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Hodge
As I watched the fights this weekend, I was wondering who has the lost the most. I believe the person who lost the most is Chad Dawson. I mean, the guy is being heralded as the next great light heavy and Glen Johnson handled him. He has retained his title, but he lost a lot of leverage in whatever negotiations with Antonio Tarver, who can go on about how young he is and whatever. Just would like to hear your thoughts.
BoxingStill#1
He fought a Glen Johnson fight midway...if he had stuck to his plan the win would have been more convincing
kidbazooka1
Emmanuel Steweart the guy has been on a pretty bad loseing streak lately.
Method
QUOTE
Emmanuel Steweart the guy has been on a pretty bad loseing streak lately.
Yup. He's just SO fucking overrated. Never gets ANY flak thrown his way when his fighters lose and look bad, WHICH HAPPENS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!

Fight wise, I was going to say Kermit Cintron, because he got the piss beat out of him twice so far, and I think the two beatings arte the type that ruin you for good, or take a piece of your soul.

Fighter whose stock took a beating this weekend, I agree w the Chad Dawson. What a disappointment there. He shoulda lost.

salvador
I'd say Johnson. That was his last shot at big money. For a guy who's one of the most exciting guys at lhw, he's gotten the short end of the stick way too frequently. I don't think anyone will fight him now. Look to see him on ESPN once or twice more and then retire.

Dawson, on the other hand, just guaranteed himself a payday with RJJ, who, no doubt, is a lot more willing today to get in the ring with him.
D-MARV
I dont think Dawson lost that much Stock. Are you guys Underrating Glen Johnson? Glen Beat RJJ, Tarver and Woods (3 times in my opinion)! Chad won the fight! it was really close but I thought Chad won the fight. Glen is a tough S.O.B! The only thing I didnt like about the fight is that Chad said he wouldn't give Glen a rematch.
I think Cintron lost the most. He is done. I was giving him a chance coming into this fight but once the bell sounded for the first round I saw his eyes and he was scared to death.
Margarito gained alot. He should get his match with Cotto and that should be a great one.
But at the end of the day I have to say that Tarver had a great night! He beat Woods easily in my Opinion. I gave him 9 rounds! That was the best Tarver looked in quite some time. I look foward to see his next step! Hopefully against Dawson. That would be very interesting.
JD
I think Cintron did.

In the end, he was exposed as having the same breakable will, and inability to deal with pressure...Margarito did the exact same thing to a more polished version of him.
WindyCityP
QUOTE(Method @ Apr 13 2008, 02:13 PM) [snapback]386029[/snapback]
Yup. He's just SO fucking overrated. Never gets ANY flak thrown his way when his fighters lose and look bad, WHICH HAPPENS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!

Fight wise, I was going to say Kermit Cintron, because he got the piss beat out of him twice so far, and I think the two beatings arte the type that ruin you for good, or take a piece of your soul.

Fighter whose stock took a beating this weekend, I agree w the Chad Dawson. What a disappointment there. He shoulda lost.


I mean does Manny even bother to teach these fools any type of defense?
The CEO
Cosign on Steward losing the most...did y'all notice how he was in front of Cintron coming down the aisle?...as if THAT was gonna intimidate Margarito...

You're not great anymore, Manny. You're just a regular, dumb asshole....
Bandito
IMO, Cintron was the loser here. Even Gomez gave it his best. Cintron was pushed around and slapped like the little bitch he is. My homeboy made him almost cry again, lol

I watched it with some Boricua friends and they were saying he should turn his PR card in, haha

he was bullied by Tony from the get go, he even looked nervous and scared when he made his way to the ring. Kermit no has 0 credibility as a fighter
EpTXCHAMP
Without a doubt Cintron lost the most. He proved his critics right who questioned his will and resume the guy hasnt really fought anyone.
Second Cintron was only relevant in the welterweight division because of his IBF strap now that he doesnt have it where does he go?
hell fighters like mosley, zab will always be relevant cause of their names Cintron isnt a big name so he doesnt have that luxury. I think he goes to the back of the line haha sad but hey welter is too packed right now if your not a big name any loss will really set you back
Mean Mister Mustard
I am with the majority, Cintron was the loser tonight. At least he can punch, not a lot of guys will be able to take the shots he throws. Gomez showed that he doesn't belong in the same league as Cotto, but that's not bad. He is a good fighter and people root for him so he can still comeback and make some money. He'll probably get the call now to face JCC Jr or Andre Berto.

My advice to Gomez would be to fight some guys like Estrada, Urkal or Maybe even K9 Bundrage on ESPN and then take on a young prospect.
sTotheR
QUOTE(Hodge @ Apr 13 2008, 03:27 AM) [snapback]386000[/snapback]
As I watched the fights this weekend, I was wondering who has the lost the most. I believe the person who lost the most is Chad Dawson. I mean, the guy is being heralded as the next great light heavy and Glen Johnson handled him. He has retained his title, but he lost a lot of leverage in whatever negotiations with Antonio Tarver, who can go on about how young he is and whatever. Just would like to hear your thoughts.



I think this was actually good for Dawson, now he will get offers because he looked "beatable". Shit Tarver has already called him out because "Chad Dawson would be easy pickings now. He's not the same fighter he was before this fight. He's a wounded duck."

And you know everybody preys on the weak. Plus he was ready to take short money to take on Tarver before so I see him doing it again.
buford54
Johnson doesn't lose anything, IMO. He always seems to get jobbed on anything close, but that is also because he tends to fight to the level of his competition (top tier competition, anyway).
It doesn't seem to matter who it is...Tarver beats Woods, easily. Johnson split with both of them. But he's always in this situation. The fans always want him to fight, because he's great to watch...but nobody else will fight him because he takes them life and death.

Cintron lost his belt, but that's it, really. Not many people gave him a shot at Tony, and that first lost had so many questions hanging over his head, this was his chance to erase them. But he didn't, so he's right back to where he was.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that Woods lost the most. He lost his belt, and he looked below average to the American fight fans. I think there were high expectations because of his trilogy with Glen Johnson which most of us never saw...but if Johnson went life and death with Tarver and Woods...logic would dictate that Woods must at least be on par w/ Tarver.
He also lost his potential British superfight w/ Joe Calzaghe. Though that could happen if somehow Hopkins were to do to Joe what Tarver did to Clinton, and they could go on to have a battle of the losers.
But, if Calzaghe beats Hopkins and Woods had beaten Tarver, there would have been a market in the US for the fight, and he now blew that.
xxxxxx
QUOTE(buford54 @ Apr 14 2008, 08:56 AM) [snapback]386178[/snapback]
Johnson doesn't lose anything, IMO. He always seems to get jobbed on anything close, but that is also because he tends to fight to the level of his competition (top tier competition, anyway).
It doesn't seem to matter who it is...Tarver beats Woods, easily. Johnson split with both of them. But he's always in this situation. The fans always want him to fight, because he's great to watch...but nobody else will fight him because he takes them life and death.

Cintron lost his belt, but that's it, really. Not many people gave him a shot at Tony, and that first lost had so many questions hanging over his head, this was his chance to erase them. But he didn't, so he's right back to where he was.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that Woods lost the most. He lost his belt, and he looked below average to the American fight fans. I think there were high expectations because of his trilogy with Glen Johnson which most of us never saw...but if Johnson went life and death with Tarver and Woods...logic would dictate that Woods must at least be on par w/ Tarver.
He also lost his potential British superfight w/ Joe Calzaghe. Though that could happen if somehow Hopkins were to do to Joe what Tarver did to Clinton, and they could go on to have a battle of the losers.
But, if Calzaghe beats Hopkins and Woods had beaten Tarver, there would have been a market in the US for the fight, and he now blew that.



I agree. IMO Cintron wasn't expected to win this fight and he is right where he was after the first fight.Glen Johnson earned my respect once again so I don't believe he loses because the fans will always watch him because he brings a good fight everytime.Tarver was supposed to be washed up, but now he is back in the drivers seat by beating Woods.Woods loses the most.
rusty_trombone
it's gotta be cintron, it painfully obvious how shitty he is and how little he can handle pressure.
Tha Docta
i am not a big manny steward fan but i cant blame him for cintrons loss. jesus christ could have been in cintrons corner and it wouldnt have mattered.

cintron showed more toughness this time, but instead of crying he will be pissing blood for the next couple of weeks.
buford54
QUOTE(piper the great @ Apr 14 2008, 10:48 AM) [snapback]386186[/snapback]
imo GOMEZ lost the most. he was over hyped &got trashed. that was one of those trashing that make you question yourself (do i really belong here? we all knew he didnt but he believed he did) it might take him awhile to rebuild his confidience.

You are right in that Gomez probably lost the most self-confidence and most brain cells.

The worst part for Woods though is that I think most Americans wanted him to beat Tarver. Nobody likes the guy. He came to America looking to build a name for himeslf...and we all wanted him to succeed, because he was fighting one of the most hateable champs in history...and he still blew it.
CreDog
QUOTE(buford54 @ Apr 14 2008, 10:44 AM) [snapback]386200[/snapback]
You are right in that Gomez probably lost the most self-confidence and most brain cells.

The worst part for Woods though is that I think most Americans wanted him to beat Tarver. Nobody likes the guy. He came to America looking to build a name for himeslf...and we all wanted him to succeed, because he was fighting one of the most hateable champs in history...and he still blew it.



I don't think it was Gomez, he got his best payday and now he can probably live comfortably for the rest of his life if he makes the right decisions. Although he lost, it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to make that type of money-- although he did take a serious ass beating.

I think it was Johnson, although in the court of public opinon and message boards everyone thought he deserved the nod-- who is willing to fight him??? At least with a belt he'd have negotiating power, but now the big names won't go near him knowing that you'll be walking to hell and back. Without the belt, and we're speaking in the real world here, no one will go near him.

Dawson, on the otherhand might be the big winner because now everyone is WILLING to fight him based on the perceived vulnerability he showed.

Chi-Town
QUOTE
Emmanuel Steweart the guy has been on a pretty bad loseing streak lately.

QUOTE(Method @ Apr 13 2008, 07:13 AM) [snapback]386029[/snapback]
Yup. He's just SO fucking overrated. Never gets ANY flak thrown his way when his fighters lose and look bad, WHICH HAPPENS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!

Fight wise, I was going to say Kermit Cintron, because he got the piss beat out of him twice so far, and I think the two beatings arte the type that ruin you for good, or take a piece of your soul.

Fighter whose stock took a beating this weekend, I agree w the Chad Dawson. What a disappointment there. He shoulda lost.


I would agree that it was Cintron...Dawson still got a W on his record and still has big fights looming on the horizon, even though the decision was controversial, he hasn't really lost anything in terms of his future.

As far as Emmanuel, I think the statement that he is in a rut or on a losing streak is accurate....to say he's a bad trainer or overrated is a stretch, considering how after 30 plus years in the game this is his first real funk. I agree he and his fighters have been less than stellar over the past year, you can't just simply overlook his entire body of work. I've never heard of anyone going to the Hall of Fame in any sport being a fluke.
Tha Docta
whoever said clinton woods would be correct. even if johnson won his fight, he would still have trouble getting a high profile fight. cintron wasnt a good fighter before saturday, and wasnt a good fighter after margarito kicked his ass again. gomez got some good exposure on saturday and im sure he will be matched against some up and coming fighters where he can still make some money.

but since clinton woods lost to tarver, i dont care to see his face ever again. his stock took a huge hit.

looks like i will have to pin my hopes on tarver getting KO'd by the next guy that he faces. its been a dream of mine to see that man layed out unconcious.
D-MARV
I personally think that Cintron took the biggest hit but damn Clinton took a big hit as well...

And all this Bullshit about Steward being a bad trainer needs to stop! The man is a legend! Give him his respect
buford54
QUOTE(CreDog @ Apr 14 2008, 01:12 PM) [snapback]386203[/snapback]
I don't think it was Gomez, he got his best payday and now he can probably live comfortably for the rest of his life if he makes the right decisions. Although he lost, it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to make that type of money-- although he did take a serious ass beating.

I think it was Johnson, although in the court of public opinon and message boards everyone thought he deserved the nod-- who is willing to fight him??? At least with a belt he'd have negotiating power, but now the big names won't go near him knowing that you'll be walking to hell and back. Without the belt, and we're speaking in the real world here, no one will go near him.

Dawson, on the otherhand might be the big winner because now everyone is WILLING to fight him based on the perceived vulnerability he showed.


But that has been Glen Johnson's entire career! Even when he had a belt nobody wanted to fight him. If he got Dawson's belt he would have looked to unify against Tarver, but Tarver won't fight him a third time. He'd price himself out, saying that he really won both of their other fights. Glen would have to fight a few mandatories and probably retire out of disgust.

At least he still has the public sentiment with him, and people will tune in to watch him fight because he always gives great performances.

Woods blew his big shot at getting and American fanbase, and his potential Calzaghe fight, which was worth more money than any other opportunities that were out there for any of the rest of them...so he loses the most.
CreDog
QUOTE(buford54 @ Apr 14 2008, 01:23 PM) [snapback]386226[/snapback]
But that has been Glen Johnson's entire career! Even when he had a belt nobody wanted to fight him. If he got Dawson's belt he would have looked to unify against Tarver, but Tarver won't fight him a third time. He'd price himself out, saying that he really won both of their other fights. Glen would have to fight a few mandatories and probably retire out of disgust.

At least he still has the public sentiment with him, and people will tune in to watch him fight because he always gives great performances.

Woods blew his big shot at getting and American fanbase, and his potential Calzaghe fight, which was worth more money than any other opportunities that were out there for any of the rest of them...so he loses the most.



Great point about Woods, IF--- and that's a big IF Calzaghe got by Hop-- Woods was set up to fight Calzaghe.

I'll change my pick to Woods, but I still feel really bad for Johnson. The guy has been the wrong side of more close decisions than anybody.

BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(CreDog @ Apr 14 2008, 03:53 PM) [snapback]386227[/snapback]
The guy has been the wrong side of more close decisions than anybody.


One could argue that he's to blame for allowing the fights to be so close.

MarzB
QUOTE(Method @ Apr 13 2008, 07:13 AM) [snapback]386029[/snapback]
Yup. He's just SO fucking overrated. Never gets ANY flak thrown his way when his fighters lose and look bad, WHICH HAPPENS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!

Fight wise, I was going to say Kermit Cintron, because he got the piss beat out of him twice so far, and I think the two beatings arte the type that ruin you for good, or take a piece of your soul.

Fighter whose stock took a beating this weekend, I agree w the Chad Dawson. What a disappointment there. He shoulda lost.



Also . I've never heard of anyone going to the Hall of Fame in any sport being a fluke.[i]

Please see Ingemar Johannsen, Ken Norton (WTF till infinity), Drazen Petrovich (good player is in their mainly due to his tragic death) amongst plenty others. Hell there are people that will actually argue you that Arturo Gatti should be in the hall.

That said, ditto, ditto on Manny Stewart. I think he's a good trainer but I don't like the fact that for this millennium he seems to take on only ONE type of fight. Tall, lean, sleek guys. He does exactly the SAME thing or attempts to with them. Improve their jab (nothing wrong with that) and show them how to hold.

Now granted he's NOT the one executing the plan and often times in his loses, his fighters themselves have deviated from what he's said. Fair enough. Win some lose some no problem there.

However my problem comes with him during his COMMENTARY and how you can clearly tell the fighters he personally doesn't like but you look at his current stable and you're like, "ok you're telling me this guy you're talking about isn't as good as say ______"??

I've heard him say disparaging comments (style and boxing critique not personality) about Hopkins, Floyd, Winky Wright, etc. Meantime NONE of the charges he currently has are at that level save for Klichko and he'll be starched soon again too.

Another thing, he loves to OVER INFLATE his charges. I have no problem with a fighter losing, thats part of the game but when his fightes lose, they lose badly and it's like they get exposed. Read ANDY LEE.

I haven't seen Jonathan Banks fight yet so my opinion is out on him.

Legacy wise he's fine with me. Us both being Detroiters I don't have a problem there. Tommy Hearns, Jimmy Paul, Hilmer Kenty, even Mickey Goodwin are some of my favorite fighters and they were all Stewart charges.

That said I thought Cintron and Dawson lost the most. Gomez got beat the worse but he wasn't expected to win and that was such a mismatch it was gross at times to watch..
Method
QUOTE
However my problem comes with him during his COMMENTARY and how you can clearly tell the fighters he personally doesn't like but you look at his current stable and you're like, "ok you're telling me this guy you're talking about isn't as good as say ______"??

I've heard him say disparaging comments (style and boxing critique not personality) about Hopkins, Floyd, Winky Wright, etc. Meantime NONE of the charges he currently has are at that level save for Klichko and he'll be starched soon again too.

Another thing, he loves to OVER INFLATE his charges. I have no problem with a fighter losing, thats part of the game but when his fightes lose, they lose badly and it's like they get exposed. Read ANDY LEE.

I haven't seen Jonathan Banks fight yet so my opinion is out on him.

Legacy wise he's fine with me. Us both being Detroiters I don't have a problem there. Tommy Hearns, Jimmy Paul, Hilmer Kenty, even Mickey Goodwin are some of my favorite fighters and they were all Stewart charges.


EXAAAACTLY, Holmes. I mean, some of the comments coming out of his mouth are god damn jaw dropping. I read a recent (w/in the last 6 mos, call it) article on the net, and Manny commented on all the major fighter's he had who had lost, and he had a fucking excuse for EVERY NOE of them, and it was ALL blamed on the fighters. I mean, he went out of his way to accept any iota of responsibility whatsoever. It was nauseating! you hear all his excuses and blame on his fighters, and then how can you not think back to his shit about Tommy Heaarns getting massaged as the reason he fucking lost. I mean, gimme a fucking break.

Like I said in my official prediction on Margarito/Cintron, I am NOT saying Manny isn't a good trainer. He is. I am saying he is not as good as so many give him credit for. He's OVERRATED.
CreDog
QUOTE(BrutalBodyShots @ Apr 14 2008, 09:20 PM) [snapback]386270[/snapback]
One could argue that he's to blame for allowing the fights to be so close.



Very true. Right, wrong or indifferent it is the truth. I never said "bad decisions" just on the losing end.

Tha Docta
QUOTE(Method @ Apr 15 2008, 10:10 AM) [snapback]386297[/snapback]
EXAAAACTLY, Holmes. I mean, some of the comments coming out of his mouth are god damn jaw dropping. I read a recent (w/in the last 6 mos, call it) article on the net, and Manny commented on all the major fighter's he had who had lost, and he had a fucking excuse for EVERY NOE of them, and it was ALL blamed on the fighters. I mean, he went out of his way to accept any iota of responsibility whatsoever. It was nauseating! you hear all his excuses and blame on his fighters, and then how can you not think back to his shit about Tommy Heaarns getting massaged as the reason he fucking lost. I mean, gimme a fucking break.

Like I said in my official prediction on Margarito/Cintron, I am NOT saying Manny isn't a good trainer. He is. I am saying he is not as good as so many give him credit for. He's OVERRATED.



i dont think there is a trainer in the world that could have changed the outcome of cintrons fight. i agree that steward has become somewhat of a used car salesman recently, but i believe the guy is still one of the best trainers. every trainer goes through some rough patches like this. buddy mcgirt was supposed to be the next best thing since sliced bread and then his boys started to lose and everyone jumped off the bandwagon. training is a crapshoot and i wonder how much a trainer really influences a fight anyway if they havent trained the guy from the start of his career.
JakeNDaBox
Woods is a good pick IF there was a shred of validity to claims that he was next in line for Calzaghe (of course, if Joe beats Hopkins this weekend, by no means a given). But beyond that, I'm not sure anyone hoped for anything other than Woods beating Tarver last weekend. Nobody expected him to run the tables at light heavy, just to be a tough out for the top players though he didn;t even manage that against Tarver. If nothing else, he's a proven commodity against the rest - three toss up fights against Johnson, twice handling Julio Gonzalez - he's a Top 5/10-ish light heavyweight, no more. I'm not sure tha goes away after last weekend.

Cintron, on the other hand, has yet to prove he belongs among the division's best, and if nothing else has proven that he'll never make it all the way to the top, or that he'll ever be competitive w/ Margarito, much less ever beat him. For all of the talk of how much he improved under Manny Steward, his best wins remain against Estrada and Matthysse. Sure he can come back and beat a Top 10 contender somewhere along the way, perhaps even in his next fight. But any excuse he had going into the first Margarito fight lost any semblance of reasoning after last weekend.
JakeNDaBox
QUOTE(Tha Docta @ Apr 15 2008, 10:17 AM) [snapback]386302[/snapback]
i dont think there is a trainer in the world that could have changed the outcome of cintrons fight. i agree that steward has become somewhat of a used car salesman recently, but i believe the guy is still one of the best trainers. every trainer goes through some rough patches like this. buddy mcgirt was supposed to be the next best thing since sliced bread and then his boys started to lose and everyone jumped off the bandwagon. training is a crapshoot and i wonder how much a trainer really influences a fight anyway if they havent trained the guy from the start of his career.

i think the real debate is whether to use "is" or "was" speaking of Steward as a great trainer. It's no different than great/legendary coaches in other sports - their greatness as a whole can't be questioned, but there also comes a point where the game passes them by, and what they may have to offer doesn't work for the next batch of fighters.

Aside from his run as a gun-for-hire in the early/mid 90's, the only real success we've seen from Manny in nearly two decades is the heavyweight mold he's created, first from Lennox and now Wlad. Both became smarter fighters under his wing, though a certain amount of entertainment value was sacraficed in the process.
Big Slim Sweet
I don't think Gomez lost anything since he came into the fight with nothing to lose. He was supposed to be cannon fodder and that's what he was.

Cintron? The only thing he lost was more pride, if that's possible. I mean, Margarito can basically show up at Cintron's door any time he likes and say, 'Move over bitch. Daddy's home,' then proceed to ass-rape his wife while belting out a mariachi-inspired rendition of "Singing in the Rain" while Cintron's forced to sit helplessly in the corner sucking his thumb and watching with silent tears streaming down his face. He simply owns that man. Anything that's Cintron's, is Margarito's.

Johnson and Dawson are basically a wash. Dawson lost a tiny bit of credibility in some eyes but could wind up being the big winner if other money fighters now see him as beatable and step up to fight him. Johnson maintained his credibility and rep as a tough old bastard. The belt wouldn't have meant that much to him and he kept himself in line for another Showtime or HBO slot in the future, so I don't think he lost much at all.

I'd say Clinton Woods lost the most overall cause he looked like a washed-up bum in there. He barey offered any resistance and seemed satisfied with this being his cash-out fight.

Subsequently I'd say Tarver gained the most cause dude looked finished the last few fights and now has at least one more multi-million dollar payday ahead of him.
CreDog
Steward was one of the the greatest trainers I ever "saw"

He does have funny "Stewardisms" like--"I knew that was going to happen all along" or "The fight ended being the way I thought it was going to be"

Hodge
After watching the replay on HBO, I am thinking that Floyd took a Big "L" this weekend. On both fights, they were pretty much attacking his legitimacy of the welter crown at every turn. Most of their gripes were on point, but I think they are superceding hate especially Manny and Larry. If HBO gets on the "We hate Mayweather" bandwagon, it could spell trouble for a future showdown between Floyd and Cotto, because I can definitely see Money taking the ball and going home or retiring so to speak.
buford54
QUOTE(JakeNDaBox @ Apr 15 2008, 11:34 AM) [snapback]386305[/snapback]
Woods is a good pick IF there was a shred of validity to claims that he was next in line for Calzaghe (of course, if Joe beats Hopkins this weekend, by no means a given). But beyond that, I'm not sure anyone hoped for anything other than Woods beating Tarver last weekend. Nobody expected him to run the tables at light heavy, just to be a tough out for the top players though he didn;t even manage that against Tarver. If nothing else, he's a proven commodity against the rest - three toss up fights against Johnson, twice handling Julio Gonzalez - he's a Top 5/10-ish light heavyweight, no more. I'm not sure tha goes away after last weekend.

Cintron, on the other hand, has yet to prove he belongs among the division's best, and if nothing else has proven that he'll never make it all the way to the top, or that he'll ever be competitive w/ Margarito, much less ever beat him. For all of the talk of how much he improved under Manny Steward, his best wins remain against Estrada and Matthysse. Sure he can come back and beat a Top 10 contender somewhere along the way, perhaps even in his next fight. But any excuse he had going into the first Margarito fight lost any semblance of reasoning after last weekend.


There was a recent BBC article in which both Woods and Calzaghe stated that that was the fight they wanted provided they won their upcomings. Needless to say, that article isn't up anymore.
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