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The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Ok,

I'm new to the board so I thought I'd start with something reasonably controversial and get bitchslapped around a little.

I've been thinking about it for some time, but y'know for fear of a pounding never really aired this view before.

For me I think I might have to rate Ali as only my 3rd best heavyweight of all time.

I'd rate Louis as my number one based on his time at the top and number of title defences and Jack Johnson as my number two.

By all accounts that guy was a beast, simply unbeatable in his prime and never got half the opportunities that he should've. Hell he virtually had to chase the title half way around the world.

I'm not going to bother judging these guys on size etc (Louis would probably make fine cruiserweight today) or anything like that because you can only compete with the generation that you're in and i'm trying to get a feel for who was the best heavyweight given the period they fought in.

I know Ali fans will point to his time out over his Vietnam stance and thus we never saw the best of Ali, which I guess is true.

Certainly there is a vaild case to be made that Ali is the most historically and culturally important boxer if not sportsman in history but I sometimes wonder if it's this historical importance that possibly elevates his ranking as a boxer.

Please don't think I'm devaluing Ali's acheivements in any way, I still watch the Manila and Zaire fights with my jaw on the ground but I'll play devil's advocate and say number three for me.
The CEO
You have failed.
The CEO
lol.....jk...good first topic for you....welcome to the board btw...

I personally have Ali #1, Louis #2, and Holmes #3....Jack Johnson is a certain Top 5....
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Apr 29 2008, 11:13 PM) [snapback]388142[/snapback]
lol.....jk...good first topic for you....welcome to the board btw...

I personally have Ali #1, Louis #2, and Holmes #3....Jack Johnson is a certain Top 5....


larry 'jockstrap' holmes, hey there's a contentious one right there!!

not that he wasn't kinda useful or nothing.

do you think your decision was influenced in any way by the fact that there's a lot more high quality footage available on ali/holmes than say louis and certainly johnson?



The CEO
Mine wasn't influenced by that....but I can see where that might affect others' opinions.....especially in lower weight classes....

I believe that most "recognized" Top 10 Heavy lists have Holmes ahead of Johnson as well...
D-MARV
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Joe Frazier
9. Sonny Liston
10.Evander Holyfield
ROLL DEEP
For me, it's kinda hard to rate fighters like Johnson, as there is very limited footatge of them fighting.


The footage I've seen.....well, makes him look slow and scrappy. Not to say he wasn't good or anything....its just that he fought so different to 'modern' boxers. Totally different.

You look at Dempsey, Johnson...then watch Ali, Louis, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes-completely different!



I find it hard to rate the 'old-timers'. It obvious they were tough SOB's, with stamina and guts....but sometimes their styles look amatuerish.
CreDog
Based on his resume and how his career went down, I'd have to say Ali... He fought in an era where everyone fought each other.


My two FAVORITE heavyweights--- Tyson and Holyfield, granted these might not be the best.

I still can't believe Tyson was 21 when he was undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

Evander's heart and will always impressed me.

It's too bad that these two never got to fight in their absolute primes.





kidbazooka1
I have louis at #1 and Ali right behind.

The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(ROLL DEEP @ Apr 30 2008, 10:41 AM) [snapback]388181[/snapback]
For me, it's kinda hard to rate fighters like Johnson, as there is very limited footatge of them fighting.
The footage I've seen.....well, makes him look slow and scrappy. Not to say he wasn't good or anything....its just that he fought so different to 'modern' boxers. Totally different.

You look at Dempsey, Johnson...then watch Ali, Louis, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes-completely different!
I find it hard to rate the 'old-timers'. It obvious they were tough SOB's, with stamina and guts....but sometimes their styles look amatuerish.


that's kinda what i alluded to in my initial post. you almost have to take styles, weights etc out of it and just rate on their acheivements and the effect they had on the sport.

i suppose the reason i elevated johnson was due to the fact that because of his race the powers that be really stacked the board against him (not that they didn't do that to ali either).

i just thought it might be fun to throw a curve ball in there and rank ali at 3. of course if i ever met the guy the first thing out of mouth would be 'you're the greatest!!'
sweetchuck
I think most people agree that Ali and Louis are the top two heavyweights. Ali would school Jack Johnson. Louis would knock Johnson out. So they are top two. There really wasn't anyone for Johnson to fight. Yes he is a top five due to longevity, but I do find it hard to put him over Larry Holmes or Rocky Marciano. I guess that gives you my top five.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammed Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Jack Johnson
6. George Foreman
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander Holyfield
The CEO
^^^....same as mine if you flip Louis and Ali....it's widely accepted that either of them two can be #1....
sweetchuck
An interesting fight to think about though is George Foreman vs. Jack Johnson, both were hard punchers, great chins and didn't take a step back.
The CEO
That would be physical while it lasted...which I think would be no more than 5 rounds....Foreman by KO in a war where Johnson gets mad respect for his fearless stands...power, reach, and size would be just too much...it would be a beauty of a pummelling...with George taking some serious shots as well...
Rabbit Punch2
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Apr 30 2008, 04:44 PM) [snapback]388210[/snapback]
that's kinda what i alluded to in my initial post. you almost have to take styles, weights etc out of it and just rate on their acheivements and the effect they had on the sport.


That makes Ali #1. He beat them all in the Golden Era for Heavyweights. Who had more of an impact on the sport than Muhammad Ali?
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE(Rabbit Punch2 @ May 1 2008, 02:43 AM) [snapback]388263[/snapback]
That makes Ali #1. He beat them all in the Golden Era for Heavyweights. Who had more of an impact on the sport than Muhammad Ali?


Or Tyson?

If you're voting on who made an impact with the sport....
Tha Docta
if ur going to add larry holmes, u might as well add tyson since both guys dominated a shitty era with limited opposition.
D-MARV
QUOTE(ROLL DEEP @ May 1 2008, 11:43 AM) [snapback]388282[/snapback]
Or Tyson?

If you're voting on who made an impact with the sport....

They both had major impacts but the fact that Ali cleaned out the golden era puts him in the top slot for me!
BigG
I have Ali at #1 because of the level of competition he beat...he beat EVERYONE in his time, every great fighter, every worthy contender...hard not to rate Ali in the top 2.

In no order, these are the top 10:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Jack Johnson
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Evander Holyfield
George Foreman
Tha Docta
surprised to see holmes and tyson that high since both guys didnt really have the competition that others on the list had.
sweetchuck
Larry Holmes was in between era's, but he was dominate for so long. A lot like Lennox Lewis. Too many remember Holmes in his later years. If it wasn't for the losses to Holyfield, Tyson would be in the top ten. That's for me, but I do recognize the accomplishments of Tyson so early in his career.
Warlord
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Apr 30 2008, 09:12 AM) [snapback]388170[/snapback]
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Joe Frazier
9. Sonny Liston
10.Evander Holyfield

Patterson and Liston over Rocky Marciano? Really?
BigG
Replace Tyson and Marciano with Liston and patterson and that would be a really solid list IMO. Tyson has become very underrated..
Warlord
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ May 1 2008, 03:37 PM) [snapback]388308[/snapback]
I have Ali at #1 because of the level of competition he beat...he beat EVERYONE in his time, every great fighter, every worthy contender...hard not to rate Ali in the top 2.

In no order, these are the top 10:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Jack Johnson
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Evander Holyfield
George Foreman

Still surprised by the amount of hatred for the Rock. How can Jack Johnson be rated higher than Rocky Marciano? Rocky Marciano retired as the only undefeated heavyweight champion in the history of boxing, disposing of all-time greats Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore along the way.

Why is Jack Johnson rated above George Foreman, for that matter? George is one of, if not the hardest puncher in boxing history. He's a 2-time champ, and was the oldest heavyweight champ in the history of boxing. Some of you guys kill me with your rankings.

Jack Johnson was a bad man in his day, but let's not pretend he's better than he really was. I liked Unforgivable Blackness as much as the next day, and I always put Johnson on my favorite fighters lists, but let's not start ranking him so highly because he was such a cool cat. Let's just be honest, say he was cool, and move on. Putting him ahead of guys like Marciano and Foreman is crazy though.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
I often wonder how Ali's career would've been viewed if Dundee hadn't slashed his glove giving him extra time to recover against Henry Cooper who really had him in a world of hurt and ready to go.

And no I'm not English.

And I agree with biggeorge89 I also think Tyson has become very underrated.
Warlord
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ May 2 2008, 02:43 AM) [snapback]388349[/snapback]
Replace Tyson and Marciano with Liston and patterson and that would be a really solid list IMO. Tyson has become very underrated..

Agreed. What did Patterson do to deserve a ranking over Tyson? Mike Tyson is one of the more disrespected fighters in the game today. He gets shit for what happened to him past h is prime, while Ali gets the golden pass for what happened to him once he got old.
blackbelt2003
I'm surprised about the low rankings Holy is getting!!! The heavyweights had something of a golden era in the 90's. We didn't really think so at the time, but look at the roster now...Holy, Bowe, Tyson, Lennox. Man, that is not too far below the great 70's. And who was the man from 1990 to 1999, when Lennox finally beat him? EVANDER.


Anyway, here goes:


1/ Muhammad ALI
2/ Joe LOUIS
3/ Evander HOLYFIELD
4/ Larry HOLMES
5/ Lennox LEWIS
6/ George FOREMAN
7/ Joe FRAZIER
8/ Rocky MARCIANO
9/ Mike TYSON
10/ Ezzard CHARLES


PS: I don't generally rate old-timers, because a) there's little video to analyse (imagine trying to work out how good Tyson was if you only had, say, five rounds of him to go on), and cool.gif because of the video footage there is, you can see that boxing has changed so much, whereas it has changed very little from the 40's onwards.



Black
Warlord
QUOTE(blackbelt2003 @ May 2 2008, 05:33 AM) [snapback]388355[/snapback]
I'm surprised about the low rankings Holy is getting!!! The heavyweights had something of a golden era in the 90's. We didn't really think so at the time, but look at the roster now...Holy, Bowe, Tyson, Lennox. Man, that is not too far below the great 70's. And who was the man from 1990 to 1999, when Lennox finally beat him? EVANDER.
Anyway, here goes:
1/ Muhammad ALI
2/ Joe LOUIS
3/ Evander HOLYFIELD
4/ Larry HOLMES
5/ Lennox LEWIS
6/ George FOREMAN
7/ Joe FRAZIER
8/ Rocky MARCIANO
9/ Mike TYSON
10/ Ezzard CHARLES
PS: I don't generally rate old-timers, because a) there's little video to analyse (imagine trying to work out how good Tyson was if you only had, say, five rounds of him to go on), and cool.gif because of the video footage there is, you can see that boxing has changed so much, whereas it has changed very little from the 40's onwards.
Black

Ezzard Charles, another one of the Rock's victims. I still can't believe how so many cats see fit to leave Rocky Marciano off their lists, when he's beat most of the guys they are, or would, list in the top 10/20.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Warlord @ May 2 2008, 03:33 AM) [snapback]388346[/snapback]
Patterson and Liston over Rocky Marciano? Really?

Yeah!
If I was to do a top 20 I would include Rocky probably around the slot 11 or 12.
Rocky beat some greats but they were way past their prime.

Floyd Patterson's trilogy with Ingemar Johansson was good for his resume. Like Marciano, Floyd also KO'd Archie Moore. He also Ko'd Henry Copper.

What Liston did to Floyd Patterson was better than anything Rocky did in his career.
I just believe that Rocky beat a bunch a of great fighters who were past their prime. I don't even rank Tyson high because he was caught in a bad era. I think what Holyfield and Lewis did to him would have happen'd at any point in Tyson's career. Even the pre-Douglas portion.
Warlord
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ May 2 2008, 08:24 AM) [snapback]388363[/snapback]
Yeah!
If I was to do a top 20 I would include Rocky probably around the slot 11 or 12.
Rocky beat some greats but they were way past their prime.

Floyd Patterson's trilogy with Ingemar Johansson was good for his resume. Like Marciano, Floyd also KO'd Archie Moore. He also Ko'd Henry Copper.

What Liston did to Floyd Patterson was better than anything Rocky did in his career.
I just believe that Rocky beat a bunch a of great fighters who were past their prime. I don't even rank Tyson high because he was caught in a bad era. I think what Holyfield and Lewis did to him would have happen'd at any point in Tyson's career. Even the pre-Douglas portion.

What GREAT fighters did Lennox Lewis ever beat in his prime? He beat an aging, past-his-prime Holyfield, and an even far-more-past-his-prime Mike Tyson. Do you really rank a "prime" Michael Grant, a "prime" Shannon Briggs, or a "prime" Frank Bruno over any version of Joe Louis, Archie Moore, or Ezzard Charles? In addition to these "sterling victories," Lennox went on to take a controversial decision over Ray Mercer.

Perhaps it was Lennox's 2 devastating, one-punch KO losses to far inferior opponents that gives him the edge over Rocky; or his win on a technicality over Vitali Klitchsko (who was leading on the scorecards) that sealed the deal. Followed by a prompt retirement, despite all claims to the contrary that he wanted to fight both Klitchskos before he retired. ("One for breakfast, one for lunch" were his exact words.)

Anyway, it's all subjective anyway. It just seems some people get more subjective about it with Rocky Marciano than with other fighters. The fact that Rocky was the only undefeated champ in heavyweight history makes no bearing on subjectivity, I guess. Neither does the fact that he cleaned out his division, which was filled with hall-of-famers. And neither does the fact that he was a small heavyweight even by the standards of his own era, not to mention today's era, which would see him facing crusierweights instead of heavyweights.

And, finally, even a good portion of the guys on your list (and other all-time greats) rank Rocky Marciano among the top heavyweights in boxing history, but surely their opinion does not change the subjectivity of this debate either. Apparantly.

"Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't take that from him. Only because he depended solely on his left hook do I rate Joe Frazier below Marciano. Marciano could hit with both hands." - George Foreman

Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis." -Joe Frazier

"Ali was a tremendous athlete and he was the man for the sport. He brought the highlights, the money and everything to the sport, especially the art, the real good art of boxing. Ali is more my time. But before my time, it would have to be Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano." - Marvin Hagler

3 all-time great, HOFers lay it out for you. But what do they know? Nothing, I guess.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Warlord @ May 2 2008, 09:41 PM) [snapback]388425[/snapback]
What GREAT fighters did Lennox Lewis ever beat in his prime? He beat an aging, past-his-prime Holyfield, and an even far-more-past-his-prime Mike Tyson. Do you really rank a "prime" Michael Grant, a "prime" Shannon Briggs, or a "prime" Frank Bruno over any version of Joe Louis, Archie Moore, or Ezzard Charles? In addition to these "sterling victories," Lennox went on to take a controversial decision over Ray Mercer.

Perhaps it was Lennox's 2 devastating, one-punch KO losses to far inferior opponents that gives him the edge over Rocky; or his win on a technicality over Vitali Klitchsko (who was leading on the scorecards) that sealed the deal. Followed by a prompt retirement, despite all claims to the contrary that he wanted to fight both Klitchskos before he retired. ("One for breakfast, one for lunch" were his exact words.)

Anyway, it's all subjective anyway. It just seems some people get more subjective about it with Rocky Marciano than with other fighters. The fact that Rocky was the only undefeated champ in heavyweight history makes no bearing on subjectivity, I guess. Neither does the fact that he cleaned out his division, which was filled with hall-of-famers. And neither does the fact that he was a small heavyweight even by the standards of his own era, not to mention today's era, which would see him facing crusierweights instead of heavyweights.

And, finally, even a good portion of the guys on your list (and other all-time greats) rank Rocky Marciano among the top heavyweights in boxing history, but surely their opinion does not change the subjectivity of this debate either. Apparantly.

"Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't take that from him. Only because he depended solely on his left hook do I rate Joe Frazier below Marciano. Marciano could hit with both hands." - George Foreman

Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis." -Joe Frazier

"Ali was a tremendous athlete and he was the man for the sport. He brought the highlights, the money and everything to the sport, especially the art, the real good art of boxing. Ali is more my time. But before my time, it would have to be Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano." - Marvin Hagler

3 all-time great, HOFers lay it out for you. But what do they know? Nothing, I guess.

If you base your rankings on going undefeated then You have to list Rocky Marciano at the top. When doing my ratings I took in Quality of Opponents, Physical attributes, fight styles, the whole 9 yards!
The 10 guys that I have listed ahead of Rocky Marciano are 10 guys who I feel would beat Rocky granted they were in their primes. This is my opinion. I have nothing against anyone who rates Rocky high on their list. He was a great champ.

Im glad you brought in some quotes to support your argument.
But it's kind of funny that you left one out.
here you go!
D-MARV
I thought this was an intresting article.

this is only a piece of the article. Im posting it because this is how I view Rocky Marciano!

Consider that in the Dec. 1962 Ring magazine poll of 40 boxing experts it was Jack Dempsey that was rated the # 1 Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis 2nd, Jack Johnson 3rd and Marciano finishing a distant 7th, way behind Dempsey. If he was considered 7th in 1962 how does he propel to the top 5, when since then we have had Muhammad Ali who faced much tougher competition, the big power hitting George Foreman, Larry Holmes who made 20 title defenses, the bigger, faster and more powerful Mike Tyson, and the giant Lennox Lewis who at 6’5” 245 pounds would enjoy a 60 pound weight advantage over Marciano? This is a key point. Nat Fleischer rated Marciano at # 10, Charley Rose rated him at # 8, McCallum's survey of old-timers had him at # 9. No major historian who saw Maricano in their lifetime thought he was a top 5 all time heavyweight and 50 years have passed since Rocky retired as champion.

The caliber of opponents is most important in evaluating greatness. Tommy Morrison and Roy Jones, for example, looked great against lesser opponents but pitted against the top men of their class, their shortcomings in other assets were exposed and their ability was offset by other attributes that better opponents of theirs possessed. Marciano was never so tested because his level of competition was so weak.

Rocky Marciano was a great, but limited slugger who is admired for his toughness, endurance, conditioning and punching power. When rated against the other all time greats he compares to them in punching power only. He lacked the fundamental skills of Joe Louis, the quickness on attack of Jack Dempsey, or the quality of opponents of Joe Frazier. Marciano’s place can be argued amongst the top 10, but top 5 seems too high due to his lack of competitors. If Rocky were 48-1, he likely would not make the cut at all.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club

I still think it's unfair to use a guy's weight or style against him. When I started the thread I was debating rankings based on what they acheived in their respective eras, not what would happen if these guys actually fought each other.

After all, training techniques, diet, hell the whole human race has evolved significantly over the last 100 years and if we haven't all blown each other to bits can you imagine what we'll look like in another 100?

Heavyweights will probably be a routine 7 foot tall and weigh 300 pounds and fans will probably be saying 'man Ali was tiny he'd get crushed in todays era.'

Granted Rock was undefeated but his name victories came against guys who were slightly past their prime. After all Tyson does own a win over Holmes but most people accept it's not a 'real' win.

I'm surprised there isn't a little more love going around for Liston, especially as many fans (I'll include myself here) believe he wasn't allowed to fight Ali.








Warlord
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ May 3 2008, 12:10 AM) [snapback]388453[/snapback]
If you base your rankings on going undefeated then You have to list Rocky Marciano at the top. When doing my ratings I took in Quality of Opponents

Rocky Marciano fought (and DEFEATED) a better quality of opponent than did Floyd Patterson, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, and Larry Holmes. So this evidently didn't factor too high in your assessment.

QUOTE
Physical attributes
Physical attributes? Floyd Patterson and Jack Johnson would get pieced the second they stepped into the ring with a freak like Lennox Lewis or the Klitchsko brothers, not to mention a beast like a young Mike Tyson or David Tua. Does that mean Tua now reigns supreme over the Jack Dempsey's and the Jack Johnson's of the world?

Lennox Lewis suffered 2 devastating, one-punch KO losses? Does that count against his physical attributes? I know if Rocky ever suffered a one-punch KO, we'd be hearing about it from so-called boxing pundits from now until the end of time. Fortunately for us all, the Rock was as far from being a china-chinned bum as any fighter ever dreamed of being.

Rocky had ungodly stamina, ungodly punching power, an ungodly chin and ability to absorb large amounts of punishment, and he never let up from the first bell until the last. He went 15 hard rounds, throwing punches in bunches bell to bell, body and head; whereas fighters today can't even fight 12 hard rounds without taking long hugging breaks and fighting the other 1 and a half minutes in spurts.

Rock's only physical shortcomings are his size, and weight. All things which, realistically speaking, cannot be taken into account when considering a fighters all-time ranking. Otherwise you gotta leave Jack Johnson and Floyd Patterson off your list.

QUOTE
fight styles

Again, that "put up your dukes" style shit Jack Johnson was using would get him KILLED fighting guys from today.

Rock's fighting style, on the other hand, is timeless. That iron-chinned, plow forward, suicide bomber style of fighting spans generations, and can be a recipie for success IF the fighter's physical stature is suitable for it. Rock's was. Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, and George Foreman are all other excellent examples of fighters who have used that style.

QUOTE
the whole 9 yards!
The whole 9 yards, in theory, subjectively speaking, as long as it doesn't require any validation to back it up.

QUOTE
The 10 guys that I have listed ahead of Rocky Marciano are 10 guys who I feel would beat Rocky granted they were in their primes.

Jack Johnson would beat Rocky Marciano? Really? Truly? Seriously? You honestly believe this? Rocky Marciano would wipe his ass with Floyd Patterson and Jack Johnson. He'd most likely bomb Sonny Liston out late in the fight, because of Liston's bully mentality. In fact, I actually think, style-wise, Rock has more trouble with with fighters like Evander Holyfield and Joe Frazier than he does with Floyd Patterson, Jack Johnson, and Joe Louis.

QUOTE
This is my opinion. I have nothing against anyone who rates Rocky high on their list. He was a great champ.

Statistically speaking he was the best ever. Stylistically speaking he is a bad matchup for anyone. Physically speaking he had an unblievable set of tools to work with, and the stamina and work ethic to maximize those tools. In terms of accomplishment and competition, he was better than most of his peers. The only fighters who fought (and beat) better competition than Rocky Marciano on your list is Muhammad Ali. That's why I'm puzzled when you, and others here, consistently fail completely to list among your top 10 heavyweights

Boxingjunkie
QUOTE(kidbazooka1 @ Apr 30 2008, 01:33 PM) [snapback]388193[/snapback]
I have louis at #1 and Ali right behind.



Exactly how I would rate them also.
D-MARV
QUOTE
Physical attributes? Floyd Patterson and Jack Johnson would get pieced the second they stepped into the ring with a freak like Lennox Lewis or the Klitchsko brothers, not to mention a beast like a young Mike Tyson or David Tua
. and Rocky Wouldn't?

QUOTE
Lennox Lewis suffered 2 devastating, one-punch KO losses? Does that count against his physical attributes? I know if Rocky ever suffered a one-punch KO, we'd be hearing about it from so-called boxing pundits from now until the end of time. Fortunately for us all, the Rock was as far from being a china-chinned bum as any fighter ever dreamed of being.
You consider Lennox Lewis a china-chinned bum?

QUOTE
Rock's fighting style, on the other hand, is timeless.
Really? He was probably, pound for pound, the hardest puncher ever, but that's it. He throw wild shots, he footwork was horrible, he was slow and sluggish at times and had limited athletic ability

QUOTE
Jack Johnson would beat Rocky Marciano? Really? Truly? Seriously? You honestly believe this? Rocky Marciano would wipe his ass with Floyd Patterson and Jack Johnson. He'd most likely bomb Sonny Liston out late in the fight, because of Liston's bully mentality. In fact, I actually think, style-wise, Rock has more trouble with with fighters like Evander Holyfield and Joe Frazier than he does with Floyd Patterson, Jack Johnson, and Joe Louis.
I guess Rocky's life and death battles against Art Henry (13-15), Todd Lowry (62-56) a fight in which many people thought he lost, Willis Applegate (10-14), and his gift decision against Roland LaStarza (never saw this fight but many reports state the this was a horrible decision) cemented his legeacy. Face it dude, Rocky's legacy is built on beating old fighters whose reflexes were demolished enough that even a slow stomping Rocky can catch them. I dont know enough about Jack Johnson to defend him simply because I dont have enough film. But from what I have seen of him he was a freakish speciman that dominated his top competition. Rocky on the other hand failed to dominate his competition in many of his fights.

If you were to switch Joe Fraizer's list of opponents with Rocky's, Joe would be Undefeated and Rocky would proably have 5 or 6 losses.
Same can be said with Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston.
The fact that Rocky was undefeated is an amazing feat but that alone does not convince me to put him in my top 5 or even 10.
D-MARV
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ May 3 2008, 03:14 AM) [snapback]388455[/snapback]
I still think it's unfair to use a guy's weight or style against him. When I started the thread I was debating rankings based on what they acheived in their respective eras, not what would happen if these guys actually fought each other.

After all, training techniques, diet, hell the whole human race has evolved significantly over the last 100 years and if we haven't all blown each other to bits can you imagine what we'll look like in another 100?

Heavyweights will probably be a routine 7 foot tall and weigh 300 pounds and fans will probably be saying 'man Ali was tiny he'd get crushed in todays era.'

Granted Rock was undefeated but his name victories came against guys who were slightly past their prime. After all Tyson does own a win over Holmes but most people accept it's not a 'real' win.

I'm surprised there isn't a little more love going around for Liston, especially as many fans (I'll include myself here) believe he wasn't allowed to fight Ali.

Liston was a bad Mo' Fo. His first lose to Ali was legit but his second one was def rigged. Bad the result would have been the same. Ali's hand would have been raised somewhere along the mid rounds
Warlord
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ May 3 2008, 10:32 AM) [snapback]388472[/snapback]
You consider Lennox Lewis a china-chinned bum?

I don't consider Mr. Lewis a bum by any means.

QUOTE
Really? He was probably, pound for pound, the hardest puncher ever, but that's it. He throw wild shots, he footwork was horrible, he was slow and sluggish at times and had limited athletic ability.
He threw hard shots with bad intentions. That does not necesarrily equal wild shots. When I think of fighters throwing wild shots I think of Ricardo Mayorga. Rocky had a much more methodical approach to boxing. He was never looking for a one-punch KO. He ALWAYS worked the body, and he always threw in combinations. He hit whatever was available. And when nothing was available, Rock would just punch opponents in their arms and shoulders, until they were no longer able to raise their hands and defend themselves.

QUOTE
I guess Rocky's life and death battles against Art Henry (13-15), Todd Lowry (62-56) a fight in which many people thought he lost, Willis Applegate (10-14), and his gift decision against Roland LaStarza (never saw this fight but many reports state the this was a horrible decision) cemented his legeacy.

Find me ONE article that EVER states Rock fought "life and death" battles with Art Henry or Todd Lowry. Don't think just because you know how to type "boxrec" in your search engine that it is going to be enough to sit here and continue this debate.

As for Roland LaStarza, Rocky butchered him on both occassions. In their rematch he nearly killed Lastarza, hanging him on the ropes like a lifeless corpse.

"I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches." -Roland LaStarza.

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Face it dude, Rocky's legacy is built on beating old fighters whose reflexes were demolished enough that even a slow stomping Rocky can catch them.
That's shit, and you know it. What was Jack Johnson's career built on? Who did he ever beat? A middleweight Stanley Ketchel who had him on the deck? A washed up Jim Jeffries? And what of Joe Frazier? He had one win over a past-it Ali, and epic losses to ALi and Foreman after that. What? Does that make him more worthy than Rocky to sit atop the all-time heavyweight list? Frazier didn't think so. He ranked Rocky above himself on that list.

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I dont know enough about Jack Johnson to defend him simply because I dont have enough film.

But you know enough about him to proclaim him a top 5 heavyweight of all time???? WTF? laugh.gif

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Rocky on the other hand failed to dominate his competition in many of his fights.
Rocky retired as the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history. He has the highest KO% of any heavyweight champion in boxing history. He holds KO victories over Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Joe Walcott. WTF else would you define "dominant" as?

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If you were to switch Joe Fraizer's list of opponents with Rocky's, Joe would be Undefeated and Rocky would proably have 5 or 6 losses. Same can be said with Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston.

No. It can't. That's just your uninformed opinion.

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The fact that Rocky was undefeated is an amazing feat but that alone does not convince me to put him in my top 5 or even 10.

But a fighter (Jack Johnson) who has little real footage of his fights left can make it in your top 5 based on what you read? Whatever dude. Just admit leaving Rocky off your list was either error or ignorance, or both.
Warlord
Rocky Marciano KO's Jersey Joe Walcott for the title.




"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly. It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power."

-Ferdie Pacheco
BigG
Rocky could be top 5 for sure...but I think most of the guys in the top 10 would have beaten him (Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, maybe a PRIME Louis). But he beats Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, and most great Heavyweights before HIS time.
D-MARV

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Find me ONE article that EVER states Rock fought "life and death" battles with Art Henry or Todd Lowry. Don't think just because you know how to type "boxrec" in your search engine that it is going to be enough to sit here and continue this debate.
.Here's your one article!
From The Providence Journal, October 11, 1949 MARCIANO GETS DECISION OVER TED LOWRY ROCKY'S SHOWING IS WEAK AGAINST VETERAN BOXER Brockton Boy Just Weathers Early Storm, Then Foe's Attack Slackens By Michael J. Thomas There were strange developments and questions left unanswered as Rocky Marciano, undefeated young Brockton heavyweight was awarded a unanimous decision over Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven in their 10- rounder at the Auditorium last night. Marciano, in the first place, did not win the fight, as this observer saw it. This reporter gave it to Lowry, 6 rounds to 4, but this wasn't the dilemma-hardly. There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who came close to knocking out Marciano in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds, deliberately had bogged down in his attack after the 4th stanza. Many in the crowd felt he had. Asit was, the referee, Ben Maculan, warned Lowry 3 times to open up. In the 5th, he bellowed, ''Open up, or I'll toss you out'' and twice similarly threatened him in the 7th. If Lowry had not punched with the vigor he did in the first 4 stanzas, this observer unhesitatingly would say that Lowry intentionally slowed up. But Lowry punched as though bent on making a kill in the early stages. The wonder of it was that Marciano withstood the punishment he took. Lowry stung him with 2 terrific rights in the 1st. He rocked him with 2 vicious uppercuts in the 2nd, either of which would have finished a less durable boxer. And in the 4th, Lowry had Marciano in such a bad way that it appeared it would be only a matter of time before he would complete his kill. Lowry suddenly stopped using his uppercut after the 4th, however. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano. The crowd booed and Maculan, not liking what he saw, stormed at Lowry, who responded with an impassive look. It may have been that Lowry, 9 year ring veteran, tired. It may have been that he weakened from Marciano's unending body attack, but whatever the reason, there was an appreciable decline in his offensive operations in the 2nd half of the fight and it didn't look good to the crowd, nor to this observer.

I do more than just type up "Boxrec"

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That's shit, and you know it. What was Jack Johnson's career built on? Who did he ever beat? A middleweight Stanley Ketchel who had him on the deck? A washed up Jim Jeffries?

Yet you give Rokcy credit for fighting a washed up Joe Louis who was still giving Rock Hell!
Its not like Rocky fought any big Heavyweights!

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That's just your uninformed opinion.
That's my opinion and alot of other people as well!

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Just admit leaving Rocky off your list was either error or ignorance, or both.

Neither. Leaving Rocky out of the top ten was simply beacuse I found 10 fighters who I thought were better.
By THe Way, List your top ten!

Warlord
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ May 5 2008, 10:42 AM) [snapback]388630[/snapback]
.Here's your one article!
From The Providence Journal, October 11, 1949 MARCIANO GETS DECISION OVER TED LOWRY ROCKY'S SHOWING IS WEAK AGAINST VETERAN BOXER Brockton Boy Just Weathers Early Storm, Then Foe's Attack Slackens By Michael J. Thomas There were strange developments and questions left unanswered as Rocky Marciano, undefeated young Brockton heavyweight was awarded a unanimous decision over Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven in their 10- rounder at the Auditorium last night. Marciano, in the first place, did not win the fight, as this observer saw it. This reporter gave it to Lowry, 6 rounds to 4, but this wasn't the dilemma-hardly. There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who came close to knocking out Marciano in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds, deliberately had bogged down in his attack after the 4th stanza. Many in the crowd felt he had. Asit was, the referee, Ben Maculan, warned Lowry 3 times to open up. In the 5th, he bellowed, ''Open up, or I'll toss you out'' and twice similarly threatened him in the 7th. If Lowry had not punched with the vigor he did in the first 4 stanzas, this observer unhesitatingly would say that Lowry intentionally slowed up. But Lowry punched as though bent on making a kill in the early stages. The wonder of it was that Marciano withstood the punishment he took. Lowry stung him with 2 terrific rights in the 1st. He rocked him with 2 vicious uppercuts in the 2nd, either of which would have finished a less durable boxer. And in the 4th, Lowry had Marciano in such a bad way that it appeared it would be only a matter of time before he would complete his kill. Lowry suddenly stopped using his uppercut after the 4th, however. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano. The crowd booed and Maculan, not liking what he saw, stormed at Lowry, who responded with an impassive look. It may have been that Lowry, 9 year ring veteran, tired. It may have been that he weakened from Marciano's unending body attack, but whatever the reason, there was an appreciable decline in his offensive operations in the 2nd half of the fight and it didn't look good to the crowd, nor to this observer.


Nice article. It seems Mr. Michael J. Thomas is a little contradictory in his assesesment. He claims Lowry won the fight 6 rounds to 4, but admits that Lowry wore down badly after the 4th round, and did little but hold for the rest of the fight, even drawing warnings from the ref to fight or get disqualified.

He then surmises that "perhaps" Lowry was worn down from Marciano's brutal "unending" body attack. Lol. You think? laugh.gif In no way, shape, or form does this reek of a "life and death" fight. It reeks of an impartial observer stinging from the fact that an aging veteran succumbed to the youth and vigor of an up-and-coming brawler with an ugly style.

I did enjoy reading that article though, so thanks for that. Where did you find it, btw, because I'd like to read some more articles along that same line.

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Yet you give Rokcy credit for fighting a washed up Joe Louis who was still giving Rock Hell!
He wasn't giving Rocky hell. Rocky was carrying Joe because he was afraid to hurt him. Rock's corner was shouting over and over for him to open up, but he simply wouldn't comply, because of his immense admiration for Louis. Rocky's corner finally managed to convince him that he would be doing more damage by carrying Joe than if he just took him out. Rock then proceeded to promptly deposit Mr. Louis (nearly) out of the ring. And afterwards, it is said, he went to his dressing room and wept.

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Its not like Rocky fought any big Heavyweights!

Neither did Joe Louis, unless you count Primo. There simply werent' any "big" heavyweights at that time. Though Rocky himself was considered to be a "small" heavyweight, even in his own era. He was 190lbs, and had the shortest reach of any heavyweight champion in history.

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That's my opinion and alot of other people as well!
I've only seen you make this claim. No one else.

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Leaving Rocky out of the top ten was simply beacuse I found 10 fighters who I thought were better.

Rocky would've murdered Jack Johnson. Find me one person who thinks differently.

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By THe Way, List your top ten!


Because I've spent so much time lambasting you over your selection, I reckon it's only fair if I return the favor and put my own list up for scrutiny. Be warned though, I'm not married to this list and I won't waste much time defending it. If I wrote it again in ten minutes, you might find it quite different from the one you see now. I might kick Dempsey off in favor of Tunney, and I might leave Joe Frazier off altogether. Larry Holmes and his "in-between eras" ass might not make the cut, and George Foreman might drop out of the top 5 due to his stamina issues in youth, and age issues in... well... his age.

I list Ali, Louis, and Marciano as the top 3, in no particular order except alphabetical, because of the disparity in eras and physical dimensions. Those 3, especially Rocky, can't fairly be compared to each other because of size limitations/era discrepencies. Ali had the fortune of being born in the golden age of heavyweights, whereas Rocky has the fortune of being, statistically speaking, the greatest champion boxing has ever known. Whereas Joe Louis had both a great physical skill set and a cultural importance that continues to resonate with Americans, even today.

All that aside, my list:

1a) Muhammad Ali
1b) Joe Louis
1c) Rocky Marciano
4) George Foreman
5) Evander Holyfield
6) Lennox Lewis
7) Mike Tyson
8) Larry Holmes
9) Joe Frazier
10) Jack Dempsey

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