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The Boxing Fan
From what I'm seeing of people who go up and down in weight Chris Byrd may be the next victim of "Shock drop" or a loss of energy from losing muscle to go to another weight class. Jones, Tarver, and now Byrd look sluggish after coming down in weight. i know Bryd is older but he wasn't suppose to look like that people. Im not a big Byrd fan but he wasn't suppose to be beaten up like what happen Friday night. I just wonder what some of you think about Jones reasons/excuses for his performance after being a Heavyweight and the performances of other fighters who have moved back down from a heavy weight class
The Original MrFactor
Whats funny is to hear Tarver dance around the issue last night on FNF. He knows he cant use that excuse for why he lost to Hopkins.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ May 17 2008, 09:27 AM) [snapback]389909[/snapback]
Whats funny is to hear Tarver dance around the issue last night on FNF. He knows he cant use that excuse for why he lost to Hopkins.


Hmm, i missed that part
laugh.gif
buford54
Tarver has forever shot himself in the foot on that topic. He can't ever bring it up.
When you are as in shape as pro-fighters are, and you are putting on 15-20 pounds of muscle, you absolutely lose energy and strength.
I know when I was aspiring to go amateur before my gym closed down...I was at 190, in shape, and wanted to try to get down to LH. I dropped only 6 pounds and I lost all of the pop on my shots and felt a lot more lethargic then before.
I don't think you can change your weight THAT much between fights and not expect negative consequences.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(buford54 @ May 17 2008, 10:08 AM) [snapback]389918[/snapback]
Tarver has forever shot himself in the foot on that topic. He can't ever bring it up.
When you are as in shape as pro-fighters are, and you are putting on 15-20 pounds of muscle, you absolutely lose energy and strength.
I know when I was aspiring to go amateur before my gym closed down...I was at 190, in shape, and wanted to try to get down to LH. I dropped only 6 pounds and I lost all of the pop on my shots and felt a lot more lethargic then before.
I don't think you can change your weight THAT much between fights and not expect negative consequences.


It makes perfect sense also. even as football player in high school. I lost power in my legs as a result of weight loss

HaydelHammer
I tried to explain this years ago and was flamed and labeled as a excuse maker for Roy.

As soon as I heard roy say "he didn't use Mackie Shilstone (sp) to help him drop the weight to fight tarver in the first fight...."He just ran it off" ....I was like...it's a wrap!

you can't just "run off" muscle mass like that. Then I heard chris byrd say "I just ate once a day" "just up my running" .....it was like deja vu all over again.

the fact of the matter is when you are low in body fat and you have more muscular mass...that mass retains oxygen specifically for that weight you are at to maximize your performance. "Just running it off" and "not eating right" is the exactly what NOT to do.

should have actually ate more smaller meals, continue to lift more reps and THEN increase cardio over a longer period than just a few months depending on the weight loss.

basically when you "run off" like that you are losing oxygen since you are burning mostly muscle away which is oxygen thus why these guys look like mule sh*t when they taper off 15+ lbs of muscle like that and try to box at especially light heavy where you need speed and endurance as a requirement to survive.
Nobudius
This isn't a universal law though-I'm sure many of you have "played around" with weight while competing in sports. One of the challenges is finding your right weight-dealing with football, I see too many coaches & parents stress on "bulking up". What they SHOULD be doing is finding what is most comfortable. The most balanced.

In regards to RJJ, Tarver, & now Byrd, they were also relatively OLD. To "play around" at their respective ages was DANGEROUS, & it showed.

Also wanted to point out that these guys aren't adding PURE muscle.
MarzB
I disagree. I think it depends how it's done.

What isn't taken into consideration is that honestly Byrd hasn't looked like "Byrd" in a while. Realistically Byrd's last good performance was against Holyfield. He's had some spurts where he's looked good (and i'm not counting that Maranaccio fight) but overall he hasn't been sharp.

That said, combined with the fact he's older has a lot to do with it also.

Back to what I was saying, I think it depends on how it's done. Chris was done a bit too rapidly.

I personally wished guys would kill all this dehydration crap and just stay in shape and fight closer to their natural weights. Thats a pipe dream but I just wanted to add that.

sweetchuck
Then again Ricky Hatton is said to get up to around 190 lbs. between fights and Carlos Baldomir said he gets up around 220. There are a lot of fighters who go up and down in weight between fights. Jeff Lacy told me he's been as high as 215 before going into training camp. My point is, it does matter how you take the weight off, but it also matters how your body works and your style of fighting. Baldomir's big thing is he keeps coming forward with pressure and wears you down, there probably isn't a huge loss in speed because he doesn't have any, it's like the way Homer Simpson fought in that one episode. Ricky Hatton was smart enough to take four months of training to take the weight off, but he is now realizing that he can't go do the extremes anymore due to age.

I don't like the excuse of taking too much weight or over training especially when Byrd has been walking around at this weight for a month. I think Byrd has taken too many beatings and he's at the end of the road. It was exciting to be a Byrd fan at the prospect that he'll do well going down. He should have just used his name and waited for a good opportunity, fighting George was dangerous. Byrd couldn't keep up with the young fast light heavyweight. Plus Byrd kept telling everyone, I'm walking around at under 175, well that's not what most light heavies do. They walk around at 180-190, drop down in the week or ten days before the fight and the rehydrate back to 180-190. Either way, unless Byrd gets a very lucrative offer, he's done (as he should be), there's no reason to turn into an ESPN opponent.
The Boxing Fan
Marvin Hagler walked around at 160 and never had a problem making weight. He was a natural Middle weight. I wonder what is the difference between fighting weight and walking around weight. Oscar may make the same mistake if he is gonna be a welter again
rusty_trombone
i think the big difference is dedication, jones, hopkins, hagler, floyd, were or are very dedicated to training and walk around very close to the weight they fight at. guys like trinidad, castillo, hatton, de la hoya, (the list is long) are not all that dedicated to training, and don't do much unless they are in camp.

byrd, obviously, was not a heavyweight due to lack of training(like james "cheeseburger" toney), but due to a choice that he thought he was going to get paid up there. there is no way that you can eat once a day for a long time, do all that roadwork, and not be energy deficient. tack on his age, and the massive beatdowns he has taken(from fighters and the constant ass-raping of his man-wife), and it really is no surprise he is a shell of the fighter he was.
sweetchuck
I don't think it's fair to say that you are less dedicated if you don't walk around at weight. Some people just drop down from what they are normally for different advantages. With the exception of Hagler, the guys you mentioned at one time fought smaller than their walking around weight. Plus all of them have or will add weight once they are done with their careers. Byrd trained hard as a heavyweight, he would run marathons in between fights.
basicjab

The guy is old, koed every time on his losing streak, took some tremendous beatdowns in his last fights and during his career.

At this point for him, it is really not a point of weight loss, it is that he is simply used and abused, done. Going down to 175 was his last ditch effort of prolonging a career that should have end after his last fight, it would have been a good move if he had done it 15-20 years earlier, not as a dried up old man. His face looks like a crack whore.
Warlord
It's not losing weight that is the problem... it's the way you lose the weight. Cutting water weight is a decent (not great) way to drop some pounds to make weight because you aren't cutting muscle weight, only water, which is easily replaced through rehydration. But old guys ballooning up, specifically in muscle mass, and then dropping back down to the lowers weights is hell, because they have to cut that muscle they've added.

Ironically, it's the fat asses like James Toney, Roberto Duran, Naseem Hamed, and Ricky Hatton who can/could put on 100+lbs and cut it and still be fine, because they were only dropping fat, not muscle.

Haydel Hammer explained it better than me, and I really don't understand how this shit is even still a debate anymore. Cutting weight is detrimental to fighters if it is done incorrectly. Roy Jones is a perfect example, and so is Chris Byrd. Anyone who can't see this is just being a blind nuthugger.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(sweetchuck @ May 17 2008, 12:50 PM) [snapback]389938[/snapback]
Then again Ricky Hatton is said to get up to around 190 lbs. between fights and Carlos Baldomir said he gets up around 220.


No way do those guys hit those high of weights. Hatton is 5'6" tall. A 5'6" tall guy at 190 pounds is obese and would have all kinds of stretch marks and shit. Hatton in his "fat" pics that we've seen in my estimation is probably in the ballpark of 170-175 pounds MAX.

And Baldomir at 220? Show me a pic if Baldomir at 70+ pounds over his fighting weight. I'd love to see it.

sweetchuck
It was said during two of Baldomir fights about losing the weight going up to 220. Hatton at 190 was reported a few times. Look, I don't know if it's 100% true, but if THEY are saying it and not just the media, you have to put some value to it.
U.S. Champ
QUOTE(Warlord @ May 17 2008, 11:11 PM) [snapback]390008[/snapback]
It's not losing weight that is the problem... it's the way you lose the weight. Cutting water weight is a decent (not great) way to drop some pounds to make weight because you aren't cutting muscle weight, only water, which is easily replaced through rehydration. But old guys ballooning up, specifically in muscle mass, and then dropping back down to the lowers weights is hell, because they have to cut that muscle they've added.

Ironically, it's the fat asses like James Toney, Roberto Duran, Naseem Hamed, and Ricky Hatton who can/could put on 100+lbs and cut it and still be fine, because they were only dropping fat, not muscle.

Haydel Hammer explained it better than me, and I really don't understand how this shit is even still a debate anymore. Cutting weight is detrimental to fighters if it is done incorrectly. Roy Jones is a perfect example, and so is Chris Byrd. Anyone who can't see this is just being a blind nuthugger.

At least somebody knows what there talking about, educate these dudes warlord
Don Flamenco
QUOTE(HaydelHammer @ May 17 2008, 11:59 AM) [snapback]389932[/snapback]
I tried to explain this years ago and was flamed and labeled as a excuse maker for Roy.

As soon as I heard roy say "he didn't use Mackie Shilstone (sp) to help him drop the weight to fight tarver in the first fight...."He just ran it off" ....I was like...it's a wrap!

you can't just "run off" muscle mass like that. Then I heard chris byrd say "I just ate once a day" "just up my running" .....it was like deja vu all over again.

the fact of the matter is when you are low in body fat and you have more muscular mass...that mass retains oxygen specifically for that weight you are at to maximize your performance. "Just running it off" and "not eating right" is the exactly what NOT to do.

should have actually ate more smaller meals, continue to lift more reps and THEN increase cardio over a longer period than just a few months depending on the weight loss.

basically when you "run off" like that you are losing oxygen since you are burning mostly muscle away which is oxygen thus why these guys look like mule sh*t when they taper off 15+ lbs of muscle like that and try to box at especially light heavy where you need speed and endurance as a requirement to survive.


Quit being a fag making excuses for Roy.

That being said, you have the gayest sig in all history of all message boards... fag.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(sweetchuck @ May 18 2008, 02:44 AM) [snapback]390027[/snapback]
It was said during two of Baldomir fights about losing the weight going up to 220.


There's no way Baldomir at 5'7" tall gets up to 220 at times in between fights. Like I said, if you really believe that locate a pic of him at 220 and share it with the group.

rusty_trombone
QUOTE(sweetchuck @ May 17 2008, 06:47 PM) [snapback]389976[/snapback]
I don't think it's fair to say that you are less dedicated if you don't walk around at weight. Some people just drop down from what they are normally for different advantages. With the exception of Hagler, the guys you mentioned at one time fought smaller than their walking around weight. Plus all of them have or will add weight once they are done with their careers. Byrd trained hard as a heavyweight, he would run marathons in between fights.

i left byrd off the list, he made a choice to be a heavyweight. Guys like Hatton make a choice to be a fat ass in between fights. And guys add weight after their careers, because they stop training as much.
sweetchuck
The only reason to stay dedicated to be at weight when you don't have a fight scheduled is if you are a last minute type of guy or if you would have trouble making weight. There's no problem letting yourself go a little (and I'll admit there are fighters that go too far) between fights and put on 20-30 lbs especially if they're the type that takes 10 lbs off on fight week.
D-MARV
Joan guzman has been known too drain down to 130 from around 155-160
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ May 18 2008, 07:16 PM) [snapback]390111[/snapback]
Joan guzman has been known too drain down to 130 from around 155-160


I think that amount of weight drop is pretty standard across the board for most fighters. Cutting 10-15 pounds of water is the norm, and that only leaves him another 15 or so of real weight to lose which is easily done in a healthy way over the course of a few months.
Fitz
QUOTE(sweetchuck @ May 19 2008, 07:59 AM) [snapback]390098[/snapback]
The only reason to stay dedicated to be at weight when you don't have a fight scheduled is if you are a last minute type of guy or if you would have trouble making weight. There's no problem letting yourself go a little (and I'll admit there are fighters that go too far) between fights and put on 20-30 lbs especially if they're the type that takes 10 lbs off on fight week.


Bernard Hopkins never seemed too far off from his fighting weight even when he wasn't fighting. I think that's a reason for being successful with longevity.
Fitz
I saw an interview the other week, must have been an older interview, but it was with Jose Sulaiman (WBC president) and they were talking about how they changed the rule day before weigh in. The whole segment was really to try convince the people that don't have a clue about how these changes are made for the safety for fighters.
Absolute trash that it's safer for fighter to weigh in the day before.
STEVENSKI
I say weigh the fighters in 3-6 hours before they fight. If you want to starve & dehydrate yourself to a artificial weight then tough shit if you collapse in the ring. Same day weigh ins mean a fighter actually fights at their true weight class.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ May 18 2008, 10:41 PM) [snapback]390134[/snapback]
I say weigh the fighters in 3-6 hours before they fight. If you want to starve & dehydrate yourself to a artificial weight then tough shit if you collapse in the ring. Same day weigh ins mean a fighter actually fights at their true weight class.


Yup. I still think you'd get guys dehydrating though if the weigh in were even several hours before the fight, just not as drastically as if it were the day before.

sweetchuck
I happen to like how they do it in the amateurs where they weigh-in the day of, a few hours before and they don't fuss about actual weight divisions unless it's a tournament or something like that. If they are within 7 pounds it's up to the camps if they fight. I get sick of the, oh he's one pound over, go lose it. Like one pound is a major difference. I think if they are going to do a weigh-in the day before, they have to weigh-in the day of as well and if they are more than 10 lbs difference, they either don't fight or the guy who put on the most weight is fined with the money going to his opponent.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE(sweetchuck @ May 19 2008, 01:12 AM) [snapback]390147[/snapback]
I get sick of the, oh he's one pound over, go lose it. Like one pound is a major difference.


One pound of weight makes no difference, but having to LOSE 1 pound of weight makes a WORLD of difference. If you have a guy that's dryer than the Sahara desert that weighs a pound over and is forced to lose that last pound, he's going to have to go through hell to do so. The hell that he goes through will result in him being a lesser man in the ring the following day. For some it may not matter much, but for others it will mean less stamina or lesser resiliency in the ring. The effort one goes through to lose that last pound is much more meaningful, probably 100 fold over the physical weight of that pound.

sweetchuck
For a lot of fighters, yeah they are totally dry. It's really the division they fight in whether or not they'll have to play hell. It will effect a lightweight more than a middleweight. A lot of the time it's not going to make a big difference because if they are having that much difficulty making weight they will be weak anyway because they will have had to ran or spend the day in the steam room or something else extreme. I have seen so many fights where they are forced to go lose a pound or two and they come back a little bit later on weight and the next night they are fine. In fact that has the normal thing to happen rather than the exception.
The Boxing Fan
or the opposite approach. I suspect toney was a Cruiser weight or light Heavy all his life. But he was having a hard time making middle and Super Middle and when he went up to Light Heavy he was sluggish against Montel Griffin. Toney was a 200 pd Qb in High School so that tell you there was some type of conditioning'. I guess boxing conditioning takes the weigh off but at what cost.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ May 20 2008, 01:59 AM) [snapback]390249[/snapback]
or the opposite approach. I suspect toney was a Cruiser weight or light Heavy all his life. But he was having a hard time making middle and Super Middle and when he went up to Light Heavy he was sluggish against Montel Griffin. Toney was a 200 pd Qb in High School so that tell you there was some type of conditioning'. I guess boxing conditioning takes the weigh off but at what cost.

No, I suspect Toney was just a fat ass who liked to eat alot of cheeseburgers.
sweetchuck
Different types of training. In football, you're encouraged to bulk up and lift weights, in boxing you're encouraged to lose weight and do more cardio. Toney moving down was more to have a strength and power advantage, but yeah he always had a weight problem. That's why he did so many fights so quickly when he was a middleweight or super middleweight is because he always needed to be in training to stay on weight, look at what happened when he put a long space between fights.
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