against Alvarez. I think Cotto times his opponents extremely well and if there is anyone who can be timed, it is Tony.

QUOTE
This would be an essentially pick'em fight and I could definitely see Cotto winning. But if Cotto wins this fight it will be because he was able to eat a hell of a lot of heavy right hands, and I just don't think Cotto's chin is up to it.


I think the betting odds will favor Cotto heavily if this fight ever comes around. Cotto has pretty respectable defense, and it will take speed that Tony does not have to get through it. ALL of the guys that have been able to hurt Cotto have had far better speed than Tony. I also don't think we'll see Cotto blindly trade in this fight which would give Tony the opportunity to land those big rights you mention.
singletrack
QUOTE(JD @ Dec 22 2007, 11:40 AM) [snapback]371821[/snapback]
Nah...not short changing at all, I just think the guy's fighting spirit is undeniable. "You hurt me, I am coming back and going to your body RIGHT NOW!"


You are certainly right about that, but Cotto is evolving and Evangelista is a huge factor in how he fights. EVERY time Cotto has sat and traded, Evangelista goes nuts. I think Miguel is realizing that there is a happy medium to be struck. Plus, if what you are saying were true, then Cotto would not have been able to stay away from Mosley and box for the latter part of their fight. Mosley did land some good shots late in that fight and Cotto did not get drawn into a war.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]371819[/snapback]
Come'on man, like I don't know that? I would hope you know that I don't just add up pros and cons to predict the outcome of fights.


Well you listed your pros and cons and then said "Does anyone contest these statements? If you except these as a reasonable summary of Tony, then I can't see how someone can pick Tony over Cotto."


salvador
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]371828[/snapback]
I think the betting odds will favor Cotto heavily if this fight ever comes around.


We definitely agree on this, and I think it will be an excellent time to invest in the inefficient market of sports gambling. Usually any stupidity reflected in the odds (like being able to get Floyd at -200 against a white guy with no jab who was moving up in weight) is wrecked by the huge spreads. Here there just might be enough people who don't understand just how dominating PW is and who place too much stock in Cotto's win over a 36 year old Mosley.

Hopefully this fight will happen, as I think it's the most violent the sport has to offer right now.
BrutalBodyShots
I'd be ALL OVER Margarito if Cotto opened as a 2-1 favorite. No hesitation at all at placing that bet.

Blayde
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 06:00 PM) [snapback]371828[/snapback]
As someone already mentioned - Mosley had the same reach advantage and it wasn't a deciding factor in their fight. As already mentioned as well, he doesn't throw straight shots or have a significant jab, so the reach advantage is irrelevant IMO. Height might be a factor if Cotto were going after his head, but I don't think Miguel will care.


I think something that shouldnt be forgotten is that the reach helps Margarito to keep his pace because he can throw his punches from a pretty long range. These long arms make it very difficult for his opponents to get away from his slugging attacks.

This example may sound a bit weird but look at K1 fighter Hong-Man Choi biggrin.gif Hes just big and his long range helps him when he punches into his opponents attacks or goes after them because its very difficult to get away from it. I dont think you always have to throw straight shots to capatilize of a reach advantage. The longer your reach, the easier it is to go after your opponent and the more difficult it is for the opponent to get out of the way.
Douchebag
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 22 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]371817[/snapback]
Possibly, but Cotto would be getting as good as he got in terms of body punching. Maybe Cotto is the best body puncher Margarito has faced, but Margarito has been at 147-154 for over 10 YEARS and has obviously been in with bigger, stronger likely heavier body punchers. Cotto has recently moved up from 140 pounds. I think a big factor in this fight is size/weight. I feel Margarito will simply be able to take it a little better to the body than Cotto... and MUCH better to the chin than Cotto.

If Cotto and Margarito were exactly the same size I would pick Cotto to win because like I said before he's clearly the more superior fighter.



See, this where we differ in opinion Cotto will be getting the better of the exchanges because of his superior skill just like Clottey was before he got his hand broken. Cotto is naturally big welterweight eventhough he moved up in weight from 140. He always struggled to make that weight and to be honest it takes alot for him to make 147. So it's not a given that Tony is going be stronger than him. I would say they are about the same in the strength department. The fact is this Shane has been fighting at 147 and 154 for almost 10 years himself and he didn't have any of the advantages that you mentioned so it really holds no water IMO.
Douchebag
I really can't understand how someone can say that Clottey is faster than Cotto when Cotto has just beaten probably the two fastest guys at welterweight. If anything they are the same but how can you say Clottey is faster when he hasn't fought anybody nearly as fast as Judah or Mosley.
singletrack
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 22 2007, 12:13 PM) [snapback]371835[/snapback]
Well you listed your pros and cons and then said "Does anyone contest these statements? If you except these as a reasonable summary of Tony, then I can't see how someone can pick Tony over Cotto."


Right. What I'm saying is that I see all these big issues with Margarito and only a few minor ones with Cotto. I don't see anyone talking about Tony's big flaws, just about how strong and tough he is. I'm wondering if people dissagree with these statements because I can't see how you can favor Margarito if you agree with that list.
singletrack
QUOTE(salvador @ Dec 22 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]371849[/snapback]
We definitely agree on this, and I think it will be an excellent time to invest in the inefficient market of sports gambling. Usually any stupidity reflected in the odds (like being able to get Floyd at -200 against a white guy with no jab who was moving up in weight) is wrecked by the huge spreads. Here there just might be enough people who don't understand just how dominating PW is and who place too much stock in Cotto's win over a 36 year old Mosley.

Hopefully this fight will happen, as I think it's the most violent the sport has to offer right now.


PW won a razor thin decision against a solid, but totally one dimensional WW. That doesn't qualify as "dominating" in my book - he still has a hell of a lot to prove.

A 36 year old Mosley is still one of the best WW in the world, so age is irrelevent.
singletrack
QUOTE(Blayde @ Dec 22 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]371865[/snapback]
I think something that shouldnt be forgotten is that the reach helps Margarito to keep his pace because he can throw his punches from a pretty long range. These long arms make it very difficult for his opponents to get away from his slugging attacks.

This example may sound a bit weird but look at K1 fighter Hong-Man Choi biggrin.gif Hes just big and his long range helps him when he punches into his opponents attacks or goes after them because its very difficult to get away from it. I dont think you always have to throw straight shots to capatilize of a reach advantage. The longer your reach, the easier it is to go after your opponent and the more difficult it is for the opponent to get out of the way.


I don't agree. You can either move and stay outside them like PW, or you can step inside them like Clottey. Either is an effective way to neutralize them. His reach might come into play at a few points during the fight, but I really don't see it being a key factor.
Thegreatequalizer
some things that people seem to be forgetting is that cotto tends to fight in spots. margarito builds his consistent pressure with each round. and something that got left off the bullet points about margarito is that he's a very good finisher.
salvador
QUOTE(singletrack @ Dec 22 2007, 06:24 PM) [snapback]371873[/snapback]
PW won a razor thin decision against a solid, but totally one dimensional WW. That doesn't qualify as "dominating" in my book - he still has a hell of a lot to prove.

A 36 year old Mosley is still one of the best WW in the world, so age is irrelevent.


I guarantee that you will never see Floyd or Cotto in with Williams - EVER. At 5'8" and 5'7" respectively, they would look rediculous trying to get inside of his 100+ punches a round. Look at the way Williams handled Mitchell and you'll have some idea of what kind of an obstacle Williams will be to any small ww. It's a size thing and there's no getting around it. The fact that Margarito was able to withstand the fire and make it a close fight says all you need to know about MArgarito.

Mosley hasn't been the same since the second Winky fight. He's slower and as much as I love him, I'm convinced that he was taking roids for years and has had to go off them in the past few years.

Southeastpaw
I'm pretty much with you on this sal. I would feel kinda weird puttin money against Cotto seein as how he is one of my favs, and I don't care for Margarito. But if the odds are right, and they are stacked against Margarito fairly heavily, I will HAVE to put some money down on Tony. Cotto has shown that he is not to be underestimated, but I feel that PW is the man at WW and will hand anybody there a defeat, and he even still had his hands full with Tony down the stretch. Cotto is definitely the more polished fighter clearly with better fundamentals and speed. But I believe Tony's strength, conditioning, chin, workrate, and relentless pressure will be too much for Miguel in the end.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 22 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]371869[/snapback]
See, this where we differ in opinion Cotto will be getting the better of the exchanges because of his superior skill just like Clottey was before he got his hand broken. Cotto is naturally big welterweight eventhough he moved up in weight from 140. He always struggled to make that weight and to be honest it takes alot for him to make 147. So it's not a given that Tony is going be stronger than him. I would say they are about the same in the strength department. The fact is this Shane has been fighting at 147 and 154 for almost 10 years himself and he didn't have any of the advantages that you mentioned so it really holds no water IMO.


I tell you what really holds no water... you attempting to argue that Mosley and Margarito are the same size since they both fight at 147 today.

Mosley started his career TWO divisions below the lowest weight Margarito has ever fought at. Mosley INTENTIONALLY bulked up 2 divisions (skipping an entire division... how often does that happen?) in order to chase bigger paydays. Mosley is a blown up lightweight/junior welterweight - just like Mayweather for that matter. Two smaller guys that can compete with (and beat) naturally bigger guys due to their superiority. Margarito has been fighting at his natural weight of 147-154 for over 10 years. Mosley has been fighting UNNATURALLY above his natural weight for some 8 years.

I'm not saying that it's a "given" that Margarito is stronger than Cotto. What IS a given is that Margarito being a 147-154 pound fighter for the last 10+ years has been in the ring with naturally bigger guys... If Cotto was working with middleweights to prepare for his fights at 140-147 Margarito was probably working with supermiddles/lightheavies. Margarito IMO is more accustomed to fighting bigger guys, so I don't see him being blown away by Cotto's size/strength/power. Cotto on the other hand in his last 3 fights at 147 has beaten guys that were once 135-140 pounders. Without question Cotto will be in the ring with the biggest/strongest fighter he's faced up until this point in his career. I don't see at all how standing toe to toe would favor Cotto under these circumstances.

And BTW, off topic Clottey didn't break his hand in the Margarito fight. You don't break your hand and continue to throw it with 100% conviction for the rest of the fight. Shit Clottey couldn't even get his own story straight as far as which hand it was that was questionably "broken" which was touched upon by the VS commentators just a few days ago.

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.